Talk:John Bauer (illustrator)/Archive 1

Travelling
It is said that Bauer was considering travelling by train instead of a ferry, but ironically reconsidered as he regarded it as an unsafe means of transport.

This needs to be checked up with a reference added. --213.100.253.219 20:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Done, the Swedish wikipedia even has a pretty nice article on the train accIdent that deterred him. I don't know if it's noteworthy enough to be translated, though. - O bli (Talk) ? 22:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Charcuterie
In Sweden? Would delicatessen be more accurate? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm from sweden, and the word is "Charkuteri" in Swedish, and the english form is at least "charcuterie" and "pork butcher's shop". Source: http://lexin2.nada.kth.se/cgi-bin/swe-eng

Regarding John Bauers pictures
The names of these paintings (and therefore also the file names) are actually exact quotations from the section of the story they are illustrating. I just translated them and formatted them correctly. These quotes/names are a part of the Swedish cultural heritage and I think it only proper that they should be done right. - W.carter (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * @Krenakarore:  In the article as well as in the caption at the picture the translation is that Tuvstarr gazes down into "the fishpond". I would suggest this should be altered to "the forest tarn". A fishpond is usually something artificial and contains fish but a forest tarn is something natural and usually contains no fish at all. The words "forest tarn" is also used in the file name of the picture and is the official name of the picture. - W.carter (talk) 09:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * @EditorInTheRye:  Yes I know how to do it, but I have noticed that this article is very well guarded, and since I am still a newbie I thought it might be polite to explain my edit in case there are any objections. - W.carter (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * @W.carter:  Your suggestion goes straight to the point. No need to justify whatever, just briefly explain your move so that everybody knows what you mean. There is no such thing here as "permission to do whatever" once this is a free encyclopedia ! You can turn the article inside out if you want, as long as you improve it the way that you did before by keeping it clean and in order. The readers out there say: Thank you Mr. Carter :) !  Krenakarore  TK 13:47, 12 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Quite a lot of pictures were removed by an IP vandal. Added them again. Don't know if your captions work now. Hafspajen (talk) 10:16, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

How about this one for a compromise?
The kind of gallery used it is a bit awkward when it comes with long captions... Also the size is to small now that the pictures can be wieved properly. Using width=250 together with height=120 makes a gallery that leaves a lot of empty space unused. This one has a header, that means it will not be necessary to add "Illustrations from the childrens' anthology Among pixies and trolls all the time. Reduced the size a bit, from 200px (as it was in the article before the vandalism) to 180px. And I added Carter's captions back. How about this then? Also in general one tries to avoid placing a picture BEFORE a title, it would be better to have Princess Tuvstarr gazing in the pond to right size not left, and use thumb or little bigger then thumb size. Move right. Hope that I get a response soon. Hafspajen (talk) 13:05, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * As I said, it's good to work with people of common sense and a sense of compromise to the readers out there. Your considerations go straight to the point and make the article even better than it was. Thank you Mr. Halfspajen, it feels good to work with you. How about 3 more pics to fill out the third row ? Krenakarore  TK 13:22, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, move in this one. Hafspajen (talk) 13:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * A big thank you to Hafspajen for additional editing of the text and for reverting vandalism, and to Krenakarore for fixing the gallery. As soon as you are finished I'll take a look at the captions of the old and the new pictures to see if there is anything to add. Best, - W.carter (talk) 14:27, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * OK. Hafspajen (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * There are four more pics there Mr. Carter. Can you do the honor please and see if you can fill in the missing parts ? Thanks, Krenakarore  TK 14:30, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Can we please just work one at the time on the gallery, please. I am loking for more pictures, and you said you leave it to me, Krenakarore. You said so yourself. Some of it you added found too, will add - thoug better files. And Illustrations from the childrens' anthology Among pixies and trolls'' is fairly well displayed and complete. Hafspajen (talk) 14:32, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * You're losing your temper Mr. No blank spaces, please. Krenakarore  TK 14:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I will gladly take a look at the new pictures and all. I'll just wait until the dust from your work has settled down a bit. We are all fond of this article and only want what it best for it, but one more editor right now would just cause a mess. So, the article is not forgotten even if my input will be in a day or so. Best, - W.carter (talk) 14:40, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I am working in a separate sandbox, one can't have a lot of ? ? ? in the article while it has eyes on it. The article is under revision, because of the nomination . And I liked the ones you found. Just reverted to a stable version. Hafspajen (talk) 14:42, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I envy your serenity Mr. Carter :) ! Yes, Wiki is always an ongoing changing process, as we know well ! Krenakarore  TK 14:45, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, I didn't really understand why you removed one of the pictures, Trolls and Princess Tuvstarr 1915 - Krenakarore ... Hafspajen (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't remember removing. Humans commit mistakes, you know. Krenakarore TK 15:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Check your diffs... Well, if it was a mistake, that is better. Hafspajen (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * That's not removing Mr. Halfspajen, this is called WP:NOTIMAGE. Why the need for twelve pictures once there's already a link to Commons there (which is the proper place for pictures) ? You've chosen the pictures on Bauer's article, their size, the type of gallery used... is there anything else I can do for you ? Krenakarore  TK 18:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Too many pictures
I have no axe to grind here but this article has far too many pictures. Three examples in the gallery would suffice. Additional pictures don't add anything and, per the relevant guideline, interested readers can click on the Commons link if they wish to see further examples of Bauer's work. Philg88 ♦talk 20:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * A thinking head... agreed. A single row would do better. I also wonder what is happening to other articles such as Bland tomtar och troll, which should already have been moved to Among Gnomes and Trolls. And, Halfspajen, John Bauer "consensus" might come to be quite different from Rembrand's. Krenakarore  TK 20:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Per the title guidelines it should undoubtedly be moved. Philg88 ♦talk 21:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * 12 pictures in the gallery is not too much for an art article. See Rembrand. Hafspajen (talk) 20:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because it's done somewhere else doesn't mean that over use of pictures is good adherence to policy. Philg88 ♦talk 21:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Galleries are NOT discuraged any more. It is not against the policy. Please read for example discussion at Talk:Charles Marion Russell. Also see WP:VAMOS. Hafspajen (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm ... WP:VAMOS says: "These galleries should relate clearly to the text and be proportionate to it" and "A Wikipedia article gallery should not just replicate a Commons gallery for the sake of it, but needs to use the images with editorial judgement". This article, much as I don't wish to decry the subject, does not have the repute, nor indeed the length, of the Rembrant article to justify this number of pictures. Philg88 ♦talk 21:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello, and  A small suggestion. May we maybe keep the number of pictures in this article low, for now. I have expanded the Bland tomtar och troll with the complete list of stories, so maybe more pictures could be used there in connection to the stories in the list and a main to the Bland tomtar och troll be placed at this article. And vice versa. With two articles so closely related, there is no need to use the same pictures in both articles, the articles could be complementing each other. And in time, when this article is expanded, some more pictures could be added later. I am currently on a little sidetrack from my art articles, but I will give this article my full attention in a not too distant future. I have been studying John Bauer and his work (among some other artists) on and of for over 30 years so I think I can add some things to it. I have also completed the captions on the pictures requested by Hafspajen on my talk page. My very best to all of you, - W.carter (talk) 22:46, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Under construction.
I understand that there is some nomination at stake here. So all of this is ‘just’ to make a picture more noted?!? Ok, very well. An article is not made better simply by adding more pictures, it is made better by adding more information, more text and making it all look good and more encyclopedic. And it should be properly references... two of the four refs were dead links. Setting the picture in it’s right context. Instead of thrusting the Tuvstarr picture at the readers as soon as they start to read the article, I have given it a proper and very special setting where it belongs. The article IS about the artist John Bauer and not about the Tuvstarr picture. I had not planned to work on this article right now, but since there seems to be some kind of hurry, I will work on it during a couple of days. Make JB more notable and you make his work more notable. I have already expanded and sorted Bland tomtar och troll, please look at the talk page, and it will become a complement to this article. - W.carter (talk) 21:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, this is as far as I got today. I'll do the 'Artistry' section tomorrow. - W.carter (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅...for now. Lots of new text making more pictures justified. I hope, but some could definitely be deleted. The article will have to be copy edited, checked, tweaked and check again, but now we have something proper to work with. I will revisit it numerous times later since there are still things to add, but I hope it will do for now. My best to all of you, - W.carter (talk) 19:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I also installed an archive here at the talk page, but I am unsure of how the moving of the text is done. Some help would be appreciated. The sooner we get all of this sorry mess out of sight the better. This kind of conduct may be tolerated at the House of Lords (yes, I've seen some debates on the telly) but certainly not at an Encyclopedia. - W.carter (talk) 10:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Do you think you could help me with this. I don't know if I should install a Bot for it (or what settings to use for it) or move the conversation manually. Thanks, - W.carter (talk) 15:21, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

@W.carter:  ✅

Copy edit
I've rewritten the intro to active voice and grouped similar info together, and Early life and education are updated. I shifted some refs for readability. I think they are still straight. Alrich44 (talk) 13:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello Alrich44! So, about your edits: If you accept an article for CE at the Guild, please place a marker at the Request page to let others know that you are working on it. When doing a CE here you should preferably just correct sentences, look for bad WP mark up, point out missing facts etc. not start to re-write the article or introduce new facts. If you think it's that bad you should send it back to the editor with a note of your objections.
 * Hi, thank you for the constructive feedback. I've come to appreciate John through this article. Him and I share several things in common, so he does deserve the best article we can do for him. I did not place a marker because I did not want to take an official CE role considering my experience level. At the same time, I wanted to help and provided a CE note to more explain how I came to be editing this article. Alrich44 (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The first part, the lead, is a short summery of things in the text. Nothing should be mentioned there that is not in the text. If you want new material in the leade you must also introduce it in the article.
 * The most glaring thing to me in the leade is the redundancy of his death. I would hope someone would rewrite that part of it. Alrich44 (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * In one of your edits you introduced the history and geography of Jönköping in the lead, and even such a small comment as "an old southern-Swedish trading center" must be referenced if mentioned in an article that is due for GA review. This is not a self evident fact. And if included, it should be in the article not in the lead. The link to Jönköping is quite sufficient. That's what links are for. Readers click on them if they want more facts.
 * Point taken. I thought adding more about the setting of his life would add to it, maybe more should be added into the article so that it fits in the lead. Alrich44 (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The length of the lead should also be in proportion to the article. You moved so many things from the main area to the lead so that the article became top-heavy.
 * You wrote "oil painting" where it was written "oil sketch". If you are not an artist, you may be unfamiliar with the fact that some artists do sketches in oil before they make an oil painting. The picture is of the oil sketch and not of the resulting oil painting. The article also mention that Bauer sketched in oil, this should have been a clue. This can serve as an example as to why copy editor should not correct facts in the text, just write "What??"
 * I am an artist. I have not sketched in oil, but I can see why you would want to keep an emphasis that this was only a sketch.


 * You started to describe a charcuterie when the link to that article takes care of that. (See above)
 * I'm thinking this is a matter of style. I know when I was reading the article, it slowed me down to go find out what it was. I'm fine with relying on the link. Alrich44 (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Switching which should be first, Swedish or English name of "Among Gnomes and Trolls" was good. Nice catch! That was good CE. I will fix that. It's things like that you should be looking for in a CE here. :)
 * Thanks. There are two other places I did this. I was kind of in the middle of which one should be first. Even though this is an English article, it is about a Swedish artist.


 * This is a biography about Bauer and not an article about his art, therefore the pictures of the art may be numerous but should not be dominating, like the one you enlarged to 300px just below the infobox. A good article should actually also look nice, be pleasant to look at and not contain things that are distracting.
 * I can see why you would think it was distracting. I'm relying on your judgement on its size. I would think that putting the best picture he has in here up toward the introduction would be good, but it doesn't matter that much to me. Alrich44 (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The pictures in the different sections are chosen very carefully to illustrate the section and the diversity of Bauer. The aquarelle in that section was chosen since it represents another part of Bauer's artistry, not the usual "Gnomes and Trolls", they have their own article. The Lappland pic is in every book, and in the article, described as mediocre work, and should not be used as an example up in the main text.
 * Another example of style. I considered the Lapland painting a better one, but again I don't feel strongly about it.


 * Spotting the double mention of Lappland in one of the sentences was also good. Pure CE. But the resulting edit should have been more precise. I will fix that.
 * The thing you added last to the lead, "—the lake of his childhood" was really unnecessary. We are not sentimental here at the Wikipedia. People die, period.
 * I thought it fit well, drew the reader in, and was transitional to his early childhood. Alrich44 (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

A lot of critique, sorry, but I hope this does not discourage you too much. There is just so much to learn here at the Wikipedia. I still consider myself a newbie in most things, but I have also picked up a lot thanks to good coaching by senior editors. Hope you have someone to bug with questions about WP. That really helps. :) Best, w.carter -Talk  20:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem. Thanks for the coaching. Alrich44 (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok. One more "coach thing": When answering a bulleted list like this one, preferably answer with a similar bulleted list to match mine in one single place. I getting cross eyed trying to sort out what comments are yours and which are mine. :) Best, w.carter -Talk  21:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I just want to interject that this kind of interaction is what Wikipedia is all about - two committed editors working together for the good of the project. Well done both of you! Philg88 ♦talk 21:50, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Because believes another CE will soon join this effort, I'm going to stop editing it for now. Good luck on the GA. Alrich44 (talk) 17:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment about his death
As so rightly mentioned in the previous section the bit about his death and the ship is a bit lengthy for a biography. But there is a reason: In the Swedish Wikipedia the accident has an entire article of its own. See this if you can read Swedish. That article is not yet translated to English. The ship wreck was one of the most noted accidents in Sweden at the time, because of the number of deaths and Bauer being killed. When/if the article is translated and present here at the English Wikipedia, much of this section will be transferred to that article. This is sort of the "reverse info-situation" to Jönköping (see above section). w.carter -Talk  22:17, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Schools
I've swapped the two other Swedish/English titles because of the agreement on the style for this article. They are not 100% clear to me yet, so I'll let you (W.carter) sort them out. Per, the institution's names should follow title capitalization rules, but I could not locate online how much of the name is officially in the title. I believe the English and Swedish capital letters should match each other too. Alrich44 (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Jönköping Public School of Higher Education (Jönköpings Högre Allmäna Läroverk) --online I believe this in English is the Jönköping University.
 * The Jönköping Technical School (Jönköpings Tekniska Skola)

A third... Agneta och sjökungen ("Agneta and the Sea King"). That was sad. Alrich44 (talk) 23:29, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * None of the schools exist today, so no exact translations to English are to be found. A "Läroverk" is definitely not the same as a university. :) Remember, this was almost a century ago. The school system in Sweden has been revised and altered many times since then. Swedish and English use capitals in very different ways, not always the same way. And please refrain from personal remarks when you find flaws in the text. (Remember: Keep it civil). w.carter -Talk  13:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi W.Carter, The "sad" part was about his story, nothing about very minor swapping of titles. As I said before, I can see the titles going either way because it is a Swedish story. I've entrusted the article to you because of your great investment and caring about it. I do appreciate learning about Swedish capitalization and the historical naming of schools.


 * Is the university on the same site as the one in the story? Other people may be interested too. I've found when people will even travel to an area to follow someone's footsteps they've come to admire, just as I've come to appreciate the effort you are making for John. His own family and generations to come will probably appreciate your work too and may revisit the places of their fathers' father. Alrich44 (talk) 05:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is a sad story. (Sorry about the misunderstanding.) And the time it was considered a national tragedy, hence the media coverage and the macabre tour. Sweden was in mourning. Bauer is to Sweden what Beatrix Potter is to Britain. I do not know if the schools are at the same place. You have to ask someone who knows the history of Jönköping. And if someone goes to Jönköping they will have no trouble locating the heritage of Bauer, the whole town is invested in their great son! But such things do not belong in this article. You just Google it. I know about these "pilgrimages". When I wrote Einar Jolin I was astonished by the number of hits on Google I got at one of his old addresses, Fiskargatan 9 Stockholm, but it had nothing to do with Jolin, it was all connected to Lisbeth Salander. :) Anyway, in the old system a "läroverk" was something you went to and graduated from before going to university. Bwt, this is not "my work", it's just a compilation I've made from many books written by real writers and researchers about Bauer. This is the way the Wikipedia works. We do not "write", we convey. We are editors, not authors. Best, w.carter -Talk  11:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Leade
Not so good: Painting the Swedish nature, forests, mythical creatures and magical places, he is best known for his illustrations of the children's fairy tales. Reasond: First, I don't believe an native US English person would say, "Painting the Swedish nature, forest,...." Second, When a sentence starts with action, then the rest of the sentence would normally be a result of that action. Instead, the above sentence goes on to list another thing that John painted. I would list the kinfs of things John painted, and then say what he did best.

I'm not clear why the death is written about twice in the leade, unless you are trying to exactly summarize the main article. When it is condensed this much though, I don't believe it is warranted. To me, just a matter of style, I would have two or three following paragraphs. One talking about his art, and one talking about his family. Since he and his family passed on together and the subject of the paragraph is people, I would group the family and their death in one. If this is done, then their death would be the natural end of the leade.

The extent of writing about the ship wreck makes sense to me, and I can see why it could become another article.

Leade example:

John Albert Bauer (4 June 1882 – 20 November 1918) was a Swedish painter and illustrator. His paintings include portraits, natural Swedish landscapes, mythical creatures, and magical places. He is best known for his illustrations in the early releases of Among Gnomes and Trolls (Bland tomtar och troll), an anthology about Swedish folklore and children's fairy tales.

Bauer was born and raised in Jönköping, the son of a respected food manufacturer. At 16, he moved to Stockholm to study at the Royal Swedish Academy of Arts. During his years at the academy, he received his first commissions to illustrate stories in books and magazines. He met artist Ester Ellqvist at the academy, and they married in 1906.

Early on, Bauer traveled to Lappland, Germany, and Italy. Influences from the cultures he encountered became vital to his works. He painted and illustrated in a romantic nationalism style with influences from the Italian renaissance and the Sami culture. Most of his works are prints and watercolors in monochrome or muted colors due to the printing techniques at the time. His artist expressions also included major oil paintings and frescos.

Bauer was still developing as an artist exploring these techniques when at the age of 36, he, Ester and their son, Bengt, drowned in a ship wreck on Lake Vättern. Alrich44 (talk) 00:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "...the Swedish nature..." and "natural Swedish landscapes" are not the same thing. See: Nature. But the flow in this text is good. I will use most of it. w.carter -Talk  14:21, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

✅ w.carter -Talk  15:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Swedish nature
Hi W.carter, If/when you have the time, I'm curious what Swedish nature is in Swedish art. I know what nature is. In America, I'm used to a couple major painting subjects being portraits and landscapes. Then I suppose there are city/urban settings. Landscape doesn't translate well into saying a person painted a picture of a tree, but it's America's way of saying the person likes to paint nature.

I see the article is coming along nicely. Alrich44 (talk) 05:35, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello, Alrich44. Not an easy task you have given me. :) It's like being asked to describe Zen in three short sentences and maybe a bit outside my area of expertise, but I'll give it a try. The Swedish concept of nature is one of the most difficult things for a non-Swede to understand. It involves many spiritual and ethereal aspects, without being religious. Most Swedes do not consider themselves very religious, but they do tend to have an almost religious approach to the Swedish nature. It is like nature has a spirit or soul of its own, bordering on the concept of Gaia (mythology) or even Kami, and that has to be captured in paintings of Swedish nature, as opposed to painings of natural Swedish landscapes. When you look at the painting you have to experience how it feels to be in a place like the one depicted, the feeling of sunlight on your skin, the cold smells that emerges at dusk, how the wind makes you shiver, the way the color of the light tells you what time it must be, how awed you feel when looking up at the stars, how comforting the soft moss can be on a cold stone, etc. Not easy things to capture in a painting, and certainly not easy to understand if you have not experienced it, or grown up with it.


 * Let's try an example. The first picture below is a photo of a Swedish tarn. This is what they look like. Pretty, but that's all. The second picture is a study of a pond (not exactly a tarn, but it will have to do for now, the selection at Commons is limited) by another famous artist, Anders Zorn. It is a very good painting of a natural Swedish landscape, but without a "soul". And last Bauer's tarn. The essential elements for nature are exaggerated: this is how dark a tarn seems when you stand by it, how looming and obscure the woods behind you feels but you are sheltered from harm by the great mossy boulders, it contains only two birds symbolizing the quiet presence of animals watching you, the hinted ripples on the pond suggesting that something might be lurking in its depths, etc.


 * There are of course other ways of depicting the Swedish nature, to say "this is in Sweden" in a painting that only someone who has grown up there recognize. This can be seen in another painting by Zorn (to the right). We only have to look at it to know that it's a painting of an evening in June. There are some clues. The light is dimming to a bluer hue. Outsiders might think that the painting is just too dark. One look at the flowers tells us that it's in early summer. We may not know the names of the flowers but we recognize the mixture and how developed the different species are. The plants and the trees are slightly blurred, telling us that the evening breeze (always present at large bodies of water in Sweden) is still around.


 * Hope I have been able to convey something of the concept. Nature is also a very personal thing, so others might choose to describe it differently. If one were to describe it more thorough, it could easily fill volumes and I am by no means a scholar on the subject. It is also trick to translate the very word nature. We do not use the general word "nature" but say "The Nature" to distinguish it from other kinds of "nature". But writing it like that would seem ridiculous in an English text, so we have to settle for the next best thing: nature. I am certainly not the first writer facing this problem, preferably we just avoid talking about the whole thing to avoid all misconceptions. But since this article is about a superstar in the "The Nature-depicting-department", it is unavoidable. I would probably get a lot of critique from my fellow countrymen if I did not at least try to include it. Best, w.carter -Talk  10:26, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hellooo W.carter, well I'm surprised and very pleased that I asked and you took the time to explain this so fully. I do believe I understand and connect to all you've shared. Having grown up in Montana as part of a Swedish family, it helps explain some of my origins at a deeper level. We gravitated more toward experiencing nature than toward a formal church. I've spent much time in the outdoors/outback, so all your descriptions are very real to me. I also have some Native American in me and in my family. They connect in a similar way with other spiritual beliefs. I enjoy the little I know of Zen, in some ways similar to connecting with nature. I'm extremely pleased we have met and you have shared this with me. To me, I would create a section to explain this to the rest of the world; it is like Bruce Lee when he decided to go against his elders and share one of the beauties of their culture.


 * The martial arts goes much deeper in Asian cultures too. To begin with, they go beyond beyond the martial-military aspect. These arts are a form of motion, Tai Chi is a classic example. A lot of Westerners and Europeans do not understand its depth, and its health. There are many reasons a lot of the population practice it their entire lives, similar to yoga, there are levels few people reach. A kind of digression, but perhaps a help in understanding.


 * I can see an entire article on this if it does not exist. One could be started here, then split off. Thank you for taking the time. Maybe you could enlist other Swedish authors to help, even if they are not yet editors here. Sometimes I've emailed experts for help, share your dream, and who knows where the path will take us.


 * Alrich44 (talk) 15:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi again Alrich44, glad you could benefit from the explanation. It's certainly the first time I've ever come close to being compared to Bruce Lee. Please remember though that these article talk pages exists only to talk about things concerning the article or the Wikipedia. It is not a social forum (even if all of us have made similar mistakes here as newbies, :) and some of us still have a hard time staying on subject). User talk pages, on the other hand, are a bit more lenient about subjects to discuss. I only wrote the explanation since it was related to Bauer. And, sorry, no. This will not be an article since what I have written is not referenced. On this talk page I am an "author", but none of the text can be used in an article on the Wikipedia since I am not a "reliable source". :) If someone could find similar texts in books or independent websites, then it could be used, and someone may write that article. For now it is just a lengthy sidebar to the discussion of the article. Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  15:46, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Almost there
,, , , ,  — Hello!

CaroleHenson is just wrapping up her excellent review of this article as a GAN. In some way or other you have all contributed to this expansion and your thoughts and opinions on the current state of the article and any issues / concerns about the changes from a stability perspective are most appreciated. Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  21:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It seems I never edited it. I'm happy to help, but, what was my involvement? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:40, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * @Demiurge1000:  No, you never edited it, but you were the very first editor to encourage me to do this expansion and you gave me some really good advice on how to deal with the English language in the article and other Wiki-stuff related to it. I was very much a newbie then (just one of many to you so you probably don't remember) and afraid of my own shadow, but you gave me a push in the right direction - and here we are. I thought you were entitled to an opinion since you started this. :) Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  21:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * @W.carter:  Although I couldn't resist a couple of tweaks to the lede, it looks fine to me. Well done!  Philg88 ♦talk 05:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * @Philg88:  It is your nature to c/e and tweak. :) And I always appreciate it! Cheers, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  07:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello W.carter, I'm glad to see you reaching your goal. Congratulations! I will remember our experience, how this article brought John to life for me, and especially your sharing of what the Swedish people experience in nature, as it is what I experience too, but you again put it into words so well. Alrich44 (talk) 14:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * @Alrich44:  The way you re-wrote the intro was a big improvement for the article, the reviewer mentioned it as well written, thanks! <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hello W.carter, You're welcome. Thank you for the kind words, keeping it real, and all the great material. We did well together. Alrich44 (talk) 23:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

What a wonderful, collaborative effort from the beginning of expansion until now! Thanks for the final copy edits, too. The article is now a Good Article.--<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD;'> CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 16:04, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * W.carter thank you!!! I appreciate Philg88 for taking the lede to its polished level. Alrich44 (talk) 16:34, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Ah, wait, I do remember! You fought alongside my father in the Clone Wars, I think? Never be afraid of shadows is my advice - these days I'm only afraid of Americans. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

—Quite so, our paths crossed now and again then. But it was a long tome ago, in a galaxy far, far away... <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Nice job! I've been in the bg, following this progress. Congrats on the GA! Onel5969 (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * —  @Onel5969:   Thank you! It wouldn't have been this good without your copy editing. :) Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  17:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * wow, I hardly recognise the article anymore, good effort! :) EditorInTheRye (talk) 19:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

And the work continues
Looking at some other art articles and checking with Manual of Style/Visual arts I saw that the size of the works might be included in some way. I have the measurements for most of the pics. Should they be included somewhere? If not in the captions, maybe in a new section, notes, something... Just asking.

In the same book, I found a much better pic of The Fairy Princess. I couldn't upload it since the photo had a copyright, but I could use it as ref to "wash" the pic from Runeberg (printed on old yellowed paper with the text shining through), more info at Commons. I did the same with his self portrait. These two pics are originally oil paintings and the yellow tint in them is just because they were scanned from pics in old books or something. Most of the rest of Bauer's illustrations should not be "updated" in the same manner, since they are printed or painted on paper (gone yellow) so the originals now have a yellow tint. (Yes, I have seen them IRL.) :) Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  11:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Others may have thoughts too, but mine are: Sure, if you'd like to add the size of the works to the captions that's fine.


 * Regarding the image being in/out of copyright, once it's in public domain - it's in public domain, but I don't know about whether versions adjusted for the yellow tint would mean that version is not in the public domain (i.e., instead the date is based upon date of adjustment vs. original work).


 * Personally, I would take this to Media copyright questions.--<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD;'> CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 16:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's any need for all the hassle with this or that photo. The present adjusted versions (which is allowed if it's done in the same file as the original) of the pics are now just as good as the ones I found in the book. If someone at the Commons think it's wrong, they'll just revert the change and the pic fades to yellow again. Very smooth and with no need to change files in the article. I've done it before with other pics and not been reverted. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. I've made similar kinds of changes to images for clarity, etc. and not had them reverted as well.--<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD;'> CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 16:31, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your edits, there are facts in the article that existed before my expansion of it, such as Mortis. Btw, does anybody know how to archive at least some of this very long discussion? Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  15:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Cool. Regarding archiving, I'm not sure what you mean... do you mean 1) older content on this talk page, 2) this particular subsection?, 3) something else.


 * At the risk of reiterating something you already familiar with - generally talk page content is archived oldest first.


 * It looks like Lowercase sigmabot III archived most recently (perhaps according to a schedule) - and OneClickArchiver has been used, too, by Philg88 for specific conversations.--<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD;'> CaroleHenson   ( talk ) 15:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

No, that part now in the archive was archived long ago by Philg88 in 24 June (look at the date). :) I simply meant that it would look neater if some of the older and now less relevant post could be archived. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Curious as I am I just clicked on the link you provided to "Oneclick..." So, it was just a script, huh? Well, script installed, Crome engaged and pages are arcived. All neat. :) Thanks! <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  16:20, 8 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Cool! I've had discussions recently about synchronicity (as we discussed earlier) and order... which seems to be coming into play at WP, too! Dating myself (if "cool" didn't already do it): "far out".--<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD;'> CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 16:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

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File:John Bauer - Princess Tuvstarr gazing down into the dark waters of the forest tarn. - Google Art Project.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:John Bauer - Princess Tuvstarr gazing down into the dark waters of the forest tarn. - Google Art Project.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 19, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-06-19. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:40, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

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