Talk:John, Duke of Berry

Recent change of article title
According to Duke of Berry, the only other Jean to hold the title is John, Dauphin of France, Duke of Touraine, who was already Dauphin by the time "Jean I" died, & so will never have been Duke of Berry as his main title. The change was totally unnecessary, and only liable to lead to confusion. Nobody has ever referred to John II, Duke of Berry (a redlink until Surtsicna just created it now). I don't have the time to do the WP:RM now needed to restore the old name just now, but other comments are welcome. Johnbod (talk) 01:09, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Confusion can only be created when the title of an article can equally refer to two men. In this case, it can equally refer to this man and his nephew, John II, Duke of Berry. Has it ever crossed your mind that French Wiki calls him Jean Ire de Berry for a reason? You say that nobody has ever referred to "John II, Duke of Berry". That is not true. Please get your facts straight before jumping to conclusions.


 * Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy should also get his facts straight. John's title was not merely a courtesy title. It was an appanage, attached to the Duchy of Berry. Using ordinals to distinguish two namesakes who held the title is thus completely normal. Surtsicna (talk) 10:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You find TWO references in the whole of google books. In fact if you had looked at the first (some sort of typed paper), you would have seen that it clearly refers to the subject of this article as a commissioner of manuscripts, and cites a proper book which uses the plain name just like everyone else. Presumably it is a misprint. The 2nd one is equally puzzling, as it refers to "Catherine of France" marrying John II, Duke of Berry, but neither the subject of this article nor his (actually) great-nephew John, Dauphin of France, Duke of Touraine married anyone called Catherine.  In fact they mean Berry's son John of Valois, Count of Montpensier, who married Catherine of Valois, Countess of Montpensier (neice of the duc de Berry, aunt of Dauphin Jean) as a child, but pre-deceased his father, so was never "Duke of Berry", though he is also known as "John of Berry".  So both these references turn out to be mistakes, and you have yet to demonstrate any RS using John II, Duke of Berry, even in a family tree!   Many thanks to Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy for restoring the correct title.  Johnbod (talk) 12:16, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * If two are not enough, I can give you more. Besides, two is much more than nothing, as you claimed. Here's a RS referring directly and clearly to the Dauphin as Jean II de Berry. You obviously feel about this more strongly than I do, so I won't push towards precision and unambiguity anymore. But please don't claim that it is incorrect to call him John I when it's obviously not, for there were two Johns of Berry and two Dukes of Berry named John. Surtsicna (talk) 12:47, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But both those two are wrong, wrong, wrong! Neither refer to the "right" Jean II.  I can't read the highlighted bit in the new link (off the snippet, i can only see the top of the highlight), but obviously no one is going to refer to the Dauphin as the duc de Berry in general contexts. This is about the article title, using normal WP policies, not whether he actually was John I, Duke of Berry in an abstract sense, which I have no problem with. Johnbod (talk) 13:08, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Improved Referencing
This article only seriously cites a single article from Richard K. Emmerson's Key Figures in Medieval Europe: An Encyclopedia (2013), which is not a strong enough source for much of the material on this page. Numerous books have been written on topics touching on Jean de Berry, including a multi-volume series specifically on his life which is nowhere cited here. Much of the information on this page is not cited, there is a ton of information missing or overly simplified, and there are at least a few potential errors such as the date that Jean returned from captivity in England. Had I the time, I would re-write this entire article, but I do not at present. Some material on the reconquest of Poitou can be brought over from the French article, but other material, specifically relating to the Armagnac-Burgundian Civil War, needs further expansion. His role in the Cabochien Revolt is not stated, nor are most of his activities after 1392. Jean was also not lieutenant of Normandy, Philippe le Hardi was, so the duke had nothing to do with the Harelle (he was in Languedoc at the time). Jean's formal title in the south was "lieutenant en Languedoc" and he did not lose that title when Charles VI took power in 1388; indeed, he actually went to Languedoc during that time. In other words, there are a lot of issues with this article that need to be improved. I recommend as a starting point Françoise Lehoux, ''Jean de France, duc de Berri. Sa vie.'' 4 vols. (Paris: Picard, 1966-1968). – Whaleyland ( Talk •  Contributions ) 06:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

House of Valois-Burgundy
I may be missing something obvious to an expert, but how is John, Duke of Berry identified as a member of the House of Valois-Burgundy?

That cadet branch of Valois starts with his brother Philip.

If John had left a male lineage after him they would normally be considered another cadet branch like those of his brothers, probably under the name Valois-Berry. But he didn't.

Should not John, consequently, merely be identified as a son of John II and a member of the House of Valois? Random noter (talk) 21:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course. Surtsicna (talk) 23:07, 7 August 2018 (UTC)