Talk:John Birch Society/Archive 3

Membership numbers
How many people were in the Society over the years? This can be one way of estimating a movements influence. I have seen reports that membership has declined drasticaly over the last twenty years, and that the group is on the verge of extinction, but no hard figures. A breakdown by decades would be a good start.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.150.82 (talk) 23:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

New Notable Member - Jon Schaffer, of Iced Earth (heavy metal band)
Jon Schaffer, of Iced Earth (heavy metal band), just announced that he's joining the John Birch Society. SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1M3_I-sP8g#t=4m48s


 * Not RS for WP purposes. Thanks. Collect (talk) 12:53, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

answers.com
Is not considered a "reliable source" in itself. "Columbia Encyclopedia" is considered a "tertiary source" and should be regatrded with caution. Using a general encyclopedia as a reference for a general encyclopedia is not best practice. See WP:RS and WP:V. If you wish to use the word "extreme" find a reliable source making the claim, and be willing to accept sources which do not make the claim as well. Collect (talk) 00:37, 31 January 2010 (UTC)


 * A few other sources can be cited in favor of the "extreme" descriptor&mdash;e.g., History Dictionary; ; First Principles magazine; the SPLC ("extreme antigovernment doctrines"); Faces of Right Wing Extremism, p. 39; and Radicals or Conservatives?: The Contemporary American Right, p. 98 ("extremist support for Goldwater and his apparent reciprocal encouragement of extremist groups. The most important of these was the John Birch Society..."). More and better references could probably be marshaled by someone with more time and resources.


 * I think some descriptor is necessary in the lead to make it clear that the Birch Society is outside of the mainstream Right; and I think "extreme right" is more neutral than what the article used previously: "far right". I do not think it is appropriate to lump the Society in with Klansman and Nazis, especially without an authoritative source. At the same time, describing them as merely "on the right" is misleading. Do you have a better suggestion? --darolew (talk) 06:23, 31 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I have added some of the better sources listed above. As for Right-Wing Populism in America pp. 175–185 and The Liberty Lobby and the American Right&mdash;both references which have long stood in support of that sentence&mdash;I am not sure either should be kept. The latter is given without any page numbers and I have no way of reviewing it. The former never characterizes the JBS as "extremist", "extreme right", or "far right" in the pages cited, though it does call it a "pillar of the Hard Right" (p. 175) and mentions "labeling by critics as a radical right extremist group" (p. 184). (Right-Wing Populism also calls both the Henry Regnery Company and Robert Taft "ultraconservative"&mdash;which seems to undermine its credibility). --darolew (talk) 07:18, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You should avoid judgmental terms like extreme in the lead and instead mention in the article that they have been called extreme. The Four Deuces (talk) 14:41, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct. Stating who used the term, to be sure. Collect (talk) 16:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Whether or not the term "extreme" has been used to describe the group, it is a peacock term and should not be used. Bytebear (talk) 05:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No it is not. A peacock term must "promote the subject of the article". In political contexts, the term "extreme" is more derogatory than promotional. --darolew (talk) 06:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And a specifically derogatory term has no more place in an article than a peacock term. The SPLC does not even call it "extreme" and they use the term a lot. Collect (talk) 11:57, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Far right", "fascist", "communist front", etc., are derogatory terms as well. That does not mean they haven't a place in articles. --darolew (talk) 20:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Again - any article dealing with named living people must meet WP:BLP standards. Collect (talk) 20:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Assertions about living people must meet WP:BLP. Assertions about an organization, even one made up of living people, does not have to meet that standard. That said, we should use the best available sources for all articles.   Will Beback    talk    22:13, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Since a number of living people are named in the article as being part of the organization, it is clear that statements about the organization affect them in a biographical manner -- thus BLP applies (note that BLP specifically states that it does not only apply to "biographies"). Collect (talk) 22:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What we say about those people directly is covered by BLP. What we say about the organization they belong to is not covered by it.   Will Beback    talk    22:49, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And an inference that a person "adhere to extreme antigovernment doctrines" as is currently the case in the article is not a BLP issue?  When a position is ascribed to an organization, it is ascribed to those people mentioned in the article -- posit this "the Ganrg organization is either a humanist or a pedophile organization" And "John Roe is the head of the Ganrg organization."   Would you say there is no BLP interest?  Here we ascribe possible "extreme antigovernment doctrines" to a group, and name their head in the article.  We are therefore ascribing that possible position to the person quite clearly. We ought to excise that bit which does not have any other backing in the article about the "extreme antigovernment doctrines." That is all I am saying here.  There is no need for that part to be here.  Collect (talk) 22:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If we have a source that says the organizations promotes X, Y, and Z, and we have a source that says person A belongs to that organization, then all the bases are covered. If we're lacking in sources then we should avoid making those assertions. Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be.   Will Beback    talk    23:12, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

(out) What we have is SPLC saying it is a "Patriot group." Then we have a "boilerplate sentence" from SPLC saying Patriot groups either oppose the New World Order, or they adhere to extreme antigovernmental doctrines. We also have RS for JBS opposing the New World Order already in the article. The part of the SPLC boilerplate (which was not directly connected to the JBS) about "antigovernmental doctrines" appears therefore to be not-relevant to the JBS at all, and as the SPLC made no such claim about the JBS, it ought not be in the article. Collect (talk) 23:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Far-right" seems to be a common description of the JBS. Max Blumenthal has called it "radical right". Jonathan S. Tobin and Michael Gerson have called it " extremist". There's plenty of similar epithets in use to describe it. BLP does not prevent us from reporting significant views, as required by NPOV.    Will Beback    talk    23:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The issue I presented was that of the aside about "adhere to extreme antigovernmental doctrines" which is quite different from "far right" to be sure, and since the SPLC did not apply the words to the JBS, I ask why they should be in the article. Collect (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Why isn't "far right" in the article? Whatever the most common unsympathetic view is, it should be mentioned in the lead.
 * Are we looking for a source for "antigovernment"? If so I can provide a couple.   Will Beback    talk    01:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * A comment about the SPLC's definition of "Patriot group". The definition is that these groups are: a) "opposed to the 'New World Order, and/or b) "adhere to extreme antigovernment doctrines". The SPLC page does not specify which part of the definition they think the JBS fits. Collect's point is that since we know the JBS is "opposed to the 'New World Order, the second part of the definition is not notable. However, the SPLC might well think the JBS meets both criteria; we have no way of knowing, and cannot make assumptions. If the item is to be in the article at all, the whole definition needs to be retained.


 * It might also be worth noting that we do not know the SPLC's definition of "extreme antigovernment doctrines", if they even have one. But when you have JBS leaders who say eighty percent of the federal government ought to be abolished&mdash;the JBS president, John F. McManus, said as much at the Rally for the Republic when he remarked that that, if the constitution was adhered to (something he obviously favors), the federal government would be twenty percent its current size&mdash;then it seems plausible that a liberal organization like the SPLC might regard the JBS as adhering to "extreme antigovernment doctrines". We certainly cannot assume the contrary. --darolew (talk) 05:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, about "far right": I think it would be unobjectionable if the lead had a sentence like "Critics (such as...) have argued the Society is a far right (or extreme right, or radical right) organization."&mdash;followed, of course, by good references. --darolew (talk) 05:51, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like "far right" was removed from the article recently. But the last discussion about it here was in November. Would whoever deleted it please put it back, or give an explanation for its removal?   Will Beback    talk    08:30, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed it. The sentence read: "The society is on the far right of the American political spectrum." The references cited did not support the description, and I thought it was inappropriate to use such a derogatory term without adequate references. I changed "far right" to "extreme right". Collect then objected, correctly, that the references did not support this description either, and removed the word "extreme". I re-added it, citing the Columbia Encyclopedia, as reproduced on Answers.com. Collect undid this edit, citing a concern that the source I used was unreliable&mdash;that it where this thread began. I reinserted "extreme", but since Collect did have a point, I added more references which supported the description. Collect removed the term again, for reasons stated in this thread. Then I removed the sentence altogether, as I thought that a sentence that just said the JBS was "on the right of the American political spectrum" was pointless and redundant, given the lead introduces the JBS as a conservative group.


 * That is what happened to the old "far right" sentence. I think it should remain deleted. A new sentence, along the lines I mentioned above, would be appropriate&mdash;and would be more NPOV and less contentious than the old one. --darolew (talk) 09:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that history. It appears that everyone was acting in good faith, but unfortunately the result was an article that omitted important information about the topic. I think your proposed text is good. Let me know if you need help with sources. I can give you the citations for the three writers I mentioned above.   Will Beback    talk    10:15, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The term "far right" has a specific meaning. It refers to groups that admire Hitler and Mussolini, deny the holocaust and advocate extra-legal resistance to government.  The Four Deuces (talk) 16:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If anything, then, such terms might well mislead readers. The first requirement of any article is not to do that.  At least, I do not think the JBS supports any sort of totalitarianism. Collect (talk) 18:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Four Deuces, I would remind you that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Even if your definition of "far right" is correct (which is debatable), it does not follow that we can exclude all sources describing the JBS as "far right". As per WP:NPOV, Wikipedia articles must represent "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources", even if those views are wrong.


 * Also, Will Beback, citations for those three writers would be helpful. --darolew (talk) 20:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * We can certainly mention that they have been described as far right, among other things. But that is not my definition, it is how it is used in mainstream sources.  Notice the Wikipedia Category "Far-right politics".  Incidentally I can find sources that place mainstream Republicans on the far right.  It still would be wrong to call them far right.  BTW opinions published in tertiary sources are irrelevant?  The Four Deuces (talk) 21:11, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So, if reliable sources could be found, do you agree that a sentence along the lines of what I suggested above&mdash;"Critics (such as...) have argued the Society is a far right (or extreme right, or radical right) organization.(references)"&mdash;would be appropriate to include?


 * I do not want to get sidetracked into debating the definition of 'far right';&mdash;but if there was a significant opinion that mainstream Republicans were far right, which could be backed up by reliable sources (not partisan or fringe sources), then there would be nothing wrong with including that opinion in the relevant articles.


 * As for tertiary sources, they can be used in articles, but "the bulk of the article should rely on secondary sources." --darolew (talk) 21:55, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

(out) The definition of far right is important. The term "far right" has clear associations as seen for example in the book The Routledge companion to fascism and the far right What do you think "far right" means? The term "radical right" is problematic too. It was coined in the 1950s and applied to the American conservative movement in general. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The JBS appears on page 300 of the Routledge book. The meaning of "far right" is beside the point. Our job here is just to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. We don't have to decide it they are or are not "far right" or "extremist", we just have to report the significant points of view about the group.   Will Beback    talk    00:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It is not listed as a far right organization, just mentioned in the glossary. Notice that the glossary contains many groups that are certainly not far-right, like the Khmer Rouge and the Liberal International.  Also on page 306 it refers to the Liberty Lobby as a "Far-right faction in American politics".  We really need a book about the far right that groups the JBS into the label.  So far you have not provided any sources that could be discussed.  The Four Deuces (talk) 01:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Take the same Google search but leave off "Routledge", and you'll find plenty of sources. I don't understand why this is controversial - does anyone here think the JBS is only moderately conservative?   Will Beback    talk    01:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * When Seymour Martin Lipset coined the term "radical right" in 1950, he applied it to McCarthyites, American conservatives, the JBS and neo-nazis. The term was used interchangeably with "far right" and "extreme right".  Note that most of your sources are from the 1960s and follow this definition.  See for example Life's "Who's Who in the Gamut of the Far Right" (1962).  Barry Goldwater and his conservative movement are called "far right".  Today, the term would be considered wrong.  I did not say that the JBS is only "moderately conservative" but that its lack of overt racism, anti-semtism and open connections with neo-fascists puts it in a separate group.  The Four Deuces (talk) 01:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added a few sources below that characterize the JBS as "far right", "radical right", or "extremist". And those are far from all that are available.   Will Beback    talk    06:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Only one of your sources calls them "far right". They are mostly called "radical right" (as Lipset called them) or extremists.  The Four Deuces (talk) 07:33, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The sources Will Beback has provided are certainly sufficient to include the opinion that the JBS is 'extremist' and 'radical right'. I agree that more sources would be required for 'far right'. --darolew (talk) 08:02, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't start looking for "far right" until I'd spent the allotted time on the searches. I can go back and add more. I hope that all parts of the article will become so well-referenced.   Will Beback    talk    08:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I added a bunch, just from the last five years. I also came across "ultra-right" and "ultra-conservative".   Will Beback    talk    09:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * When we are trying to find a label for a group the best approach is to find what they are called rather than find sources that support our description of them. Clearly the most common term is "radical right" which is what they are normally called in academic literature.  The term "far-right" is generally reserved for groups that are neo-fascist, racist or anti-semitic.  Far right organizations co-operate with one another and are often engaged in illegal activity.  The modern Klan in the US is described as far-right.  The Four Deuces (talk) 14:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any evidence that "radical right" is used more frequently than "far-right", or is preferred in academic literature. I'll draft a paragraph for the article and a sentence for the lead which summarizes the characterizations of the group found in the sources below. If there are other sources that should be included please add them.   Will Beback    talk    17:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's keep this simple: Any problem with that text in the intro?  Will Beback   talk    23:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Society has been characterized as "extremists", "far right", "radical right", and "ultra-conservative". [Added "extremists"]

"Has been described as 'far right' by thus-and-such" with refs should be sufficient. WP is not the place for listing everything anyone has said about a group. Our task is to state facts, not to list every available opinion out there. I suspect we could find cites for "nuts" etc. but that is not what an encyclopedia article should have. Collect (talk) 00:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, Wikipedia is the place to report what people say about a group, at least every significant view. We have more sources for them being called "radical right" than for most material in the article.   Will Beback    talk    00:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * As I have long argued, the term "far right" has a specific meaning which does not include the JBS and the fact that a few newspapers have called them far right is unimportant. May I suggest that you use search engines to confirm current use of the term.  The Four Deuces (talk) 01:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I did use an archive of newspapers to find its current use, which includes the JBS. If we have sources which dispute the characterization then we can include those too.   Will Beback    talk    01:30, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Collect: Wikipedia does not list everything which has been said about a group, but it does list verifiable and "significant views that have been published by reliable sources" (WP:NPOV). The material amassed by Will Beback seems to meet these criteria.


 * Will Beback: I would modify your suggested sentence to the following: The Society has been characterized by its critics as "extremist", "far right", "radical right", and "ultra-conservative". This adds "by its critics", and makes 'extremist' singular to be an adjective rather than a noun; and perhaps 'described' should be substituted for 'characterized'. Further, sources should be cited for each term individually. --darolew (talk) 01:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Those suggestions are fine, except for calling the sources "critics". Have any of these sources been called "critics", or would that be our own assessment? We could say "by critics and others", which avoids calling them all critics, but it's still close to original research unless it's sourced.   Will Beback    talk    01:47, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I've added to the lead:
 * It has been described as "ultraconservative",[5] "far right",[6] "radical right",[7] and "extremist".[8]
 * Each footnote contains three citations, which should be sufficient.   Will Beback    talk    19:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

My idea, for what it's worth
Looking at the weight of the evidence presented, as well as what I know myself about the group, I would definitely classify them as far right or extreme right. That term, however, has many layers of complexion, despite its superficial simplicity. I propose saying that certain reputable sources, to be cited in the article, have identified them as ideologically "far right" (only far right in quotes, but "ideologically" also included in article) to distinguish the group from more gruesome elements of the violent far right (ie. the abortion bombers like Scott Roeder).

Anyway, that's if you're all up for a mild compromise. The sources that are there now are fairly solid.UberCryxic (talk) 05:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Changes to the article
I've just made several changes to the article, mostly fixing grammatical mistakes and consolidating paragraphs. I've also placed the far right stuff after the first sentence. The readers need to be informed of prominent views about the group instantly, not all the way at the end of the lead.UberCryxic (talk) 06:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh and I've removed the tag. The article has many reliable third-party references, especially in the lead. Be bold my friends.UberCryxic (talk) 06:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * UberCryxic, please read the discussion. The Southern Poverty Law Center and other groups who monitor the "radical right" draw a distinction between the "far right" which is neo-fascist and "patriot groups" that believe in conspiracy theories.  Will Beback has presented two totally irrelevant sources that have called the JBS far right, but the term has been applied to other less extreme groups including the Tea Party movement.  I do not think that we should trivialize the concept of the far right which normally refers to Nazism and fascism by applying the term to the JBS.  I would point out also that academic sources do not normally call the JBS "far right" although Will Beback has found two articles, neither of which are about the JBS or the far right, which do use the term.  Supporters of the British National Party who object to their party being called "far right" are of course happy to see an American group that is not overtly racist or violent included as "far right" because it makes them seem more moderate.  You have to decide whether to accept the descriptions in academic literature or the other view.  The Four Deuces (talk) 07:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Two articles? Count again. We now have excerpts from 44 reliable sources, every one of which calls the JBS "far right". Let me quote what an editor said on another page:
 * The references for "far right" ... are properly sourced. These articles should reflect what appears in reliable sources and we cannot second-guess them. 
 * That editor is right. the article should reflect what reliable sources say about the subject, and we shouldn't be second-guessing them.   Will Beback    talk    08:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Did someone mention the SPLC?
 * But this same Strom also describes a more sinister influence on his political development. In a time of widespread fears of communist takeover, Strom's high school history teacher fueled his budding hatred of communism and introduced a young Strom to the far-right John Birch Society, where he allegedly encountered members of William Pierce's neo-Nazi National Alliance (NA).
 * One of Strom's high school teachers, who happened to be an extreme right-winger, discovered Strom's political leanings and recruited him into the John Birch Society, Kaiser said. It was in that far-right organization that Strom reportedly was first introduced to the National Alliance by Birchers who also belonged to the Alliance.
 * As of April, there were dues-paying party members in 49 states — including some Reform Party refugees, most notably Ezola Foster, the African-American fundamentalist and former head of the California chapter of the far-right John Birch Society who was Buchanan's surprising choice for vice president in 2000.
 * Stoked by paranoid far-right groups like the John Birch Society, which once accused President Eisenhower of being a secret Communist, these theories revive militia fears about the United States losing its sovereignty to various foreign powers.
 * They seem to consider the JBS to be "far right".   Will Beback    talk    08:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you aware that sources supporting the view that the JBS is far right should actually use the term "far right"? This is all original research.  One good source is better than forty + bad sources.  I can find sources that subjects of other articles you edit, David Duke, Sarah Palin and Tom Tancredo are also "far right".  The Four Deuces (talk) 08:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand this new objection. The sources I've listed use the term "far right". In some cases they say "far-right" instead, but I've never heard that the hyphen significantly changes the meaning of the term. If there are 44 sources that say Duke or Palin are far right then we should probably add that to those articles as well.   Will Beback    talk    09:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * This isn't very difficult everyone. The sources are reputable. The sources do overwhelmingly call the organization "far right," to the point where it's a dominant view. By Wikipedia standards, that's good enough to include the term in the lead.UberCryxic (talk) 16:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Characterizations
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Will Beback (talk • contribs) 05:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * After enduring Senator Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin, who had smeared his old colleague Gen. George C. Marshall as a Communist sympathizer, and having guarded the Republican Party against the newly emergent radical right John Birch Society, which labeled him and much of his cabinet Soviet agents, the president perhaps welcomed the opportunity to expound on his vision of the open society.
 * Ike's Other Warning; Max Blumenthal. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Sep 3, 2009. pg. A.31
 * The more rightists who win G.O.P. primaries, the greater the Democrats' prospects next year. But the electoral math is less interesting than the pathology of this movement. Its antecedent can be found in the early 1960s, when radical-right hysteria carried some of the same traits we're seeing now: seething rage, fear of minorities, maniacal contempt for government, and a Freudian tendency to mimic the excesses of political foes. Writing in 1964 of that era's equivalent to today's tea party cells, the historian Richard Hofstadter observed that the John Birch Society's "ruthless prosecution" of its own ideological war often mimicked the tactics of its Communist enemies.
 * The G.O.P. Stalinists Invade Upstate New York; Frank Rich. New York Times. New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 2009. pg. WK.8
 * To support his argument, Piereson reconstructs the mood of the time, the powerful and violent resistance to the movement for civil rights in the south, the lunacy of the anti-Communist crusade of groups like the John Birch Society, the murders of the civil rights leader Medgar Evers and others by the Ku Klux Klan. The violent and irrational tone of life had led to a widespread assumption among liberals, who were the dominant voices in the media and in academia, that the main threat to American democracy came, not from Communists at home (deemed to be a paranoid figment of a discredited McCarthyite imagination) but from this genuinely frightening radical right.
 * The JFK assassination and a '60s leftist prism Letter from America; Richard Bernstein. International Herald Tribune. Paris: May 21, 2007. pg. 2
 * [Ralph R. Harding, a former two-term Mormon congressman from Idaho], a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, blasted LDS Church Apostle Ezra Taft Benson as "a spokesman for the radical right" during a September 1963 speech on the U.S. House floor. Harding criticized Benson, who had served as Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower's secretary of agriculture from 1953 to 1961, for a speaking appearance that same month on behalf of John Birch Society founder Robert H. Welch. Welch had just published a book alleging that Eisenhower, commanding general of victorious U.S. forces in Europe during World War II, was a Communist Party sympathizer.
 * Former U.S. Rep. Harding dies at 77 Christopher Smith. McClatchy - Tribune Business News. Washington: Oct 27, 2006. pg. 1
 * I had written a very accurate account in the Raleigh News and Observer about the John Birch Society's infiltration into conservative Kinston, N.C. At that time, nobody in North Carolina had heard much of the radical, right-wing group, even though its founder, Robert Welch, grew up just outside Hertford, N.C., in Perquimins County.
 * VOTERS ADMIRED N.C. SENATOR'S INDEPENDENT STREAK, SOUTHERN CHARM; IDA KAY JORDAN. Virginian - Pilot. Norfolk, Va.: Aug 26, 2001. pg. J.1
 * Mr. Lake has been on the radical right's enemies list since 1970, when he resigned from the State Department to protest the Nixon Administration's Cambodia policy. But if his detractors examined his record, they would see that he is not the ideological foe they portray him to be. After Mr. Lake was nominated for Director of Central Intelligence, the John Birch Society and other anti-government fringe groups launched a smear campaign. They lit up the Internet with conspiracy yarns and indicted Mr. Lake for such crimes as working in the Carter Administration, serving as a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (the Park Avenue State Department) and promoting world government. In an error-ridden article in The New American, a John Birch periodical, William F. Jasper dissected Mr. Lake's resume and found a pattern of anti-Americanism: attending Harvard and Princeton, speaking at the Institute for Policy Studies when it was supposedly a beehive of militant Marxists, working at Alger Hiss's Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
 * The Right Choice for the C.I.A.; Douglas Brinkley. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1997. pg. A.15
 * In the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing, a May 1, 1995, article in Time magazine linked home-schoolers to the extremist component of the "radical right in America" that spawned such terrorist acts. Citing politicians swept into office in 1994 by the "widespread mistrust and even hatred of government power in Western and rural areas," the article said: "Their coalition included well-known elements of far-right thought: tax protesters; Christian home-schoolers; conspiracy theorists influenced by the John Birch Society's fear of one-world government; Second Amendment activists (mostly men) for whom guns are an important part of an independent way of life; self-reliant types who resent a federal government that seems to favor grizzly bears and wolves over humans on government land."
 * Home schooling's success shakes `extremist' image Carol Innerst. Washington Times. Washington, D.C.: Dec 11, 1996. pg. A.1
 * A powerful magnetism has existed between extremist right-wing groups in America and the Republican Party for more than six decades, since the days of Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. During the Great Depression, fringe leaders included William Dudley Pelley and his brigades of anti-Semitic Silver Shirts, radio preacher Father Charles Coughlin and his Christian Front, Charles Lindbergh and the America First Committee, Fritz Kuhn and the German-American Bund. In the early 1950s, Sen. Joe McCarthy initiated witch-hunting that revived the dormant bigotries of the 1930s and sustained the GOP majorities in Congress. In the 1960s, the John Birch Society, protagonists of the antifluoridation hysteria and other extreme right-wing groups stepped forward to buttress Barry Goldwater's candidacy.
 * PERSPECTIVE ON POLITICS; The Big Tent Isn't Big Enough; By allowing extremists to flourish openly, the GOP forces out those who represent the party's moderate values.; MARVIN LIEBMAN. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 17, 1996. pg. 5
 * In a time when the radical Right under the newly founded John Birch Society flourished and when communists were presumed lurking in the groves of academe, Brown was a staunch defender of equality in employment, nondiscrimination in housing, and academic freedom.
 * Edmund G. 'Pat' Brown, Former Governor, Dies; Obituary: Democrat guided California through one of its greatest public and private building booms. He was 90.; JUDITH MICHAELSON. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 17, 1996. pg. 1
 * Time magazine's Philip Weiss wrote, "The radical right in America today has its extremist component, which plainly was a force in the 1994 elections." He proceeds to loop in "Christian home-schoolers, conspiracy theorists influenced by the John Birch Society's fear of one-world government, Second Amendment activists (mostly men) . . . self-reliant types who resent a Federal Government that seems to favor grizzly bears and wolves over humans on government land."
 * Media smear the populist right; SAMUEL FRANCIS. San Francisco Examiner. San Francisco, Calif.: May 4, 1995. pg. A.23
 * Though he was exposed as a reckless charlatan and provocateur, [Joseph R. McCarthy] left a malignant legacy. Before his demise, he managed to spawn a fear-driven and fear-spreading progeny, a "radical right" that included the John Birch Society as well as the gun-toting "militias" that today claim to be manning the ramparts of the republic against the menacing blue-helmeted hordes of the United Nations.
 * IN AMERICAN POLITICS WE TEND TO GO TO EXTREMES, DON'T WE?; By DAVID M. KENNEDY. The Record. Bergen County, N.J.: May 3, 1995. pg. n.09
 * According to Berlet, who has researched the radical right for 20 years, the new militias also have borrowed much of their ideology from the John Birch Society, which was founded in 1958. Until the 1970s there hardly was a radical right outside the Klan and the John Birch Society. 
 * Militia groups tap long, dark history of radical right; Lane Lambert. The Patriot Ledger. Quincy, Mass.: Apr 29, 1995. pg. 23
 * Another parallel, [Kathy Olmsted, a University of California, Davis historian of the period] says, the Tea Party movement is not unlike a right-wing activist group of the time, The John Birch Society. The John Birch Society was extreme, but also connected to the Republican Party, and Republican politicians had to make a decision about whether they were with the movement, she says.
 * The Tea Party's (old) paranoia; Today's fervent ideological movement has roots in post-World War II right J Patrick Coolican. Las Vegas Sun. Las Vegas, Nev.: Jan 24, 2010. pg. 1
 * But as National Review took flight in the late 1950s, anti-Semitic writers found themselves on the outside looking in. So, too, did apologists for the extremist John Birch Society.
 * The writer who chased the anti-Semites out JONATHAN S. TOBIN. Jerusalem Post. Jerusalem: Mar 9, 2008. pg. 14
 * Intellectual dissent was captured by extremists, from Ayn Rand to the John Birch Society. It took 40 years for the development of an intellectually serious and politically respectable conservative movement.
 * Looking for conservatism Michael Gerson Times Daily. Florence, Ala.: Mar 10, 2009.


 * Theodore Kaczynski The Anticivilization Left Jailed 'Unabomber' Kaczynski (shown here after his 1996 arrest in Montana) is the most famous figure in a new left-wing branch of the antigovernment movement. Formerly, only ultra-right groups like the John Birch Society believed the U.S. government was illegitimate. Now that view is shared by extreme environmentalists, 'primitivist' anarchists and some anti-corporate activists. Right-wing Patriot and Militia members have come to support left-wing causes such as anti-trade protests
 * 'We're living in 1930s Germany' Doug Saunders. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Jun 16, 2001. pg. F.4


 * No one can directly blame ultra-conservative organizations like the John Birch Society, or sympathizers or opponents of Fidel Castro's Cuban regime, for Kennedy's assassination but we know -- thanks to 9/11, Fort Hood and Oklahoma City -- that a handful of political extremists, or just one, can be influenced and persuaded to use violence to make a statement. 
 * A grim lesson from Nov. 22, 1963. Middletown Journal. Middletown, Ohio: Nov 20, 2009.
 * [ Judith F. Krug] also fought for the inclusion of literature on library shelves that she herself found offensive, like "The Blue Book" of the ultraconservative John Birch Society. 
 * Judith F. Krug, 69; fought efforts to ban library books Anonymous. Boston Globe. Boston, Mass.: Apr 19, 2009. pg. A.7
 * [W. Cleon] Skousen never joined the ultra-conservative John Birch Society but was a supporter. 
 * Beck's backing bumps Skousen book to top Sharon Haddock Mormon Times. Deseret News. Salt Lake City, Utah: Mar 21, 2009. pg. WEB
 * ''[H.L. Hunt] was a member of the ultraconservative John Birch Society and promoted his anticommunist views with a foundation and on the radio.
 * Business Bookshelf: Piles of Green From Black Gold J. Lynn Lunsford. Wall Street Journal. New York, N.Y.: Feb 4, 2009. pg. A.11
 * Before the 1960s, it was common for properties in San Marino to have a legal stipulation banning sales to blacks and Jews, and until 1989 the city was national headquarters to the ultraconservative, anti-communist John Birch Society.
 * Churches tackle tough topic of race Shelia Byrd. Sunday Gazette - Mail. Charleston, W.V.: May 25, 2008. pg. C.5
 * In addition to accusing southern California of stealing their water for decades and being residents of a cultural wasteland, northern California voters sneer at a part of the state that bred Richard Nixon and backed the ultra-conservative John Birch Society.
 * California now the 'big prize'; Moving primary forward from June has increased the focus on the diverse, populous, unique state; Jim Byers. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 4, 2008. pg. AA.3
 * Otis [Chandler] turned the parochial, rightwing paper into a prize-winning national. One of his first moves was an expose of the ultra-conservative John Birch Society, which Philip supported.
 * Media: LA Times: Papers before profiteering Peter Huck. The Guardian. London (UK): Jul 3, 2006. pg. 3
 * Besides decrying the damage the repeal would do to public education, critics have taken aim at I-920's sponsor, campaign manager and chairman, Dennis Falk, a former Seattle police officer and a longtime leader of the ultraconservative John Birch Society.
 * REPEAL OF ESTATE TAX HAS WEALTHY BACKERS ; BUT THE CAMPAIGN TO DEFEAT I-920 ALSO ENLISTING WELL-KNOWN SUPPORT; NEIL MODIE P-I reporter. Seattle Post - Intelligencer. Seattle, Wash.: Jun 9, 2006. pg. B.1
 * Patterson's wife, Rene, recalled that her husband -- Modesto's second (and last) black man elected to the City Council -- was stunned when a member of the ultraconservative John Birch Society offered to host a fund-raiser. 
 * PATTERSON DIES AT 57, WAS MODESTO LEADER; GARTH STAPLEY, BEE STAFF WRITER. The Modesto Bee. Modesto, Calif.: Mar 18, 2006. pg. A.1
 * John Harry Katz, a lifetime member of the ultraconservative John Birch Society whose demonstrations in Modesto targeted the United Nations, died of natural causes Monday in Manteca at Kaiser Foundation Hospital.
 * CONSERVATIVE RADIO SHOW HOST JOHN KATZ, 70, DIES ; OBITUARIES; MERRILL BALASSONE, BEE STAFF WRITER. The Modesto Bee. Modesto, Calif.: Mar 10, 2006. pg. B.4

"Far right"

 * In her recent article titled "Right On" in The Nation, New York University history professor Kim Phillips-Fein, asks: "Is the conservative movement dead?" She writes that before Ronald Reagan's White House victory in 1980, scholars wrote hardly any serious books about conservatism. Sure, they produced works about McCarthyism, the John Birch Society and other far-right excesses, but most university historians ignored conservatism as an intellectual subject.
 * Is there a Buckley in the house? Bill Maxwell Sentinel & Enterprise. Fitchburg, Mass.: Sep 30, 2009.
 * "The best historical parallel for the Birthers is the far-right John Birch Society, or 'Birchers,'" according to UC Davis historian Kathryn Olmsted, author of Real Enemies Conspiracy Theories and American Democracy, World War I to 9/11.
 * Birthers' fiction takes on a life; Claims that Obama wasn't born in the U.S.A. lives on in media, despite the facts Mitch Potter. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Aug 1, 2009. pg. A.14
 * In 1966, he founded the Institute for American Democracy to fight political extremists. It was attacked by the John Birch Society and other far-right groups, and the window of his home was shot out.
 * FRANKLIN LITTELL| JUNE 20, 1917 -- MAY 23, 2009; SCHOLAR OF HOLOCAUST, AUTHOR OF MANY BOOKS Douglas Martin. Pittsburgh Post - Gazette. Pittsburgh, Pa.: May 31, 2009. pg. C.5
 * Despite [Clarke T Reed]'s actions, his politics contained as much pragmatism as conservatism. He briefly belonged to the far-right John Birch Society in the late 1950s but later insisted that he had quit after one meeting.
 * "Lily White and Hard Right": The Mississippi Republican Party and Black Voting, 1965-1980 Chris Danielson. The Journal of Southern History. Athens: Feb 2009. Vol. 75, Iss. 1; pg. 83, 36 pgs
 * Political figures and institutions that were regarded as being on the lunatic fringe of the far right during that first visit of mine, such as Senator Barry Goldwater and the John Birch Society, began to look mainstream, even moderate, in retrospect. It was with a start that I read in Hillary Clinton's autobiography that she had been a Goldwater Girl as a student.
 * Fascinating prospect as Obama seeks to capitalise on shift in US politics Allister Sparks. Cape Times. Cape Town: Jun 12, 2008. pg. 9
 * On the far right, the ultra-conservative John Birch Society was increasingly vocal and strident.
 * Commentator, raconteur, novelist; America's best-known Conservative voice was a 'Renaissance man of the right'; Bart Barnes. The Vancouver Sun. Vancouver, B.C.: Feb 28, 2008. pg. A.11
 * A few years ago, on assignment for this newspaper, I attended a memorial service for McCarthy at his grave site in Appleton, Wis. It's an annual event, sponsored by a local group that hopes to turn the senator's birthday into a national holiday and put his likeness on a postage stamp. Most of the celebrants were elderly, and several belonged to the far-right John Birch Society. "There aren't a lot of us still around," an 87-year-old McCarthy supporter told me. "When we die, who'll be left to tell the truth about Joe?"
 * In the Heart of the Heart of Conspiracy David Oshinsky. New York Times Book Review. New York: Jan 27, 2008. pg. 23, 1 pgs
 * The more ideological Ronald Reagan avoided Nixon's mistake, positioning himself as an insurgent in both his early political career in the 1960s (going so far as to endorse a representative who was member of the far-right John Birch Society) and in 1976 when he mounted a strong challenge to the incumbent president, Gerald R. Ford, for the Republican nomination.
 * An anti-war campaign that takes a page from the GOP playbook; Sam Tanenhaus. Beaumont Enterprise. Beaumont, Tex.: Aug 13, 2006. pg. A.6
 * Tim LaHaye has a long history of involvement in far-right politics. He lectured on behalf of the John Birch Society throughout the 1960s and '70s and later helped found the Council for National Policy. 
 * Religious Right Power Brokers: THE TOP TEN Rob Boston. Church & State. Silver Springs: Jun 2006. Vol. 59, Iss. 6; pg. 10, 5 pgs
 * The far-right and secretive John Birch Society was very active around Washington C.H. at the time, and as the right's No. 1 cause in the early 1960s (just ahead of preventing fluoridation of public water supplies) was withdrawing the U.S. from the United Nations, the local Birchers were suspected as being behind the harassment of O'Brien and his family, but all of the known members denied involvement, and the precise origin of the campaign was never identified.
 * Coach's fight for right reverberates today; Richard Riegel. Cincinnati Post. Cincinnati, Ohio: Dec 19, 2005. pg. A.13.0
 * No matter how wrong they are, however, Fox is not the first to announce that Christmas is under attack. The last time was back in the 1950s, when leaders of the far-right John Birch Society blamed an anti-Christmas campaign on communists. But they were only echoing Henry Ford, who warned Americans in 1921 that Christmas was being stolen by the Jews. Fox is today's John Birch and Henry Ford.
 * No more Christmas in America? Editorial / Opinion. Sentinel & Enterprise. Fitchburg, Mass.: Dec 7, 2005. pg. 1
 * ''Nesta Helen Webster (1876-1960) was one of the most influential conspiracy theorists of the twentieth century. Although an advocate of women's rights early in her life, her conviction that a vast and dangerous conspiracy threatened the British state and Christian civilization soon overshadowed these concerns. During her lifetime, she was a woman of considerable political influence, but she is perhaps even more influential today. Her books remain in print, and her work is a foundation of many far-right ideologies, including those of the John Birch Society and the Militia and Patriot movements. Webster's life and work are illustrative of the paradoxical position of women of the far right, both in the early twentieth century and today. [..] Her work is a foundation for many modern American far-right political ideologies, including those of Pat Robertson, the John Birch Society, and the Militia and Patriot movements, and it is a component of a number of radical Islamist ideologies.
 * NESTA WEBSTER: The Voice of Conspiracy Martha F Lee. Journal of Women's History. Baltimore: Fall 2005. Vol. 17, Iss. 3; pg. 81, 25 pgs
 * In 1981, there were very few women judges, and almost no Republican ones. In fact, as some conservatives pointed out at the time, [Sandra Day] O'Connor as a state senator had supported legislation to decriminalize abortion and sparred with the far-right John Birch Society.
 * Queen of the Center Evan Thomas, Stuart Taylor Jr, Andrew Romano, Karl Gude. Newsweek. New York: Jul 11, 2005. Vol. 146, Iss. 2; pg. 24, 9 pgs
 * [Pat] Brown badly underestimated Reagan's appeal. He lumped the Republican nominee in with the far-right John Birch Society, though the first-time candidate took great effort to distance himself. 
 * California Rising: The Life and Times of Pat Brown David Mark. Campaigns and Elections. Washington: Jul 2005. Vol. 26, Iss. 6; pg. 38, 2 pgs
 * Twenty years later the far right revered [John T.] Flynn as a god, and in 2000, the ultra-right John Birch Society saluted him as one of twenty-five "heroes for all time." 
 * Right Turn: John T. Flynn and the Transformation of American Liberalism Linda J Lumsden. Journalism History. Athens: Summer 2005. Vol. 31, Iss. 2; pg. 117, 2 pgs
 * The John Birch Society, whose ideals of limited government, anti- Communist crusades and conspiracy theories placed it on the far- right of the American political spectrum, is affiliated with the school, and its members have worked for years to establish it. But legally the school and the society are separate entities with different headquarters in Appleton.
 * University to nurture Birch Society creator's dream; NAHAL TOOSI. Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Milwaukee, Wis.: Mar 20, 2005. pg. 01
 * In several states, however, the call for a convention has raised concerns on the far right, around which the political establishment, eager to defeat term limits, has rallied. Thus, in Colorado the call is opposed by a group called Citizens Against Constitution Tampering, while in Arkansas a suit has been brought to block "the destruction of the Federal Constitution as we know it." Perhaps the greatest opposition has arisen in Idaho, where nearly 60% of the voters in 1994 elected to limit the terms of every office from congressman to school board trustee. There, the John Birch Society has led the way in opposing a convention, followed by Gov. Phil Batt, Senate President Pro Tem Jerry Twiggs and Congresswoman Helen Chenoweth, Republicans all.
 * Rule of Law: Who's afraid of a constitutional amendment on term limits? Pilon, Roger. Wall Street Journal. (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Oct 16, 1996. pg. A21, 1 pgs
 * '[John] Dunn was a member of the far-right John Birch Society, whose founder, Robert Welch, had famously called President Dwight D. Eisenhower "a dedicated, conscious agent of the Communist conspiracy."46
 * Mixed Motives Behind a Pulitzer Stephen Bates. Journalism History. Athens: Winter 2010. Vol. 35, Iss. 4; pg. 205, 11 pgs
 * Conspiracy theory mongering around NAFTA has been churning since President Bill Clinton signed the treaty in 1993, with the John Birch Society and other far-right groups declaring it a threat to American sovereignty and jobs.
 * The Conspiratorial Urban Legend of the Evil NAFTA Superhighway Clay Risen. World Trade. Troy: Nov 2007. Vol. 20, Iss. 11; pg. 36, 3 pgs
 * In 1966, [Franklin H. Littell] founded the Institute for American Democracy to fight political extremists. It was attacked by the John Birch Society and other far-right groups, and the window of his home was shot out.
 * FRANKLIN LITTELL| JUNE 20, 1917 -- MAY 23, 2009; SCHOLAR OF HOLOCAUST, AUTHOR OF MANY BOOKS Douglas Martin. Pittsburgh Post - Gazette. Pittsburgh, Pa.: May 31, 2009. pg. C.5
 * NAPF also re-printed articles published by the far-right John Birch Society, one of which was titled "Truth about M. L. King" and linked the late civil rights leader with communism.105
 * Say No to Busing and the Liberal Media William Gillis. Journalism History. Athens: Winter 2010. Vol. 35, Iss. 4; pg. 216, 13 pgs
 *  A number of participants belong to the John Birch Society, a far-right organization, currently with headquarters in Appleton. It views McCarthy as a founding father of the struggle to purge communist influence from American life.
 * Graying Now, McCarthyites Keep the Faith David Oshinsky. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Jun 1, 2002. pg. B.7
 * [William Pierce] made his first entry into the far right through the rabidly anti-Communist John Birch Society, then became an associate of George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazi Party who was assassinated in 1967.
 * Obituary: William Pierce Andrew Gumbel. The Independent. London (UK): Jul 26, 2002. pg. 18
 * While Buckley and most other mainstream conservatives disavowed Welch's assertion that Eisenhower was a communist agent, they did not attack the John Birch Society or other far-right groups
 * The rise of conservatism since World War II Dan T Carter. Magazine of History. Bloomington: Jan 2003. Vol. 17, Iss. 2; pg. 11, 6 pgs
 * This county used to pride itself on being the anti-Los Angeles. Once you drove south through the Orange curtain, as it was known, it was not just suburban, but anti-urban, overwhelmingly white, proudly insular and, in its politics, as far right as the xenophobic John Birch Society, which had deep roots here.
 * Orange County GOP's dilemma: Vote pragmatism or principle?; James Sterngold. San Francisco Chronicle. San Francisco, Calif.: Sep 12, 2003. pg. A.1
 * Ronald Reagan's Monday-night problem, his table full of less than savoury friends, was serious. He had all but dropped out of acting in the early 1950s, becoming an inspirational speaker for General Electric. This led him into conservative politics, and gave him a stammtisch drawn from the John Birch Society and other far-right fringe groups. 
 * What Arnold brings to the table Doug Saunders. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Oct 11, 2003. pg. F.1
 * For the last great flowering of explicitly political movies in Hollywood - movies that had relevance to contemporary events - one must go back all the way to the early 1960s. Many of these movies still seem to reach directly into our present day. Certain of the anxieties they tackled - the rise of a snarling, paranoid far-right in the form of the John Birch Society, the 1964 Goldwater campaign, or quasi-fascists like General William Walker in Texas; the awesome power of the military-industrial complex; the sense of a nation irreparably divided against itself - are not merely with us today, they have their roots in those times.
 * Friday Review: Column: With Bush v Kerry on the horizon, Hollywood - as ever - is ducking the challenge John Patterson. The Guardian. London (UK): Mar 19, 2004. pg. 3
 * There's a theory on political life that everyone -- think Barry Goldwater, Al Sharpton, or Patrick J. Buchanan -- can go from far-out firebrand to mainstream insider given enough passing time. Maybe it's too much to expect for the John Birch Society, which in its heyday in the 1960's was viewed as the most powerful far-right organization in the country.
 * Far-Right Group Now Seems Not So Far Peter Applebome. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Sep 22, 2004. pg. B.6
 * Milwaukee has elected three socialist mayors, while Appleton, farther north, is the headquarters of the far-right John Birch Society.
 * Why Upper Midwest is up for grabs; Amanda Paulson Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor. The Christian Science Monitor. Boston, Mass.: Oct 25, 2004. pg. 01
 * [Utah's Republican Assembly] has ties to a number of other far-right groups, including the John Birch Society, Grass Roots and the Utah Eagle Forum, of which Ruzicka's wife, Gayle, serves as president.
 * Is Utah on the Brink of a Far-Right Revolution?; Archconservatives view this election as `a defining event'; Far Right Is Prominent In the Primaries; DAN HARRIE and JUDY FAHYS THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Jun 17, 1998. pg. A.1
 * The New American, organ of the far right John Birch Society, warns that the year 2000 may provide an ambitious president with "an opportunity to seize dictatorial powers." 
 * Y2 Chaos As worrisome as any computer glitch; aggressive subtext to survivalist rhetoric; Daniel Schoer. The Christian Science Monitor. Boston, Mass.: Jan 15, 1999. pg. 11
 * It was no coincidence that the most notorious far-right group of the second half of the twentieth century-the John Birch Society-was named for an American soldier-turned-missionary who was (so the mythologizing goes) betrayed by his own government and murdered by the red Chinese. 
 * Taiwan on the brink Joshua Micah Marshall. The American Prospect. Princeton: Jan 3, 2000. Vol. 11, Iss. 4; pg. 14, 3 pgs
 * Indeed, Reagan was able to distance himself from the far-right John Birch Society while taking full advantage of the openings presented by Brown's failed fairhousing proposal, the Watts riots, and campus unrest at Berkeley. 
 * The Right Moment: Ronald Reagan's First Victory and the Decisive Turning Point in American Politics Robert F Nardini. Library Journal. New York: Aug 2000. Vol. 125, Iss. 13; pg. 129, 1 pgs
 *  Like Buchanan, Foster is antigay, anti-choice, anti-affirmative action, anti-immigrant, and just a little paranoid-before joining his campaign, she was a proud member of the John Birch Society, a group of far-right conspiracy theorists who called Bill Clinton a Communist. 
 * Women to watch: And watch out for Ezola Foster Michelle Knoetgen. Ms. Arlington: Dec 2000/Jan 2001. Vol. 11, Iss. 1; pg. 13, 1 pgs
 * [Ezra] Benson became widely known in the 1960s and 1970s for his opposition to the civil rights and the women's movements and for his association with the far-right John Birch Society.
 * Mormon Head Ezra Benson Dies at Age 94; Omaha World - Herald. Omaha, Neb.: May 31, 1994. pg. 1
 * ''For instance: the Newt Gingrich thing. Just because someone is far right of center, I learned, doesn't mean he's conservative enough for the John Birch Society. Newt, the society fears, is part of a conspiracy to launch a single, freedom-sapping worldwide government; they cite his support for GATT and NAFTA by way of proof.
 * Spending time with Birchers is enlightening; MELISSA BALMAIN: The Orange County Register. Orange County Register. Santa Ana, Calif.: Dec 19, 1994. pg. b.01
 * Because groupings on the far Right tend to be secretive, obtaining estimates of membership figures is a problematic endeavor. "When you're at war, you don't give the enemy the number of your troops," a John Birch Society official said in an interview last October, and his organization is less surreptitious than most.
 * A Force Upon the Plain: The American Militia Movement and the Politics of Hate Rees, Matthew. Commentary. New York: May 1996. Vol. 101, Iss. 5; pg. 64, 4 pgs
 * During World War II and into the 1950s, the [Senate Subcommittee on Un-American Activities] tracked suspected Communists, ranging from Hollywood figures to union and college faculty members, and issued reports. Critics charged that the reports violated constitutionally protected rights of citizens, contained false information and were based on news reports and tracts from the far-right John Birch Society. 
 * Old Files Hold a Suspicious Era's Lies and Smears; CARL INGRAM. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 25, 1998. pg. 1
 * IN the heady days of the 1950's and the early 1960's, when American liberalism seemed securely enthroned, it was easy to dismiss the far right as the fading and obsolete remnant of a vanished past. Its most prominent organizations, after all, were usually clumsy and embarrassing (witness the John Birch Society). 
 * THE RETURN OF THE RIGHT; [Review] New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Aug 15, 1982. pg. A.9
 *  But in separate interviews conducted yesterday, both [Joan] Kroc and [Ballard] Smith expressed concern over the fact that Padre pitchers Eric Show, Dave Dravecky and Mark Thurmond have discussed their memberships in the far-right John Birch Society with the media and other players.
 * Birch comments stir concern | Kroc, Smith worry about club's image; Nick Canepa. The Tribune. San Diego, Calif.: Jul 13, 1984. pg. E.1
 *  And the recent news that another relic of the anti-communist movement of the 1950s - the John Birch Society - will soon move its headquarters to Appleton has caused some here to fear, and others to hope, that the area will once again become known as a cradle of the far right.
 * FIRST MCCARTHY, NOW BIRCH AGITATE WIS. TOWN Andrew Cassel. Philadelphia Inquirer. Philadelphia, Pa.: Mar 19, 1989. pg. A.2
 * ''[John] McManus is public relations director of the far-right John Birch Society.
 * Birch spokesman aims for listeners; Ray Huard. San Diego Tribune. San Diego, Calif.: Apr 22, 1991. pg. B.1
 * But [Dan] Quayle's conservatism almost always appears tinged with political calculus. Within the family, friends said, he is subjected to semi-serious rebukes for "liberal tendencies" from his father, James Quayle, a former member of the far-right John Birch Society.
 * What if Dan Quayle Were to Become President? Series: THE PRESIDENT'S UNDERSTUDY Series Number: 7/7 David S. Broder, Bob Woodward. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: Jan 12, 1992. pg. a.01
 * Kennedy was "always selling something. He was a conservative trying to gain entree to the movement" by buying Conservative Digest in 1985, Keene said. "Stanley became his editor - he goes back forever," to the far-right John Birch Society in the 1960s.
 * SELLING PATRIOTISM FOR A PROFIT; SECRET AGENTS OF KUWAIT, THEY FANNED U.S. SUPPORT FOR WAR Tim Weiner. Philadelphia Inquirer. Philadelphia, Pa.: Jul 9, 1992. pg. A.1
 * Such interpretations echo the ideological leaders of the far-right, such as the John Birch Society and its journal, The New American.
 * Constituting international political economy by Kurt Burch, Robert Allen Denemark 1997 Lynne Rienner Publishers ISBN 9781555876609
 * [Jerry Latham, cofounder of Radio for Peace International] clarified who makes most effective use of short wave radio: "We're not talking about the Rush Limbaughs or Gordon Liddys. We're talking about the whole spectrum of the extreme far right--elements of the militia movement, neo-Nazis, John Birch Society, Ku Klux Klan, Posse Comitatus, Christian Identity, various White Aryan Nation people, survivalists, and conspiracy theorists."
 * While many individual militia members cheered [Linda Thompson] with "Let's hang Reno and the Clintons," this particularly volatile rhetoric was too much even for such far-right groups as the John Birch Society, the Liberty Lobby, and a number of militia leaders.
 * The ADL's strategy of using alarm over the John Birch Society to discredit other far right organizations with avowedly anti-Semitic agendas was undeniably effective, but it was hardly logical, since Welch...
 * For example, Robert Welch, the leader of the far-right John Birch Society, boasts of his group's Jewish and Roman Catholic members. 
 * One of Strom's high school teachers, who happened to be an extreme right-winger, discovered Strom's political leanings and recruited him into the John Birch Society, Kaiser said. It was in that far-right organization that Strom reportedly was first introduced to the National Alliance by Birchers who also belonged to the Alliance.
 * "The Wannabe: Former National Alliance 'intellectual' Kevin Strom wants to be a boss" By T.K. Kim, SPLC, Intelligence Report, Fall 2005, Issue Number: 119
 *  Stoked by paranoid far-right groups like the John Birch Society, which once accused President Eisenhower of being a secret Communist, these theories revive militia fears about the United States losing its sovereignty to various foreign powers.
 * "Paranoid Style Redux: Nativist Conspiracy Theories Explored" by Heidi Beirich, SPLC Intelligence Report, Summer 2007, Issue Number:  126
 * As of April, there were dues-paying party members in 49 states — including some Reform Party refugees, most notably Ezola Foster, the African-American fundamentalist and former head of the California chapter of the far-right John Birch Society who was Buchanan's surprising choice for vice president in 2000.
 * "'Our Terrible Swift Sword': Can the Constitution Party take politics to the extreme in 2004?" by Bob Moser, SPLC Intelligence Report, Fall 2003, Issue Number: 111
 *  Stoked by paranoid far-right groups like the John Birch Society, which once accused President Eisenhower of being a secret Communist, these theories revive militia fears about the United States losing its sovereignty to various foreign powers.
 * "Paranoid Style Redux: Nativist Conspiracy Theories Explored" by Heidi Beirich, SPLC Intelligence Report, Summer 2007, Issue Number:  126
 * As of April, there were dues-paying party members in 49 states — including some Reform Party refugees, most notably Ezola Foster, the African-American fundamentalist and former head of the California chapter of the far-right John Birch Society who was Buchanan's surprising choice for vice president in 2000.
 * "'Our Terrible Swift Sword': Can the Constitution Party take politics to the extreme in 2004?" by Bob Moser, SPLC Intelligence Report, Fall 2003, Issue Number: 111

Lead sentence
The old source for this is now a dead link, and isn't even in the archives. the new link, http://www.jbs.org/core-principles, doesn't contain any of the assertions made in this sentence. Also, an edit back in September 2009 was probably faulty in removing the phrase "anti-communist" from the lead. So we need some basic source and then we should probably rewrite the topic sentence from scratch.  Will Beback   talk    12:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The John Birch Society is a political advocacy group that supports what it considers traditionally conservative causes such as the private ownership of property, the rule of law and U.S. sovereignty, and the opposition to globalism.


 * Will, I've gone ahead and implemented your proposed changes, although you might have some quibbles with the particular version I've chosen.UberCryxic (talk) 16:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

As I have stated previously, I am opposed to saying the John Birch Society is 'far right'. Collect, The Four Deuces, and Outback the koala have expressed the same opinion. It seems UberCryxic and Will Beback have been making changes without reaching consensus. I have been supportive of saying the JBS "has been described as 'far right, because this is a significant opinion about the JBS; but I do not believe it is the "dominant" opinion as UberCryxic asserts.

As Collect and The Four Deuces have been pointing out all along, it is hard to disprove the assertion that the JBS 'far right'. For any given subject (the Republican Party, Barry Goldwater, etc.) it is far easier to find sources asserting it is far right than it is not. Sources that do not believe a subject is far right tend to not mention it at all. Thus it is easy to marshal sources like The New York Times and academic journals,&mdash;which suffer from notorious political biases,&mdash;and use them to assert the JBS is far right, but very difficult to find assertions to the contrary. A minority opinion,&mdash;no matter how demeaning and incoherent,&mdash;is declared as fact because it gets explicitly mentioned in publications; while the majority opinion, being implicit, is excluded.

I urge the editors to reconsider their positions, and favor the restoration of the previous sentence. --darolew (talk) 22:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm open. What sources can we muster to show that there is a more dominant opinion? Also, it looks like The Four Deuces is urging us to use academic journals, while Darolew is saying they are notoriously biased. What are the best sources for this topic that editors can recommend?    Will Beback    talk    22:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Martin Seymour Lipset established definitions for the American "radical right". (See:  "The Sources of the "Radical Right" (1955).)  Sara Diamond discussed the terminology in Roads to Dominion (1995), p.5.  She in fact found trouble with the terminology which Lipset had also noted, but noted that they had continued in use.  While darolew is correct that both the NYT and academic journals are unsympathetic to the JBS, newspapers are more likely to use exaggerated terms.  The Four Deuces (talk) 00:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing that source. But I am a bit confused - hadn't you previously warned against using older references because the meaning of the terms has changed over time? There are many sources from the 1960s which call the JBS "far right", shall we use those as well?  As for the Diamond book, it looks like it might be a good reference for the article, thanks for finding it. Is there any meaningful distinction between "radical right" and "far right"?    Will Beback    talk    01:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Now we're getting into the freakish realm of semantics and philosophy. To Darolew's point: nearly everything on Wikipedia that we say is can also be described as being. It's (mostly) a distinction without a difference. Even when we say something absurdly obvious like "Barack Obama is the President of the United States," it's effectively the same thing as "Barack Obama is described as being the President of the United States," only we don't use the latter because it's too verbose and awkward. So the real problem seems to be pinpointing what the weight of the evidence suggests. I think there's more than enough evidence to characterize them as far right without saying "they are described as far right." But our individual opinions here are just that: opinions. There is really no golden standard for deciding when you should say something is and when you should say it's considered to be.UberCryxic (talk) 01:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * To say something "has been described as", "has been characterized as", "is alleged to be", "has been called", etc., is to include the view, without sanctioning it; to say something "is" is to include the view and to sanction it as correct. There is a world of difference between saying "the TEA Party movement is an astroturfing project" and saying "the TEA Party movement has been described as an astroturfing project". In fact, if you look at Tea Party movement, you can see how the claims of astroturfing are included without ever sanctioning them.


 * It is an indisputable objective reality than Barack Obama is President of the United States; thus saying he is President is obvious. Political designations rarely have that level of certainty. Definitions of 'far right' differ, as do assessments of people and organizations.


 * Given that many,&mdash;perhaps most,&mdash;works on the John Birch Society do not describe them as 'far right' (examples could brought forward), it seems like common sense to me that this view is not accepted in significant quarters. Perhaps this argument does not satisfy you and Will Beback, as you seem to want something difficult, perhaps nonexistent;&mdash;reliable declarations that the JBS is not far right, or that the view they are far right is not dominant. If someone with better research skills than I can find something to that effect, that would be fine; but I would not hold my breath, for reasons already stated.


 * The case is especially difficult with the JBS. When the TEA Party movement is called 'far right' (as it is by CNN: "TEA Party activists are generally on the far right of the political spectrum..."), one can expect conservative media outlets to defend it. The JBS, by contrast, has few friends; the conservative media has been mostly hostile ever since Welch described Eisenhower as an agent of the Communist conspiracy; its conspiracism remains unpopular in most quarters. For this reason, and the aforementioned difficulty in disproving the assertion that a given subject is 'far right' (as a further illustration of this, "fox news is far right" gets 5,880,000 hits, "fox news is not far right" gets only 2 hits), I am not optimistic about finding sources refuting the 'far right' status of the John Birch Society. That said, if I have more time, I will look later, however grim the prospects. --darolew (talk) 05:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand the issue, but virtually every source is going to call the JBS something like "extreme right wing", "ultraright", "radical right", or "ultraconservative". I don't think there's much difference between those terms. We're not going to find any sources, I predict, that say it is "moderate", "mainstream conservative", or any other similar description. Further, many times reporters will use descriptions at arms length, saying "sometimes described as" or a similar construction. But not when it comes to calling the JBS "far right". Most of the 44 sources listed here call it "far right" without any hesitation or wavering. Ultimately, we're just here to report what is found in reliable sources, not to decide the truth on our own.   Will Beback    talk    07:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Will Beback, although Lipset's article is out of date, he and other writers in the 1950s established categories that were adopted by later writers as Diamond points out. I would use the categories that modern academic writers like Diamond use.  The JBS is really a half-way point between the TEA Party and dangerous groups like the clan.  They have been invited to CPAC, many dangerous extremists have been Birchers and their NWO theories have been influential.  If you use terms generally used in academic sources you do not have to say (x describes them as "far right"), you may just write "they are a radical right-wing group".  Then readers can follow sources to find clear definitions of the terms.  The Four Deuces (talk) 15:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Darolew, you didn't address the fundamental problem, which is that any claim has some inherent subjectivity (including this one!). There are people who believe Obama was born in Kenya and he shouldn't be US president, and those people would never call him "the president," so to speak. To a large extent, in other words, certainty is a matter of degree, and on an issue like this, it's very much a matter of opinion. Now there are facts and truths with so much overwhelming evidence behind them that they can essentially be regarded as true without qualification (like evolution, global warming, or Obama being president). If we're deferring to Kant, there has to be some inherent subjectivity in all those claims, but it's effectively ignored because it's very tiny. Having analyzed the relevant evidence, I think it's more than appropriate to simply classify them as far right and not worry about qualifying that statement. I know you'll disagree, and I guess the only way to move forward is to find some sort of new consensus on this talk page. UberCryxic ( talk ) 18:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Qualifier: any claim in natural languages (ie. English, French, etc). I'll accept virtually all mathematical claims stemming from axiomatic set theory as obvious and self-evident. UberCryxic ( talk ) 18:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

How far is "far"
To attempt to place a context with the pejorative "far," I would suggest that violence be present. The Weathermen were "far left", the ACLU is merely "left". The Bolsheviks are "far left". The Democratic Party is merely "left."

The Nazis are "far right". The John Birch Society merely "right."

We don't need to get carried away here. Every left winger or right winger calls his or her opponents "far left" or "far right". This stupidity should not be carried over into this encyclopedia. Student7 (talk) 12:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree, since George Bush and the neocons have been described as far right, along with those who supported the Iraq war. It would seem that everyone on the right is far right, even libertarians and those against the Iraq which includes JBS.--173.31.191.192 (talk) 07:54, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sources? Editors here seems to be trying to define "far". That isn't necessary. The JBS is commonly called "far"; it's sufficient to report that fact.   Will Beback    talk    10:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Here is a source: The Routledge companion to fascism and the far right..  We should use the terminology in reliable sources, which conforms with Student7 and the IP's understanding.  The Four Deuces (talk) 13:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I am unsure that being mentioned in a book with a given title actually is RS for claiming the adjective applies to each and every organization mentioned in the book automatically. Indeed, the Routledge title would then be usable to claim every organization mentioned in it is "fascism"?   Nope.  Routledge's "chronology" includes a great deal of historical information not implying that the people named are "far right" or "fascist" - inclusion in the chronology is insufficient for any claims really at all.  (It starts pretty much with unification of Germany and Italy  and even covers the Kuomintang in China under Sun Yat-Sen, who accepted Soviet aid)   (This is not a disagreement - just an indent to refer to the Routledge example ). Collect (talk) 14:13, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not provide the "title" of the book as an RS, but because it explains the far right. Certainly the book discusses people and groups who are not "far right" including the John Birch Society.  The Four Deuces (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Nothing on the their information linking Al Qaeda to Afgahnistan and the Taliban, or their disinterest in George W Bush's Iraq war. Nothing about their support for the somewhat loony Ron Paul. Instead, you give a terse statement about the abolishing the Fed as if it were immenient. All this can be substantiated. "The Society has been active in supporting the auditing[32] of and aims to eventually dismantle the Federal Reserve System" should word "an auditing" rather than "the auditing". "The JBS is a cosponsor of the 2010 Conservative Political Action Conference.[33][34]" Correction they were a cosponser; it is too late state that they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.31.191.192 (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The Four Deuces suggests we use The Routledge companion to fascism and the far right as a source for a definition of "far right". Which page contains their definition?   Will Beback    talk    22:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Page 5 states, "The 'far right' consists of those anti-Communists and anti-socialists who, in the pursuit of their goals, are also either hostile to or indifferent to the values and practices of liberal democracy. However, their view, that the ends justify the means, even if the means include extra-legal violence, terror and dictatorship, often echo those of the far left."  The Four Deuces (talk) 01:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Great. We should add that to the article on Far right.   Will Beback    talk    01:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

(out) This talk page is to discuss this article, not the far right. Do you think that the JBS fits this standard description of the far right and do you have sources that support that view? I have never read about them being involved in acts of terrorism or calling for the violent overthrow of the US government, although many far right extremists have passed through the group. The Four Deuces (talk) 01:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Far right means extremist. You state they don't advocate overthrow of the US federal government, yet you contend they are hostile toward liberal democracy. It would seem your definition of far right and fascism are not according to historical reality, and seems rather foreign at best. --173.31.191.192 (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * See above for sources that say the JBS is "far right". We don't need to decide on our own if the JBS meets a particular definition. In fact, doing so would be original research.    Will Beback    talk    01:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * OTOH deciding that we think the article should call them "far right" and doing a Google search to find two totally irrelevant journal articles is a clear violation of neutrality. You want the article to say they are "far right" but are unable to find a relevant article that describes them that way, let alone an article that calls them "far right" and explains the term.  For actual "far right" groups, like the Ku Klux Klan or American Nazis, it is fairly easy to find sources like the Routledge companion.  The Four Deuces (talk) 01:59, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You know that there are more than two sources, so that argument seems disingenuous. There are dozens of reliable sources that call the group "far right". There are no sources that say it isn't. The founding of the JBS is included in the Chronology section of the Routledge book, so the editors there seem to consider it as part of their topic.   Will Beback    talk    02:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you have two off topic academic journal articles and various newspaper articles that call it "far right". Routledge do not call the JBS "far right", and it is synthesis to assume they do.  They mention for example the British Nationality Act 1981.  Far right groups in the book are identified.  Clearly the point of view that the JBS is "far right" is unsupported by reliable sources.  You cannot provide a source that explains why they should be considered "far right".  The Four Deuces (talk) 02:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Haven't we already taken this to WP:RSN? Routledge isn't the source on the topic. Unless there's anything else I'll restore it tomorrow. If you still disagree, I suggest we take it to another noticeboard. Since you're now saying that there is a WP:SYNTH violation, shall we ask for views at the WP:NORN?   Will Beback    talk    02:44, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Why do you want to call them "far right" when the term is not used in serious studies of the JBS or the far right? My concern is that articles do not use exaggerated terminology.  The Four Deuces (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * When we began the discussion my objection was to saying the JBS had been described as "far right", which was a source issue. However it is now called "far right", so it is a neutrality issue.  It would be synthesis to say that they are far right because they are mentioned in a book about the far right but so far this has not been done.  The Four Deuces (talk) 03:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * We say that they are far right because that's what dozens of reliable sources say. Dozens more sources use similar terms, like ultra-conservative, radical right, ultra-right, and extremist. I still don't understand why you oppose this so vehemently.    Will Beback    talk    03:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ultra-conservative, radical right, ultra-right, and extremist may be similar terms but they have different meanings. By calling them "far right" we are grouping them with the American Friends of the British National Party, the Ku Klux Klan and American Nazis, when they are more accurately grouped with the militia movement and the Minutemen.  See the category "Far-right politics" for it list of far right groups.  The distinction is that they do not openly support racism, anti-semitism or violence and do not openly oppose the US constitution, even if there is an overlap in membership.  The Four Deuces (talk) 04:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * So you insinuate they support something, which they personally say doesn't work: anti-semitism, violence, and racism.--173.31.191.192 (talk) 15:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.31.191.192 (talk) 14:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Such interpretations echo the ideological leaders of the far-right, such as the John Birch Society and its journal, The New American."
 * Constituting international political economy by Kurt Burch, Robert Allen Denemark 1997 Lynne Rienner Publishers ISBN 9781555876609
 * Yet another source.   Will Beback    talk    05:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You can use Google searches to support anything. The article you found groups the JBS, Pat Buchanan and Pat Robertson as far right.  If you search ""far right" reagan" you can find sources that he was "far right" too.  However the term is normally reserved for quasi-fascist groups.  Incidentally if you want to call them "far right" in the article you should at least explain why your sources call them that.  The Four Deuces (talk) 06:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not an article, it's a book written by two professors of political science.   Will Beback    talk    07:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean psuedo-fascists. Quasi-fascism would describe a marxist who admires fascism.--173.31.191.192 (talk) 15:03, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 173.31, you start many of your comments with "you", but it's not clear who you're addressing. Also, registering a username makes it easier to communicate and offers more privacy.   Will Beback    talk    16:54, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Does the author want to evade the issue? Either there is such a thing as quasi-fascism or it is a made up word which a person can use anyway he wants too.--173.31.191.192 (talk) 18:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes IP "quasi-fascist" is a vague term. My meaning was neo-fascsim, neo-naziism, para-fascism, racial hate groups and similar groups.  The Four Deuces (talk) 19:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * But there is no such thing as neo-fascism. The KKK and Aryan brotherhood proudly claim to be fascist. If you want to compare the John Birch Society to fascism; you need to show what they have in common with the fascist groups. The best you can do is say their planks are similar, and their stance on welfare is perhaps the same. And you know that mentioning Wackenhut would be original research. Furthermore, what fascist system ever recommended getting rid of central banking? --173.31.191.192 (talk) 14:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * IP, read my comments. I said that the JBS is not considered "far right".  The Four Deuces (talk) 18:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

(out) No, it is an article by Mark Rupert in a book edited by two political scientists. The Four Deuces (talk) 07:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You mean Mark Rupert, Professor of Political Science at the top-rated Maxwell School?   Will Beback    talk    07:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not questioning his credentials, merely correcting your statement. His use of the term far right to describe Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson and the JBS is not standard in the literature.  However, I would suggest that the correct way to build articles is to read the available literature and then edit the article.  You should not look for sources to support a point of view and provide references to articles you have never read and have no knowledge of the writers.  Notice that when Chip Berlet cites the article in "When alienation turns right" he changes "far right" to right wing and states that he avoids the term "far right" precisely because it can be used in different ways.  The Four Deuces (talk) 08:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * At the time [1959], the campaign to save Christmas was not widely treated as a matter of great national import. The John Birch Society was generally regarded as a crank, far-right outfit whose paranoid conspiracy theories (it believed fluoridated water was part of an evil communist plot to poison America's brains) put it outside the pale of reasonable discourse. Staffers on the ultra-right 1964 Barry Goldwater campaign tried to prevent Birchers from volunteering because they carried the taint of extremism.
 * "How the secular humanist grinch didn't steal Christmas" By Michelle Goldberg 11/12/2005 Salon.com
 * What were you saying about "standard in the literature"? What's "standard" is calling the JBS "far right".   Will Beback    talk    08:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Welch opposed fluoridation - but I can not find anywhere where his words call it an "evil communist plot" - that part comes from a book on "talking points" for supporters of fluoridation.   Making opponents seem deranged is a common tactic in such "talking points."   Further, the Salon article could be used to descrtibe the Republican party as "ultra-right" in 1964 . Collect (talk) 12:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't use the Salon.com alone since we have better sources, but it's proof that The Four Deuces is incorrect when he asserts that the JBS is not commonly called "far right".   Will Beback    talk    16:22, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Re: fluoridation: There seem to be numerous contemporary and modern sources for that, though I haven't looked for Welch's own pronouncements.    Will Beback    talk    18:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

(out) And the first one? Attributes fluoridation to a leader of ANTI-communist liberals, and does not say anything about the JBS . Number 2? Shows no evidence that the JBS made any claim - just that it was "ridiculed" - seems a teeny bit weak to cite that one . (It states The report concluded that the Environmental Protection Agency’s current limit for fluoride in drinking water—four milligrams per liter (mg/L)—should be lowered because of health risks to both children and adults.) Number 3 is Buckley's editorial opinion -- problem is that I have not been able to find Welch saying it, nor that it was or is a position of the JBS.    Find the statement from the JBS -- else it falls into the same category as the Protocols as to veracity. Would you accept a RS that the Mormons are a "cult" similar to ones with "worshipping of Satan"? . I would trust not. Unless or until one can show that the JBS held or holds an official position, it is wrong to attribute it from the words of those who specifically oppose it. IMHO of course. Collect (talk) 09:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody's proposing to add this to the article. But it's not necessarily wrong.   Will Beback    talk    10:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sufficient unto the day. Ascribing positions to anyone based on claims of their detractors is iffy at best.  Your argument would have allowed the Protocols in as a reference as it is "published" and "verifiable" ("Truth" is not relevant in WP, recall?).  I prefer to be a bit more "conservative" in statements about people, many of whom are alive. Collect (talk) 10:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * What argument is that? We're not discussing fluoridation, we're discussing sources for the JBS being a "far right" group.    Will Beback    talk    10:15, 12 March 2010 (UTC)