Talk:John Brown (abolitionist)/Archive 1

Noted by Henry David Thoreau
It might be interesting to note that Thoreau comments on John Brown in his journals, though perhaps this is too tangential a comment to be included in the main article. Still, Thoreau as the author of Civil Disobedience does have a connection. Here's the quote, supplied from the Blog of Henry David Thoreau (which I browse now and again): Thoreau's Journal: 19-Oct-1859

"Some eighteen hundred years ago Christ was crucified; this morning, perhaps, John Brown was hung. These are the two ends of a chain which I rejoice to know is not without its links.

The Republican editors, obliged to get their sentences ready for the morning edition,—and their dinner ready before afternoon,—speak of these men, not in a tone of admiration for their disinterestedness and heroism, not of sorrow even for their fate, but calling them “deluded fanatics,” “mistaken men,” “insane,” or “crazed.” Did it ever occur to you that a sane set of editors we are blessed with?—not “mistaken men;” who know very well on which side their bread is buttered!" --Taitcha 04:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

probable vandalism
reference the photo of John Brown, 1859, below with http://www.kshs.org/places/johnbrown/history.htm. It looks like the picture here has been altered. I've seen others on wikipedia where the same sploches have been added to other historical figures. I don't know how to go about changing it though... -unsigned

---Well if that picture was "vandalized" the person would be editing it for the worse. This interpretation is completely origional, as they simply used that as a base, and completely redid it. (which I think [think] is legal)either that or the pic on the website is simply a reproduction of that picture (on the wiki). I really don't think this is vandalization because the picture helps the viewer better see a picture oh him, rather than some completely grainy sketch. -zack

I agree with the kid above me. The slightly altered pic helped my friend a lot.Vinaq 17:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)Vinaq

Rephrasing of Killing v. Murder
"On May 24, 1856, in retribution for a pro-slavery attack on the town of Lawrence, Brown led a party that murdered five proslavery settlers in Pottawatomie Creek. Brown later said that he had not participated in the killings but that he did approve of them."

"Murder." Did the five own slaves, or do something else that Brown considered to be a capital crime? Just what was the situation?

Changed word from "murder" to the less emotional word of "killed" as murder, by it's definition, implies wrongful death. --Duemellon 14:45, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. FET 05:42, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

unless there is a declared war,,,, if you drag someone out of their house in the middle of the night in front of their wives and children, and then kill them, unarmed,, and hack their heads to pieces, thats called murder.

they did not own slaves. they were pro slavery and belonged to a political party. look it up folks.

you might also want to talk about how this 'noble act' of john browns helped preciptate chaotic mass killings and 'guerilla warfare', look it up.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HNS/Kansas/jbrown.html http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1912/p/pottawatomie_massacre.html http://www.kshs.org/publicat/khq/1968/68_2_williams.htm

mob violence, lynchings, terror, and eventually, a civil war that would kill 500,000 people. yeah. what a hero.


 * Dear, 199.245.163.1
 * You should sign your posts, I feel weird talking to an IP.


 * But I'll disagree with you because of the word "murder" itself first. Murder, by it's very definition, means a criminal act. There are many situations where people are killed and whether it was an act of murder, mercy, social expectations, or whatever, is strictly POV.


 * ex: abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide, suicide, duels, guerrilla wars, terrorism, civil wars, revolts, etc.


 * Killing is the most neutral terminology.


 * And your view of him not being heroic is also POV. As far as I'm concerned he was heroic, but if I wanted it POV I'd change it to say that he killed these ppl for their evil ways. --Duemellon 16:49, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I noticed someone changed the wording to read that he murdered them.

We can go back & forth changing the wording, or we can discuss it & finally settle. In the article it clearly states that Northern Abolitionists considered him a hero, heros do not murder. Killing is a neutral term. If I wanted to make it sound heroic I'd reword it as punished, enforced, got rid of, executed, or something like that. Please do not change the wording without a discussion otherwise it will just be a silly demonstration of who can log in to Wiki the quickest on that day. --Duemellon 15:09, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Also note I'm considering changing the title of that section's heading as "Massacre" itself is POV. --Duemellon 18:20, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Just so very wrong... It ws murder according to dictionary.com. Murder -the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. Hmm? As for hero, the man was a lunatic, he didn't free any slaves and he helped spark the Civil War, a war that according to many historians never needed to happen to end slavery. As somone said earlier, look it up. And when I say lunatic I mean the man was actually crazy, open a istory book occasionaly. Eno-Etile 15:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Your insulting closing remark suggesting I am unaware of what he did is not conducive to a rational discussion. Murder, by it's definition, suggests it was illegal. What was illegal at the time is not necessarily illegal now, nor can we really judge how justified it was. Simply saying he killed them is appropriate as he was never tried for those crimes. The further wording in that paragraph, not just the title, smacks of POV statements. There are declarations that he "lied" followed by no testimonies or trials to support/prove otherwise. Saying he "killed" them is much different than saying "he began his war on..." The term: "Murder" suggests there was an objective trial done over the incident & there was not. I cleaned up that part of the article to reflect the more neutral terminology of "killed". ALSO: Whether or not his attacks prompted the Civil War is irrelevent to the degree of his possible crime. They might not have owned slaves but they were pro-slavery. --Duemellon 19:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

A)Was starting the civil war horrific? (No disrespect to the horror of the war) John C. Calhoun stated that the south was willing to seceed over slavery, so war was the only option of keeping the union intact anyway. B)I do disagree with his means of killing none slave holders who were no key players in the pro-slavery movement in cold blood. But again, as a jew whose grandparents went through Auschwitz i would say that a german who not only did nothing to stop what was going on, but supported the Genocide,derserved to be hacked to death in cold blood. Wikipedia990 02:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)Wikipedia990


 * A) Slavery was important to some (perhaps many), but far from being the main reason the south wanted to seceed. Despite that, and whatever constitutional arguments could be brought in, personally I do think it was better in retrospect to keep the union intact, even if that ment war. But 1) it need not be that horrific, and 2) the war did not need to be followed by 20 years of plundering of the south. The tragedy was that the only person willing and simmultaneously capable of stoping 2) has just been shot (Lincoln).
 * B) The only time when killing in cold blood can be "justified" is when the target is also engaged actively in killing in cold blood, i.e. solder vs solder. Otherwise, it's war crime, murder, etc. - that plain. As a jew whose grandparents went through Auschwitz you could do as normal jews who themselves or whose relative went through Auschwitz do: show mercy and forgiveness, not only to by-stenders, but even to supporters. That's why they are so respected in the world: not because jews were subject to holocaust (many other peoples at many other times went through horrible things, including genocide), but because they have the moral strength to rise above it. By choosing to hack someone to death in cold blood, you risk to make the same choice as Ossama bin Laden et Co is making: to choose death over life. People who went through Auschwitz know better than that, and that's why they will always be respected. Do not identify yourself with them unless you possess the same moral strength.:Dc76 18:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that what Brown did was wrong, how he went about it, hacking people to death in cold blood. But the reasons he might have did it i can understand. It was still murder though. I'm not saying we should have just murdered all the germans in WWII, but i feel someone like hitler deserved to be killed, but with a trial and a humane death, not hacked. And yes, jews forgave, but i still feel that for jews to forgive the nazi's had to change and apologize.Wikipedia990 19:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Wikipedia990


 * OK, I am starting to understand your POV.
 * However, just want to fix one detail. Being German and being Nazi is not the same thing. It is possible to forgive Germans who suspected or knew what was going on and chose to do nothing. In fact, a civilized person has no choice but to forgive in such situation. And Germans did show remorse for the fact that they allowed a group of their fellow countrymen to do horrible crimes. I wish all nations that had simmilar individuals or groups among them would do even half of what Germans did (primarily, to remind their children at every step to consider the lessons of the past - Germans are among the few who do not try to say "ok, now it's over, let's forget it, we don't want to ever hear about it any more"), that would already be an altogether different world.
 * As to demand a Nazi to change his/her views and appologize - it's impossible. Can a communist, an anarchist, or a fascist appologize and show remorse? How can one appologize for his/her political views, even the most radical and damaging? We can judge the actions, we can call upon care when passionate discourse fringes violence, but for the sake of freedom of speech and thought, noone can forbid anyone to have some kind of political view. A person has the right to say whatever he/she wants, even an a priori wrong thing. It is a different story when he/she starts to implement that. The society should have a developed immunity to these deseases (fascism, nazism, communism, anarchism), but the only way to have the immmunity is to be slightly exposed to the desease. If you have never been exposed to the desease, you will not have the immunity when the infection strikes hard. And, yes Hitler would have been judged if caught alive, just like his fellow leaders of NSDAP. Not for being the leader of Germany, but for ordering many crimes against humanity, for ordering war crimes, and for ordering genocide. It was not a case of nazies against jews, but a case of terror and vandals against civil society and humanity in general. I would always respect a person who listens to the neo-nazi and neo-communist propaganda today just to stay informed, but would have the strength to stand up to them if they stike hard again, than people who just go with the wave both now and then.:Dc76 16:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Whether John Brown thought that murdering people who were pro-slavery was justified punishment for their offenses doesn't mean that it is an acceptable act. Eric Rudolph thought that bombing abortion clinics was justified because he believed that abortion was a horrible act. It doesn't make his actions any more legal or admirable. If this is the only criteria for taking a life (only that you believe that person is wrong) then I fear for anyone in this country who disagrees with anyone else.Monstertrucker 06:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * One important thing to note is he was never tried for that incident & any declaration of "murder" is unfounded by a court of law & that, in fact, is what could determine if it was a murder, self-defense, act of passion, or even if he was the killer or even present! Beyond that, are we supposed to be applying our current moralistic view on historic actions or the views of the time? If we apply the view of the time period it becomes muddier as the North & South definitely differed on their interpretation of those events. The best solution, in this case, is to either chose truly neutral terminology OR present both sides in the same text then label that incident as "controversial" & move on. --Duemellon 13:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think your distinction of what is murder and what is not is very well-founded, else we'd have to write off the idea that Southern lynchings of blacks during the Jim Crow days were murders. But if you're serious, consistency would require that you remove the reference to the "murder" of Elijah Lovejoy.  Nobody was ever charged in his murder.  A few people were tried on the charge of rioting --- rioting, not murder --- and were acquitted by a lawful jury.  If the Possawottomie "killings" represents the standard this article will adhere to, then Lovejoy's death must be referred to in a similar fashion. 71.129.81.136 15:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * John Brown killed people during peacetime, thats murder. He wasn't provoked by any attack and he wasn't acting in defense of himself or others. Also someone mentioned that slavery would have gone on in perpetuity if it weren't for the Civil War; there are some arguments that claim that the institution would have died on its own.Eno-Etile 01:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating discussion, fascinating for being shallow on a heroic scale. George Washington was a traitor of course, this isn't POV just an objective desription of his legal position, "look it up". Don't get me started on Tom Paine......So I should change the Washington article accordingly? It might be fun. Lets talk about the cold-blooded mass murder and torture of children, Harry Truman springs to mind....So let us stop the nonsense and talk in clear. There are people out there who hate John Brown because he fought against slavery; he was a race traitor, a nigger-lover. He did not just moralistically wring his hands; he saw that slavery was far worse a crime than murder, and saw in my view rightly; and he acted accordingly. He saw that if the law countenances slavery then there is no law, and acted accordingly. How anyone (except a full on KKK racist) can maunder on about "legality" in the context of a society that tolerates chattel slavery really is beyond me....that's my POV, and by my POV the POV of every decent person. You will have heard of Dred Scott To any one who opposes slavery John Brown is a hero whatever mistakes he may have made. Jeremy (talk) 09:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * As someone who believes slavery was immoral and violated libertarian principles of self-ownership and free will, I am happy that it does not exist anymore. Had I been alive at the time I would have wished to see it ended as soon as possible.  That does not mean that I approve of all actions taken to end it.  A slave rebellion against owners of slaves would have been more justifiable that the killing/murder of those who merely were in favor of it.  Compensated emancipation would have been another option.  For the record I also think that Truman's targeting of Japanese civilians with atomic bombs was disgraceful.  As someone who is half Jewish, I am surprised to learn that I am "a full on KKK racist" for thinking this way. Monstertrucker (talk) 18:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Replaced "massacre/murder" again...
Intro

The killings that followed and Brown's subsequent capture, trial, and execution are generally considered an important part of the origins of the Civil War.

Actions in Kansas

He went into hiding after the killings, and two of his sons, John Jr. and Jason, were arrested.

replaced massacre--Duemellon 16:24, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actions in Kansas

Brown was particularly affected by the Sacking of Lawrence, in which a sheriff-led posse destroyed newspaper offices, a hotel, and killed two men.

replaced murdered--Duemellon 14:16, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC) (I'll do this as long as it takes. Murder is a POV term.)

John Brown
I would just like to add that John was a abserd crazy person!

And what's the usefulness of your affirmation? 15:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Strange, I think he was heroic. He goes out on a war on his own & he's crazy, but when people in the South did the same & ceceded from the Union, they weren't crazy? He was a man of conviction. --Duemellon 13:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

So, being opposed to slavery and supporting equality among all people makes you an "abserd" (absurd) and "crazy person"? John Brown was a hero in every sense of the word. --Burroughsks88 13:59, 08 October 2005 (UTC)

Not the sense where someone doesn't kill innocent people though
 * You ever read anything about the crazy shit hes said? He was freaking nuts, not everyone who was/is against slavery is a good person, and not everyone who does something 'brave (or stupid)' is a hero.Eno-Etile 15:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Brown was not "freaking nuts," and there is no documentation that he was except what has been written about him subsequently by those who despised him. Many people think he was "nuts" because he showed the kind of concern for black freedom that they neither understood nor manifested. The bias and misinformation that has been spread far and wide about John Brown over the last century is hard to kill, and most of it is based on hearsay, prejudice, and perhaps even underlying racial prejudice.Jbeldee 08:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He killed innocent people in peacetime so either he's crazy or he ust has no excuse whatsoever for his actions. IF an unprovoked prisoner attacks a guard (say the prisoner was convicted due to overwhelming evidence and his own admission of guilt), knowing that hell be shot do we call him a hero for his "bravery?" I myself would call him stupid, suicidal or a lunatic. Eno-Etile 01:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Jame W. Lowen's book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" provides a pretty good defense of Brown's mental state. Brown did use an insanity defense at trial, but very few people believed he was actually insane. his insanity could be argued using the "Massacre" in Kansas, but in reality he was retaliating for previous killings. The only thing left would be Harper's Ferry, which he knew before hand would probably fail, but he believed (in hindsight correctly) that it would polarize the nation, and bring slavery to the forefront of American politics. Kumlekar (talk) 03:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

He was clearly a terrorist and we should inform Homeland Security. :-D Farkeld (talk) 23:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

What the person said before me.
Bold textHE was kind of crazy! I thaughtthat he killed his two sons.
 * you thaught wrong. Kingturtle 13:58, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Need a reversion
Someone removed the content. I hope it wasn't me, but it shows me as the last edit in history... I hope that isn't so. How do you revert? --Duemellon 15:39, 13 September 2005 (UTC) Brrrraaaaap!

abolitionists view John Brown as just

 * The general public in the North, however, especially in abolitionist sectors, viewed John Brown as a martyr who had been sacrificed in support of an unjust cause.

I read this to mean that abolitionists viewed John Brown's cause to be unjust?? --68.198.246.166 13:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

No, Union public opinion, particularly among abolitionists, viewed John Brown as a hero and martyr of Biblical proportions, as it came to view Lincoln. Tom Cod

Controversy
Really, guys. This is a prime situation in which the NPOV policy can be used best. Aside from the little micro-edit war over "kill/murder, etc.", it appears that the larger issue at hand is how to approach such a controversial figure as John Brown. Even 150 years later, there is still not a consensus, and why should there be? The fact is, he really did ritualistically kill and mutilate unarmed men who had been charged with no crime. By the strictest definition, he was a murderer. On the other hand, how to compare this with the incomprehensible moral perversion that was chattel slavery?

For my part, I'm going to hit the books and see if there is anything resembling a modern consensus on Brown's motives and effects. We all know what people thought in 1859, and perhaps we shouldn't conflate these views with what historians say today. After all, though Emerson was a great thinker and a moral man, we are not obliged to take his judgment as the final word. Perhaps a division of sections into "Contemporary Reactions: North Vs. South" and "Modern Interpretations" and how each of these has bled into the other would help. For example, growing up near Kent and Oberlin, I learned in elementary school that Brown was a true patriot; a hero and a martyr. As I've said before, this sort of simplistic, mythical characterization does little in the service of actual history (except to note that in a particular time and place, the myth existed).

So, quit pulling punches. Calling the "Pottawattamie Massacre" his "Actions in Kansas" is a silly attempt to pull the teeth out of history.--62.44.17.74 16:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Damn, I wasn't signed in. Previous comment by--Jaurisova6 16:30, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

The charges against him are for murder. I can't argue that he was tried, convicted, & executed for it. However, how much can we, according to our morality, look back & refer to actions done by the individual in their historical context & judge them by the laws of their time in their lands? If that was so there'd be no such thing as "Nazi War Criminals" except for Hitler who made it law for everyone else. We look back & easily denounce the Nazi's concept as evil and cruel, & would be quick to praise anyone who bombed, captured, or killed, whether they mutilated them or not. So, with slavery being "bad" & those people who were killed being active supporters of slavery, they were evil, but by the standards of morality of that era, Brown was evil. Which do we take? The more universal grandiose "now we know better" POV or the "at the time he was wrong" view? How do we faithfully represent that in Wiki is probably the better question. --Duemellon 13:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but let's not let our concern for academic rigor let us slide into a position where it seems we are drifting into an attitude of nihilism. Clearly, slavery was a moral abomination so that alleged excesses of those who resisted it by killing, or murdering if you will, a few people are of an entirely different character than the mass genocide of Hitler or of the horrors of the middle passage of the slave trade. Let's not forget also that almost three quarters of a million Americans died in the conflict, replete with all sorts of horrors, that shortly followed Brown's demise. Tom Cod 23:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

truth, and other casualties of the culture war
i guess we should redo the veronica guerin article to change 'mruder' to 'killing', because the poor drug dealers that killed her were just doing it in self defense.

truly, when some POV idiot like you gets some kind of standing in the little hirearchical bullshit order here on wikipedia, this is what is going to destroy the place. you are an intellectual dinosaur and have some kind of serious personal disorder to reclassify the killing of children as needing to be presented in a 'neutral fashion' by claiming there is some kind of motive like self defense or politics.

i can only assume that you are in the military or your parents/relatives are in the military and were involved in killing civilian children on purpose. because thats the only reason for someone to take such an idiotic and extreme viewpoint on the 'act'. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.185.250.195 (talk • contribs).


 * Murder is not a neutral term, it denotes judgement. You can say "kill" and still communicate the facts. If you say "murder" it places a subtle element of disapproval. No POV is here to keep fact seperate from interpretation or judgement. Ironically, instead of arguing over which POV is correct, we only end up arguing over what is and is not POV. Can you really say "murder" is not pejorative? Can you really admit that your desire to use "murder" over "kill" isn't driven by your desire to shade Brown a certain way and put a certain color and tone into the article regarding these actions? The word "kill" works perfectly fine, the only reason to object would be that you don't truly want it neutral, which seems clear since your post makes pretty blatant condemnation of neutrality. This is tiresome on Wikipedia, honestly. I don't contribute all that much, but I see this a lot. It's as frustrating as having elected U.S. officials who think that the Constitution is just "a piece of paper". Wikipedia is not perfect, far from it, but if you fundamentally disagree with one of the core founding principles of it, why continue to argue? NPOV isn't just a policy, it's one of the most fundamental to what Wikipedia was meant to be. Surely, objectivity is an ideal we will never meet, but we can do our best. There are, however, other sites which reject objectivity all together, and embrace POV. I am not trying to express a "Wikipedia: love it or leave it" mentality, I am merely pointing out that this particular disagreement pops up quite a lot, and that those who are so constantly pissed off with the whole NPOV thing have an irreconcilable philisophical difference. Rather than have the same types of arguments on every contraversial article, we could better use that energy to include all the facts and figure out how best to present those facts in a way which is as neutral as possible. However, that would first require that all those who reject objectivity to log on to a site where they can add in their own views to their hearts' content. I'm sure there's one out there where you can call John Brown a "cold-blooded madman terrorist murderer and traitor to the blessed Republic of the United States of America, one nation under God (our God, not yours)". Then maybe everyone could be happy!

Thelastemperor 16:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * what does this have to do with John Brown and skip the personal attacks. Tom Cod 23:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Murder may not be a neutral term in some people's opinions but it doesn't matter. Like someone else said he was tried, convicted and sentenced for murder. Why don't we change the words steal, stole, abscond, purloin, etc to "took" or "borrowed" in several articles that way its all "neutral." This PC BS is getting out of hand. Eno-Etile 06:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality of this article?
Not that I am proslavery in any way it seems that this article may not be entirely neutral.
 * Be bold and make changes as you see fit. Kingturtle 22:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The whole first article reads like authoritarian leftist propaganda:

"John Brown (May 9, 1800 – December 2, 1859) was a European-American abolitionist, and one of the first white abolitionists to advocate, and to practice, guerrilla warfare as a means to the abolition of slavery. He first gained national notoriety when he led a company of volunteers during the Bleeding Kansas crisis, in which he fought two major battles against pro-slavery terrorists, directed the Pottawatomie massacre on the night of May 24th, 1856, and liberated 11 slaves from slaveholders in neighboring Missouri. Brown's most famous deed was the raid he led on the federal armory at Harpers Ferry, Virginia (in modern-day West Virginia). Brown's subsequent capture by federal forces commanded by Robert E. Lee, his trial, and his execution by hanging are generally considered an important part of the origins of the American Civil War. Brown campaigned indefatigably against slavery, and he survived financial hardship, betrayal, death threats, and the torture and murder of some of his children all in the course of his campaign against the enslavement of African-Americans. Not even imprisonment and the certainty of execution would stop him from speaking out, unwaveringly, against the horrors of slavery. Brown refused to be rescued from his death sentence by his supporters; he was, it seems, clearly aware that martyrdom might help catalyze the anti-slavery movement. It did. The Civil War followed his hanging, 16 months later."

Slavery was & is horrible. Why would we not call it horrible & herald those who fought it? Can NPOV be used to dismiss claims that the Nazi's regime was cruel & based in generally accepted "evil" doctrine of destruction? Beyond that, which parts of that intro are inaccurate? Please be more specific how you would phrase it, it's quite possible we'd all agree with it. I am also concerned that you used the term "authoritarian leftist" which suggests specific political influence & wondering if you are not, in fact, projecting your own into the piece? --Duemellon 12:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOVs are non-negotiable; Read the rules. I'm against slavery just as much (If not more) than you Just because something is "generally accepted" doesn't mean it should go in an encyclopedia.


 * The article uses the word "terrorist" lots of times to describe Brown's opponents. It fails to ever use it to describe him.  I don't see how this can possibly be neutral.
 * And some of it is just ridiculous.
 * "Critics have yet to properly balance the decision of the Browns (not just John Brown) to take action despite the more conservative admonitions of Brown's sons John Jr. and Jason." What?  No critics anywhere?  How can you possibly decide how well critics have balanced anything anyway?
 * "During their captivity, John Jr. and Jason were beaten and forced to march more than twenty miles a day while tied with ropes or chains; John Jr. suffered a mental collapse and remained psychologically scarred for the rest of his life." If statements about John Jr.'s psychology are sourced and undisputed, I'd be surprised.
 * "But Delany's reflections are not entirely trustworthy."
 * "They never materialized in the numbers he expected; but his expectations have been greatly exaggerated by critics. (Had Brown anticipated a large number of recruits to join him, he would hardly have rented a farmhouse in which to house them.)" Seems like OR to me.
 * "There were clearly tensions between the two friends that were never resolved, which Douglass obviously preferred not to explain in more detail writing so many years after the fact." Words like 'clearly' and 'obviously' are usually signs that it is neither.
 * "Brown may have been a prisoner, but he undoubtedly held the nation captive throughout the last quarter of 1859." This reads like a TV commercial, not a neutral article.
 * Ken Arromdee 14:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

"He was also a terrible, terrible person." <---Not exactly a neutral statement befitting a reference source. By what objective or neutral standard was John Brown a "terrible, terrible person"? Why does this sentence not appear in the entries describing Robert E. Lee, Ernesto Guevara, John Mosby... or, for that matter, Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler? This statement has no place in a source attempting neutrality, objectivity, or integrity. John Brown's actions may not be immune to criticism, but the absolute statement that he "was also a terrible, terrible person" is completely inappropriate. Please remove it right away. Thanks very much.

These are all valid critiques. If I have time this week I will address them. Feel free to beat me to the punch. Kingturtle 03:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * To address Duemellon's questions. "Slavery was & is horrible. Why would we not call it horrible & herald those who fought it?" Why we wouldn't call it horrible is simple.  We (as historians) should not pass judgement on others.  This isn't a forum for preaching against historical evils it is a chronicle of FACTS.


 * The word herald is being used incorrectly (we wouln't herald them because without a time machine we can't). However, I believe that you mean why wouldn't we laud them.  The nazi's have been referenced a few times already so I'll use them to illustrate my point.  The nazi's were evil.  Stalin fought against them.  Why should we not laud Stalin?  Answer: He was a tyrant and a madman.  IOW, two wrongs do not make a right.  There are wrong ways to oppose something that is wrong.  I'm not trying to say Mr. Brown was wrong (atleast not here).  I'm just saying that him opposing something that is percieved as bad/evil (two words that are inherently subjective) is not a valid reason to praise somebody in an encyclopedia.


 * "Can NPOV be used to dismiss claims that the Nazi's regime was cruel & based in generally accepted "evil" doctrine of destruction?" Yes, saying that the Nazi's regime was cruel is an unnecessary and subjective statement that lacks a NPOV.  It's that simple.  Cruelty/evil are subjective.  Where does an encyclopedia derive its right to decide what is and isn't cruel/evil?  As a side note, I would object to the latter part on the grounds that its a weasal word statement.Thus Spaketh Dave? 21:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

So what kind of neutrality do people want here? It appears that what is desired by some is simply a bland, apolitical, and equally non-offensive reading of Brown. I wonder if such a criticism would have been made if Brown were labeled a terrorist and the pro-slavery faction merely called "border ruffians," a term that has long lost its original sense to modern readers. The facts of the story are that free state people were overwhelmed by violence and injustice from pro-slavery forces who initiated the whole problem. This makes them terrorists. Free state people--even the most violent of them, were counter-terrorists. Why does "neutrality" necessitate that both sides be labeled either as terrorists or not at all? It seems to me that this kind of neutrality is simply a kind of misleading compromise. Furthermore, Brown had little benefit of "neutrality" over the past 100 years when it came to what was been written about him, and when historians begin to reassess him, finally, there comes this crying over a lack of neutrality. The fact that someone would think the material as written is "ridiculous" is just an opinion. There is a growing consensus among scholars today that a good many older books, such as written by Malin, Warren, and others are far more ridiculous. The historian's role is not to write narratives that satisfy the most people as being "neutral," but to be truthful and fair-minded. People who have a decided opinion against Brown now must deal with the shoe being on the other foot. The facts, like chickens, are finally coming home to roost, and they do not like it. So comes the crying over a lack of neutrality. Jbeldee 07:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Help !!!
I tried to add a "Reactions in the world" section. However, everything that followed that addition seems not to appear anymore. I tried to check the text itself, and everything nevertheless seems to be in place. Did I goof somewhere ? Can anybody correct it, whatever happened ??? Thank you and apologies :-( 81.65.26.186 15:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like all the rest of the article was considered as a comment, instead of just the comment itself. I uncomment everything so the text will be visible... but the comment too, now. Still needs help. Thank you. 81.65.26.186 15:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Contact with the Mormons
I am reading a book about a woman who was converted to the Church of Latter Day Saints in England and as a consequence emigrated to Salt Lake City. The book says that her group of emigrants was, when they got to Iowa or thereabouts, was guided by John Brown. Can anyone confirm or deny this? I would really appreciate the information. The date would have been about 1855. Thanks.

Toni Williams -- tonicw@yahoo.com entirely plausible. See below Tom Cod

Actually, that was a different John Brown, confidante of Brigham Young, who was from Tennesee and spent much of his time in Mississippi and Alabama before emigrating to Utah in 1846. Our John Brown was not one of the Mormons and would have disapproved of the racist views of blacks they held during this era. Tom Cod 20:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Racist. Right. How many churches back then were openly anti-slavery?


 * To be fair Mormonism is based on the superiority of the proud white American man; its inherently racist.Eno-Etile 06:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The Quakers were openly against slavery


 * Just remember, being against slavery is not equal with not being racist. I've read more than enough accounts that many (if not most) of even the abolitionists were racist; not because they were close-minded or evil, but more because it was a prevailing attitude of the period.  While they despised the institution of slavery, they did not necessarily view blacks as equal to whites.  Most churches of the era reflected that prevailing attitude.  We must be careful when applying 21st century morals, values, and standards to 19th century culture.  People simply did not see things then the way we see them today.


 * As for Mormonism being "inherently racist," that is hardly fact, nor does it have anything to do with this article or discussion. The original question was simply asking if there was a connection between two people with the same name.  All that was needed was the explanation that they were two different John Browns.  The opinions on whether or not the Mormons are racist are irrelevant to the discussion. --JonRidinger 23:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS IS ANTI RACISM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.148.30 (talk) 02:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

chronology?
some of the dates just don't match up in this article...this needs to be checked out

e.g.--"gathering forces"...the "october elections" were in 1859, so this would have happened after "brown left his men in springdale, iowa" in january 1858 --"raid on harpers ferry"...ok, how could brown visit his family for the last time in june(1859) and then arrive in harpers ferry on june 3, 1859? is that really correct?

Brown did not arrive Chambersburg, Pa. until late June 1859, and did not take up residence in Maryland until early July. you can check Villard's chronology, which is quite helpful.Jbeldee 08:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC) _________________________________________________

I read somewhere that John Brown had surveyed Oberlin College and also, according to Ron Chernow in "Titan", had been a teacher at the Oread Institute which existed circa 1854-56 and that one of the students there at one point was Laura Spelman before her marriage to John D. Rockefeller, a yound lad who also admired Brown. (Later they would found endow the founding of Spelman College for black women in Georgia) As I recall, Elizabeth Cady Stanton in "Eighty Years & More" in reflecting on the history of the women's movement from circa 1900 described the Seneca Falls Conference in 1848 and John Brown' attendance there in addition to Frederick Douglass. Tom Cod

Brown indeed did surveying for Oberlin in the early 1840s. His father Owen was a board member (fund raiser) and probably lined him up to do the surveying job for a large tract of land donated to the school. John wanted to settle his family on it, but nothing came of the plan and he moved on to other ventures. His father Owen eventually got off the board, although he sustained a warm feeling for Oberlin. But he was not able to effectively raise financial support for the school, and he was also troubled by Charles Finney's perfectionist theology. There is no record anywhere that Brown taught school, and certainly he could not have been teaching there in the mid-1850s. John Jr. attended the Grand River Institute in Austinburg, Ohio, but that was much earlier than mid-1850s.Jbeldee 08:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

contradictory info in article: was Brown influential or not?; POV
Which is it?


 * (intro) Most historians depict Brown as a bloodthirsty zealot and madman who briefly stepped into history but did little to influence it.

or


 * (Aftermath of the raid) The raid on Harpers Ferry is generally thought to have done much to set the nation on a course toward civil war. Southern slaveowners, fearful that other abolitionists would emulate Brown and attempt to lead slave rebellions, began to organize militias to defend their property, both land and slaves. These militias, well-established by 1861, were in effect a ready-made Confederate army, making the South more prepared for secession than it otherwise might have been.

Also, the passage from the intro seems to have been written by someone with an axe to grind (emphasis added):
 * Most historians depict Brown as a bloodthirsty zealot and madman who briefly stepped into history but did little to influence it. Some scholars, however, glorify Brown, giving him credit for starting the American Civil War and even the Civil Rights Movement a century later, arguing "it is misleading to identify Brown with modern terrorists." 

I'm probably going to tone that down eventually if no one objects.--Birdmessenger 19:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not condtradictory, it just says what some historians think and what other historians think. T REX speak 20:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, it says that "most historians" think he "did little to influence history." Later, it says that "[t]he raid on Harpers Ferry is generally thought to have done much to set the nation on a course toward civil war."--Birdmessenger 21:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, I thought that you were talking about the historians calling him a zealot and a few others glorifying him. T REX speak 16:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

So now the passage reads:
 * Many historians depict Brown as a bloodthirsty zealot and madman who briefly stepped into history but did little to influence it; that is, the Civil War would have happened without him.

I agree that this minimizes the contradiction, though it doesn't eliminate it. I have added a citation needed tag to that sentence. Which historians depict him as bloodthirsty and as a madman? Modern historians? Southern historians in 1870? A citation is important here.--Birdmessenger 14:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate/Unnecessary Phrases
In the section Early Years, the sentence 'He was very brave.' is not needed and is strictly subjective. Removed. ."--Maz2331

In sections "Early Years" and "Actions in Kanans" two lewd commends had been tagged on to the section headers. I removed them. --Marion

Economic motive to fight slavery missing?
Maybe I missed something here, but the article doesn't give a compelling reason for John Brown to become an activist in anti-slavery. Why did this man with a large family - who was obviously often very poor - "waste" his time on anti-slavery conventions and risk his life - when poor people mostly don't have the time to talk about ideals unless it's directly affecting their own lives? There must have been some economic motive (slave-owners as stronger economic competitors maybe?) that made it so important that Kansas rejected slavery.ALu06 13:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)ALu

- That´s very marxist of you to think that someone can´t act without economic reasons.

I don't mean "economic" in an ideological way. John Brown was not a rich man. Was his fight a desperate choice or was it normal? Were there other reasons to fight slavery that moral ones?ALu06 13:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)ALu


 * if someone offered Brown $500 to go back home and stay quiet would he do so? $1000? $5000? Rjensen 13:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't mean bribery. I mean survival. In the 1800s, social security wasn't that common. I'd like to know whether he had a personal motive to fight that affected him directly.ALu06 21:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The whole point of the John Brown story is that the man had a personal and ideological commitment to fighting slavery that grew to the point that he was finally compelled to throw himself into it "full time." His earlier years were largely taken up with "making a living" and trying to succeed, but there is good evidence that even this was a way that he hoped would allow him to use wealth to support abolition, as did Gerrit Smith.  In Brown's case, his sense of religious belief and calling were the driving force and his family shared that commitment.Jbeldee 08:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
Before I comment my edits, I would like to note that I am not an American, and that as 99.99% percent of people, I dispise both slavery and murder, as some of the most evel things that mankind had and has. I recently learned who John Brown was, and was obviously currious to find out more on Wikipedia. Unfortunately, I found a very long article, rather suitable for a sermon, not a short and down-to-facts description. Sure, the topic must be still controvercial in your country, but I can not understand when people find time to learn and write so much about a subject, but are not able to learn to do it in a concise, informative way, that is useful for everyone else, who's not a specialist in the subject. I read through the talk page, and NPOV issue was raised here, but not many specific observations to the text were made. In my edit, which only refers to the first 2 sections, I tried to single out words and statements that I, as an outsider without any oppionion about Brown, see as non-fit for an encyclopedia.

At the begining, the article is written in a more neutral tone, from section 2 it becoumes very passionate. I added:
 * where I expect the statement to hold, but it would be nice to have a link to the sourse right away in the text
 * where the exposition becomes too passionate, and in the heat of the word, it states strange things, in situations where a simple re-wording would make the thing sound neutral
 * where I saw claims somewhere else to the opposite, and hence several scholarly, preferable peer-reviewed sourses were better to be present
 * where the text contains no information but only oppinions. Such parts must be re-written, and shortened. It is logically to assume that the general reader would not be completely stupid as not to be able to form an oppinion from given facts (hence it is not necessary to give coments in an encyclopedia article). It is also logically that the general reader would not be some pro-slavery insane person (such person anyway would not be convinced neither with solid facts, nor with elaborate althogh sometimes uncenessary comments)
 * I also erased some weasel words and re-arranged some sentances, where it was obvious how to make a passionate text more neutral

I have tried to do all edits in good faith. It would be nice, if the article could be shortened. Sometimes the same fact is repeated 3-4 times throughout the text, and instead of emphasizing the point, this gives to a non-American the (most probably wrong) impression that that's the only supporting fact for a conclusion that the editor wants to support. Wikipedia is usually read by people who like to see facts, and draw their own conclusions, while comments and oppinions are in the links at the bottom of the article; calling someone "thug" or "terrorist" gives the opposite impression than providing a cool account of the deeds. It is strange that because of a passinate non-factual exposition I am in the situation to "defend" the right of people with whose oppinions I strongly disagree not to be called "thugs" and "terrorists". We are not stupid to deduce each for himself/herself that a person or a group of persons are "evel", "thugs", "badly intended" etc - it is not necesary to convince us by writing in a semi-propaganda style. I hope you understand. My critique might sound to you too harsh, but I hope that it will generate a move towards more cool and factual exposition. :Dc76 17:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that calling people "thugs" is clearly a matter of POV. However, I think that terrorist (in reference to the Kansas Ruffians, or to John Brown himself) is less of a judgement than a statement of fact.  The Ruffians really were engaged in terrorism.  There was a stated political goal (to see Kansas join the Union as a Slave state).  This goal was pursued through intimidation and murder/killing.  That is terrorism.  Similarly, John Brown engaged in terrorism. Thus Spaketh Dave? 16:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I will make myself clear if I give an example. At the very top of the article:

''His attempt to start a liberation movement among enslaved blacks in Virginia in 1859 electrified the nation. He was tried for treason (to the state of Virginia) and hanged, but his behavior at the trial seemed heroic to millions of Americans.''
 * My comment is there because I have read also that he was planing to raise a rebelion of enslaved blacks in oreder to undermine the southern states, and that such a course of action was part of a bigger plan to diminish the influence of southern states in the union, even if necessary to brake the union. So my question is: did Brown wanted only to free slaves by his rebelion (in which case the text as is is perfectly ok), or he wanted (also) to undermine the southern states' position in the union (in which case the text must be changed accordingly), or maybe even he wanted the dissolution of the union alltogether, so as not to have to deal with southern states at all (in which case even more must be editted). Now, to me the second seems more likely - but since I don't know, I ask, what were the exact motives and aims of Brown? Eere they only limitted to liberate the stlaves?
 * My comment refers to the fact that when in one state a person is tried for treason and hanged, in anouther he is a hero, and these two states live in the same country in peace and (at least partially) in harmony, any logical person wants a well-referenced citation. Surely some viewed him as a hero, it will be very nice to know who, and in what terms they described him. A person like Brown surely was not viewed as black or white during his time. To know who during that time viewed Brown and how, is to indirectly learn about Brown himself. Also I read that many of the future northern generals were present at Browns trial, and that they considered him a trator, too, and not only to Virginia, but to the Union as a whole. Is that true? :Dc76 17:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Without adding anything new to the section, I'd just like to say that I've been using Wikipedia for a long time and I've never been confronted with a page so much in need of help. The conflicting POV's make it almost intelligible what he actually did. I think there needs to be a compromise between the two parties as to how to form a factual, informative page without going on leftist or rightist rants. I'm personally kind of dissapointed. 24.44.93.136 23:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll put it even more strongly: This article, and the associated talk page, are rapidly becoming a poster child for why the Wiki model is in need of adjustment. Perhaps it's too much to expect an entire encyclopedia to speak with one voice, but an individual article that cannot find a single voice is hopeless. 128.165.87.144 21:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Not-American scholar: Your thoughts and criticisms are appreciated and you raise legitimate concerns, but I suspect that the problem you perceive is more based upon the fact that the Wikipedia model is pushed to the limit when it involves a controversial figure like Brown--perhaps the most controversial figure in U.S. history. On the other hand, perhaps you expect too much and rather than inserting numerous demands for documentation, you should read some leading biographies and acquaint yourself with the literature in more detail.Jbeldee 08:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Pottawatomie
The first sentence of this section reads "Brown's letters show that he and the free state settlers were optimistic that their sex would bring Kansas into the union as a slavery-free state". This seems odd to say the least unless the settlers were all male (which is the least disturbing interpretation, but is not really plausible). For the moment, I've just altered it as I'm not sure what the editor meant to say. Doc Meroe 05:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ever heard of a thing called vandalism? :) --Anonymous44 14:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

All recent scholarship?
See my objections on the American Civil War talk page.--Anonymous44 03:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) the job of Wiki is to report what the experts say, not to introduce OR because one editor disagrees with the experts. 2) Historiography is important (expert X says this, expert Y says that...) and shoiuld go in a separate section, nit the lede. Rjensen 14:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Reporting what the experts say is precisely what I've been doing, so I don't understand how you can be saying this to me. As for the lead - I agree; I made it so detailed just to avoid the previous summary, which I believe is inaccurate and one-sided, and to let the readers decide for themselves rather than trust other people's summaries. The "a bloodthirsty zealot and madman" phrase is from a review which cites works by Oates and Boyer as the source of that view. I am citing Oates and Boyer themselves instead, and the statements and spirit of the quotes from them appear to be precisely the opposite of that phrase. Thus, I think the phrase should be skipped. --Anonymous44 19:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * the experts say bloodthirsty. Oates for example. Has to be included. Rjensen 19:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You still haven't quoted Oates as saying that. Please do so. --Anonymous44 11:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Was Brown a madman?
"Madman" has two meanings, both in play. 1) was he psychotic? People in 2007 who believe God has ordered them to kill people and try to act accordingly are locked up in mental hospitals, with very little debate indeed.  2) as a public leader his ideas were out of touch with reality. He seemed to believe that if 50,000 slaves rose up he could create a happy little kingdom in the mountains. In reality 90% would get killed or hung, and maybe a few would escape. His plan was beyond "crackpot" it was insane. Rjensen 20:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

"People in 2007 who believe God has ordered them to kill people and try to act accordingly are locked up in mental hospitals," Or elected President. "he seemed to believe that if 50,000 slaves rose up he could create a happy little kingdom in the mountains." see black seminolesDufaeth 03:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Happy kingdom? Not a phrase I'd used to describe any group of Seminoles.Eno-Etile 06:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Images
Image:JohnBrownStatue1911.png

or

Image:BrownMemorial1911.png

Anyone prefer one or the other? J. D. Redding

Removed unreferenced claim by User:167.135.48.155 that "John Brown was Gay."
introduced a claim in this edit that "John Brown was Gay." I suspect that this edit was vandalism and in any event unreferenced, so I have removed the claim. --Eastmain 17:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * YHBT. Look at the edit history. The Evil Spartan 18:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

John Brown's Body
I undid an edit which stated that the song is erroneously thought to be about this John Brown. It is true, as the article on the song clarifies, that the origin of the song is unclear. It may have been about a different John Brown when it was first sung. But the song spread and became famous because of its connection to John Brown the abolitionist. By the time it was a "Union marching song" it was most certainly about this John Brown. Historians do not dispute this point. Taranah 15:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

His children
I was wondering if something more should be added about Brown's children? It is possible to add a summation that he had 20 children and 8 of them died soon after birth or in early childhood.

Also, the fact that he was very religious in his Calvinism and that he expected his children to follow rules he set forth exactly as he said. Especially in his ledger he wrote,

''John. Jr.''

For Disobeying mother......8 lashes

For unfaithfulness at work........3 lashes

For telling a lie.......8 lashes

Interestingly enough, his ledger of his punishments for his children resemble a master's accounts of correcting his slaves. It seems Brown never noticed this though.

Is this information worthwhile enough to be put into this article?Silver seren 23:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Without any context I'm not sure this sheds much light on John Brown. Though interesting from a theoretical/psychological standpoint, corporal punishment was accepted as a standard childrearing technique in his era.  More importantly, in order to be included we would need to find a secondary source which describes this as notable.  Otherwise it is original research.  Taranah 22:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, its from the Academic Decathlon USAD Superquiz resource and I know that they use notable resources. I'll just have to go look up what their sources are for this.Silver seren 22:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

A neutral mind is needed at times
i've noticed many people have various POV's on the subject of John Brown, what is to be remembered is the time in era this happened. Yes, many were killed in his excursions to justification, but what everyone should keep in mind is that in that era of time, these were the ways to settle an issue.

No, im not saying i okay this, and im not saying that you should either, but rather, you should OPEN your minds and realize that time and justification idea's have evolved tremendously throughout the ages, and you shouldnt cast the first stone.

and as far as John being hard on his children, well, remember the time frame.That was as normal as putting a child in the corner is today.

I mean, thinka bout it. Today, there are still various ideas of right and wrong when it comes to punishment.We have lethal injection, and the oppsed idea that they should sit in jail forever.

No body is right, and no body is wrong, it is all personal opinion.

I have one bit of advice though:

read William Lloyd Garrison's "On the Death of John Brown"

and maybe it will shead some light on the subject of his movement.

meagan.l.a.bMeagan.L.A.B 21:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

furthermore-

i would like you guys to read John Browns speech that he gave to the court upon being sentenced to death. This, as well, will shed some light.

I believe it is just called "On Being Sentenced To Death"

(its in one of my books about "great speeches", it gave me chills...)

thanks! Meagan.L.A.B 21:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how that is a proper defense or justification for anything that he did. You can't absolve John brown for his crimes anymore than you can pardon western outlaws of the 1800s for committing heinous acts just because thats how things were done. Eno-Etile 06:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The Raid
The second paragraph in John Brown (abolitionist):


 * In late September, the 950 pikes arrived from Charles Blair. Kagi's draft plan called for a brigade of 4,500 men, but Brown had only 21 men (16 white and 5 black - three free blacks, one freed slave, and a fugitive slave). They ranged in age from 21 to 49. Twelve of them had been with Brown in Kansas raids. (My emphasis)

Um, isn't a freed slave a free black? And what about that fugitive slave? Hadn't he (or she) freed himself (or herself)? — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 03:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The citations don't actually cite anything!
While they are very nicely numbered, the citation footnotes don't actually lead anywhere, nor is there anything corresponding to them at the bottom of the page. Somehow, I don't think that's quite right. Can someone please fix this? 70.112.248.146 02:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I fixed it. Someone removed the references tag. futurebird 02:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, that was fast! Thanks. 70.112.248.146 02:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Long inro
The introductory paragraphs are too long. Can some with more knoledge of the subject material than me try to incorporate most of the into text into the body of the aticle? Thanks, Hu Gadarn (talk) 20:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Portrayal in 'North and South'
John Brown did actually appear briefly in the miniseries 'North and South' in Book I, Episode 5. That should be added to the screen portrayals section. I'll try to find out the actor's name and other details. --Helmold (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Silly me, he was actually portrayed by Johnny Cash. I've added a few lines on this portrayal, but will have to find a reliable source to reference (other than Wikipedia and the 'North and South' DVD boxset). I also feel uneasy about commenting on it, since that's really opinion and I can't reference it. --Helmold (talk) 23:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Bruce Olds and John Brown
In the introduction, it is stated that, "While some biographers, such as Bruce Olds, see him as a madman...."

This is factually incorrect on two counts. One, Bruce Olds is not a biographer, of John Brown of anyone else. He is a novelist. He writes fiction. And two, Bruce Olds does not "see" John Brown as a "madman."

Placing to the side the fact that the word "madman" is so generic, unscientific, and emotionally so loaded as to be virtually meaningless, Bruce Olds "sees" John Brown, as is correctly stated later in the entry, as "fanatical, monomaniacal, a zealot, and psychologically unbalanced." That quotation is lifted from a television interview in which Olds proceeds to state that whether such a description merits the word "mad," is problematic at best.

Further down in the entry, under the heading 'Posthumous view of Brown's character,' we come to the statement, "Even the hostile fiction of Bruce Olds has been put aside...."

Once again, this is factually incorrect on two counts. One, no critic or reviewer of Olds's Pulitzer prize-nominated, widely-praised novel, "Raising Holy Hell," ever characterized it as "hostile," to John Brown or anyone else. And two, the novel, far from having "been put aside," remains in print and selling well a dozen years after its publication.

The fact is, if Olds's novel is hostile on any level, it is hostile to the institution of slavery. Granted, the novel does not portray Brown as "heroic." It is not an exercise in hagiography. But neither does it portray him as "mad" or bad or evil. Rather, it portrays him as human, one both tremendously flawed, but equally tortured. One capable of great brutality, but of commensurate tenderness.

The entry, then, because it does a great disservice to Olds and, more importantly, becaused it mis-represents and mis-characterizes his work, is in need of editing in this respect.

Thanks.24.149.135.73 (talk) 16:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Bruce Olds
 * Please go ahead and make the changes you see fit. Help :) I will try to get it myself, but I am a little busy right now. Kingturtle (talk) 04:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

"Baby kissing before going to the gallows" pictures
Somebody put the two baby kissing pictures together, and I thought it best to at least align them, but now I will malign them. We don't need 2 pictures of the same mythical (i.e. false) event. By all eye witness accounts, the troops didn't allow any non-official participant to get anywhere near Brown as they were taking him from the jail to the gallows. One of these might be useful as an illustration of the media campaign surrounding his hanging (probably the older B&W one), but two are at least 1 too many. I'll remove the newer one, unless somebody objects Smallbones (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Question about citation (Me is new)
In the section "Posthumous view of Brown's character", it says, "Unfortunately it is also this less studied, highly interpretive view of Brown that has prevailed in academic writing as well as journalism[citation needed]. " I am wondering if James W. Lowen's Lies My Teacher Told Me (New York, NY: Touchstone, 1995) could be used for this citation. It is primarily critiquing American high school textbooks, not secondary sources, but is highly critical of their treatment of Brown. Lowen cites 18 textbooks in his 2007 edition (12 in the 1995 edition), and comes to the conclusion that none give a fair description of Brown.

Um, to simplify the above, do textbooks (tertiary sources) count as "academic writing as well as journalism"? Kumlekar (talk) 03:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say site it, and then make it required reading for anyone that wants to edit this article. --66.31.174.231 (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Connection to George Brown (Canadian Politician/Father of Confederation)
Does this John Brown have any connection to George Brown (Canadian politician)? I have recently stumbled across an article from a local historical society in the 1970s. The article states that George Brown, who father was John Brown, also had a brother, James. Did the abolitionist, John Brown have brothers? If so, do we know who they were and what became of them? Perhaps this article means that George Brown was son of John Brown Sr. Also George Brown was born in 1818, when John was married in 1820. Either ways I am reading this historical society paper with a grain of salt, perhaps it was a mixture of facts and fiction to make one heck of a Brown family story! Funny how something written in the 1970s can now be so easily investiaged with the help of the internet. Jhazon (talk) 20:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

John Brown in Chambersburg
{editsemiprotected}John Brown used the Ritner Boarding House (now known as the John Brown House) in Chambersburg, PA as a base for the transshipment of arms and supplies to the Kennedy farm where the Harpers Ferry raid was mounted. His Secretary of War, John Henry Kagi, resided at the Ritner Boarding House from early Spring till October, 1859 while Brown and others in the group spent short periods at the house. In August Brown met Frederick Douglass at a quarry in Chambersburg and tried to convince him to join the conspiracy, but Douglass refused. After the raid some of the survivors made their way back to the house, but were refused aid by Mary Ritner because the house was being watched. Pafranklin (talk) 17:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

When did he actually die?
HANGED ON DECEMBER 2, 1859

This article, as well as other sources such as http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=137, says that John Brown was executed on December 2, 1859. But Victor Hugo's letter (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Victor_Hugo%27s_letter_to_the_London_News_regarding_John_Brown) makes it clear that the execution was scheduled for December 2, but delayed until December 16. Should we change the date of death? Or is Hugo's letter in some way not reliable enough to do this?

NotKasparov (talk) 03:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

"slavery or not???"
This phrase is written under "early life" but I cannot seem to find it when I edit the page. Can somebody else delete it? TheStripèdOne (talk) 21:26, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It was vandalism to Template:Events leading to US Civil War. It's been fixed now. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Douglass quote
The text attributed to Douglass at the end of the aftermath section has been compiled from different parts of his actual essay; it does not appear as quoted. A properly-elided version of Douglass's original text, which can be found at archive.org and elsewhere, might be as follows:

But the question is, Did John Brown fail? [...] If we look over the dates, places and men, for which this honor is claimed, we shall find that not Carolina, but Virginia — not Fort Sumpter, but Harper's Ferry and the arsenal — not Col. Anderson, but John Brown, began the war that ended American slavery and made this a free Republic. [...] His zeal in the cause of my race was far greater than mine — it was as the burning sun to my taper light — mine was bounded by time, his stretched away to the boundless shores of eternity. I could live for the slave, but he could die for him. --74.15.76.38 (talk) 23:52, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Apparently I never tried to edit a vandal-proof article before. Has it always been like this?
Look, I just like to read articles. And when I happen upon a spelling error or a misplaced punctuation mark or an egregiously obvious grammatical error, I do what I can to correct it. I've never been asked to join or anything. Is this new?

Anyway, my whole reason for engaging in this dialogue (I assume someone will be reading this. Will they respond?) is the fact that in the third paragraph of this article, it states, " he led on the federal armory at Harpers Ferry, Virginia." He led what on the federal armory? Or was this a misspelling, and did he in fact deceive the federal armory, leading them on? I assumed the sentence was supposed to read, "He led a raid on Harpers Ferry." And that was all I was going to add.

So as near as I can determine, now a member of the Wiki Adepts or whoever will review my petition for change and perhaps make the correction on my behalf. Is that correct? Will I be informed of the change? Or will I simply have to trust that my humble editorial suggestion was taken into consideration and then acted upon with due diligence? I suppose I will simply have to check the article on John Brown in a few days to see.

Anyway, thanks for being the worlds best free library.

Gusstraub (talk) 11:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Palmyra and Osawatomie
An editor left a comment after the first sentence in this section of the article: "Please explain; the Sack of Lawrence is mentioned above as preceding Pottawotomie."

Perhaps the article isn't clear on the chronology of the events in Kansas. Could somebody take a look? Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)