Talk:John Browning/Archive 1

Patents Added
I've done some intensive primary research. With some great pains, I've gone through and verified prior sources for information on what patents John Browning was issued. Unfortunately, I've only come up with 79 of them. I'd greatly appreciate anybody who has more of these patents posting them as well. --Asams10 12:45, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I have found 128 US patents for John M Browning, I am not certain if there are more (I stopped at 128!). It was not a "simple process"! I was thinking of creating another page with the patents but you may wish to have them listed here.

This is a long time-interval from your original post. With the 100-year anniversary of the 1911 handgun I became more interested in John Browning.

I am new to Wikipedia contribution and uncertain how to proceed. I was thinking of inserting patent numbers and allowing someone else to complete the process of linking and describing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briggs k (talk • contribs) 15:25, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Browning Model 1903 article requested
I'm wikifying Trent's Last Case for Wikisource, and in Chapter 12 Bentley refers to
 * ... Kurland and Livonia, where Citizen Browning was abroad again, and town and countryside blazed in revolt.

First of all, I'd like some slightly-more-expert confirmation of my guess that "Citizen Browning" refers to the Model 1903, which would have been used by the Russian troops (and not e.g. to just any old gun, or to John Browning himself). Second, I'd like to be able to have a bluelink directly to the appropriate article, rather than to a biography of the gun's inventor, which means I need a new article on the gun in question!

I have approximately zero knowledge of firearms, and this looks like a tricky one to Google, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much! --Quuxplusone 21:59, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Colt 1903 article help.
You'll probably have to create an article yourself. Here's a picture to help you from my private collection. Public Domain. --Asams10 03:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

strike that, reverse it
this page should redirect to John Moses Browning, not the other way around. pauli 19:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Production
I would dispute the assertion that "several of the models are still in production" the repeating pump and lever shotguns have not been made by the original manufacturers in several decades. The Winchester 1894 is the only production lever gun they still make. The 1895, 1892, and 1886 have been made as limited edition collectors items, but that is not "still in production" to me. Similarly, the only automatic weapon "still in production" is the M2 50 caliber machinegun. edited by George Chabot

George, you are disputing an assertion that has not been made. What was said was: "Several of his designs are still in production today." That statement is indisputably correct. His designs include the 1911, Hi Power and all of the "ACP" cartridges, these alone satisfy the "several of his designs" criteria and are obviously in current production. There are of course others, these are the most well-known designs and have been in continuous production since their inception. - (a concerned reader that has no idea how to sign their comments and frankly doesn't care to :)


 * George. Please research how to add and sign your comments. Now then, your point that the gun isn't being produced by the original producer is irrelevant. Browning designed guns were made under license sometimes by FN, Colt, Remington, Stevens, or a combination of those. There were unlicensed copies made as well and these made all over the world. The current production of guns of his design does not need to be at the Browning Arms facility in Utah or the Original FN plant in Belgium, nor by any iteration that was ever licensed to produce them. There are several models still in production. Notably, the 1911, Ithaca 37, 1886, 1897, and some of his 22 models whose names escape me now. Yes, the M2 is also in production in near original form as well.
 * If you want to get overly technical about it, only one of his 'models' was ever produced and that was the Low-Wall. In every other instance, Browning sent a working model that was re-engineered for production. --Asams10 16:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

On production... With the exception of the original single shot -- which taught JMB all of the reasons why manufacture in Utah was a bad idea, particularly a hundred or so years ago -- no Browning guns were ever made there. The company headquartered there contracted out manufacturing, mostly to FN in Belgium and, post-1960s, Miroku in Japan. Probably the most widely produced of his sporting arms today are the .22 semi-auto and the superposed shotgun (which is made by FN, and by Miroku both under the Browning brand and its own.) This is not to say that they are exactly the same guns as Browning designed -- indeed he died before finishing the single-trigger for the superposed and both that and the ejector mechanism have evolved over the years. But the guns are still recognisably his. Yajaboo 11:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

--Topnife 22:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)== Format for list of firearms == I've added a comment to the main page about the format for a list of firearms. I'm trying to keep the list standardized and short. I feel that any commentary or interesting tidbits should be limited to articles on the individual firearms. Each firearm should also have its own line. Please comment on this here. Thanks.--Asams10 21:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Re the Product Listing: I believe that Browning was also responsible for the Winchester Model 1886 Lever Action Rifle, the Model 92 Lever Action Rifle, and the Model 71 Lever Action Rifle. Should these be included on that list? --Topnife 22:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Biography
There's little info about the man in what is supposed to be a biography article. How did he die? Did he do anything in life which wasn't related to guns? --172.145.203.21 01:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh, it says how he died and virtually his entire life was devoted to guns too. The article talks about his son, his religion and his stint as a Mormon missionary. Heck, even while on a mission, JMB was still thinking about guns. Please don't try to make your point by skimming the article and making false assumptions.--Asams10 21:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Why dates are linked
The reason for linking dates that contain a specific year, month, and day is that it allows each user's preference for date format (output mask) to display dates in the way that he/she prefers. For example, when I view this John Browning article, on my PC screen, this is how it looks:
 * John Moses Browning (1855-01-21 – 1926-11-26), born in Ogden, Utah, was an American firearms designer who […]

… because I have my date format preference set to YYYY-MM-DD. This is discussed further at Manual of Style (dates and numbers). It is not vital, but it is a nice feature. Lumbercutter 02:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Rename to John Moses Browning?
I suggest renaming the article to John Moses Browning, to further assist in differentiating the subject from his father, John/Jonathan Browning. I see that it's been discussed once before, in early 2006, and was not discussed further. Pfagerburg 15:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think that it could be argued that his father, Jonathan Edmund Browning should have an article of his own. This is due to his importance as the primary arms manufacturer to the Mormon pilgrims and the efficiency of his multi-shot 'harmonica' rifles.D.E. Watters 04:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * His father does have an article, Jonathan Browning. Not to mention few if anybody looking for "John Browning" would seriously be looking for the elder Browning.--Asams10 05:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Cartridges
It is arguable if J.M. Browning had any role in creating the cartridges for his firearms. The .32 and .38 ACP cartridges are credited to Winchester, the .25 and .380 ACP have been credited to UMC employee William Morgan Thomas, and the .45 ACP and .50 BMG were Winchester/Frankford Arsenal developments. D.E. Watters 04:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Controversy in firearm used in Archduke Franz Ferdinand assassination
What firearm was used in Archduke Franz Ferdinand assassination, Browning Mod. 1900 or 1910? There is controversy between articles "Jonh Browning" and "Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand". Please revise for precising. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.0.210.102 (talk) 14:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no controversy. It was a model 1910. Do we have to go back and change the assasination article again? --Asams10 (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, I did. For some time, it was ASSUMED that the pistol used must have been a 1900 though all accounts, records, and serial numbers were of the Model 1910. It was also ASSUMED that the .32 ACP was used, but again they even had the .380 caliber bullets recovered so yep, it was a .380. Frustrating, yes. --Asams10 (talk) 18:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Where are the Colt and FN chapters?
There are four chapters still missing. I tried to add the part where Browning actually made his own firearms, but there are four other phases in Browning's life that need covered. First, Browning had a falling-out with Winchester and went to Remington to offer them his Auto-5 shotgun. When the president of Remington died and was obviously unable to meet with Browning, he went to Belgium and partnered with FN. Second, Browning had Colt build and market his machineguns and pistols. Third, Browning designs were sold to others including Savage (the model 520) for production. Fourth and finally, Browning designed the BAR, machineguns, and an automatic Cannon for the United States military. I believe his design history should be broken up into subsections:
 * 1) Pre-Winchester
 * 2) Winchester
 * FN
 * 1) Colt
 * 2) Military Weapons
 * 3) Freelance Work

--Asams10 (talk) 18:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

WTF!? 1911
He designs THE MOST POPULAR and famous handgun in the world, the 1911, and it only gets half of one sentence??? Heck, the stupid 1910 gets a full section (and it's use is in dispute).

70.253.66.190 (talk) 16:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * First, a 1911 was NOT used to start a war. Second, your opinion is just that, an opinion and falls under WP:POV. This article is about the Man, not His inventions. The 1911 is not the most significant firearm He designed. That honor falls, in my opinion, to the BAR, the M1919, the M2, Model 1895 Machinegun, M1899 pistol, M1897 shotgun, and Auto 5 shotgun in that order followed by the 1911. That excludes the 37mm Cannon He designed as well. What else can you say about the 1911 here? Uh, it's popular? Great, say it and see if it's significant to stay... in the article on Browning. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 16:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is indeed a significant firearm. It was an AMERICAN sidearm for 74, longer than most russian guns, which stay in service for long periods of time. It was the first gun with a slide. it is regarded by many as the best handgun ever. it also may not have started a war, but it sure as hell helped win WW2.--Krasilschic (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * First, take a breath. I didn't say it was insignificant, only that the 1911 pales in comparrison to his other inventions. That's my POV as well, but I Can certainly back it up. The 1911 has a significant article that covers more than enough. No need to make this article about a single gun. I have no problem with your edits, btw. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No it doesn't. He invented the semi automatic pistol. Semi Auto pistols may not be the most effective combat weapon, but think about media: james bond, casablanca, cross of iron, die hard, saving private ryan, etc...--Krasilschic (talk) 20:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * While I totally agree that Browning invented the semi-automatic pistol as we know it today, he did not invent the semi-automatic pistol. That distinction goes to other designs that preceded Browning's work including the first successful commercial semi-auto pistol, the Borchardt C-93. Browning invented the slide and patented all three principle variations, with the recoil spring on top of, under, and surrounding the barrel. Of course, Beretta and others have had the recoil springs in the grips or at the rear of the pistol as in Browing's excellent "Woodsman" pistol.


 * As for your references to effectiveness and fame, I'll give you that the M1911 is more well known because of its use by police, the Military, and in popular media, however the M1911 was nothing special for its time. It was a redesign of the M1905 itself a scaled model of earlier Browning designs. BTW, the fictional James Bond uses the Walther PPK, itself an improvement of Browning's FN Model 1910. The fictional John McLane used a Beretta 92FS, a design far removed from Browning, though still incorporating many hallmarks such as the double-column magazine Browning patented for the Browning Hi-Power pistol. The character "Hans" from the same movie used an HK P7M8, a pistol even further removed from John Browning's designs. Though I appreciate your enthusiasm, it seems to be coming from popular culture rather from a historical point of view. The M1911 was important, yes, and it has its own article. This article is about John Browning and featured a balanced look at his life's work including the M1911. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 21:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Why do you consider the PPK an improvement on the 1910? Is it just because of the mag release button and a preference for double action triggers, or am I missing some other factors? In my experience (own a 1910, have handled a PPK), they seem like functionally identical guns with two different triggers and different mag releases. Elmo iscariot (talk) 17:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Fanboy rhetoric won't help you. I get it, you think the 1910 is better. If you'd like to discuss which is better, go to a gun shop or a gun forum. This page is reserved for improvements on the article. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 17:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * My goodness. I seem to have badly misjudged you. Good day, then. Elmo iscariot (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

First, James bond's gun is a real firearm. second, i wasn't saying that browning made bond's gun, I was saying that he made the slide for semi auto pistols. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krasilschic (talk • contribs) 19:52, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not really following your point. You seem to be a fan of Browning. Great! Learn more about the breadth of his accomplishments. His single-greatest contribution to warfare was the invention of the M2 Heavy Machinegun, a firearm that has been produced for almost 90 years and is still in front-line service. The FN 1910 was perhaps the single most important single weapon of the 20th century. A Singluar example of this pistol started WWI and set the stage for WWII. The Browning-designed BAR was the premier Squad Automatic Rifle for 40 years and was arguably the backbone of most of the US Infantry Doctrine of the time. For perhaps 70 years, all of the war fighting and war winning was done by people with a 1911 dutifully strapped to their side. VERY RARELY did the 1911 fire a shot in anger. It was a last-ditch insurance policy and a defensive weapon. You POV is noted but your sense of balance is far too narrow for an autobiographical article. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 00:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "VERY RARELY did the 1911 fire a shot in anger."
 * Righto, chap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.150.129.11 (talk) 09:48, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Eugenics
The article hasn't anything about the support of this man to eugenics.Agre22 (talk) 01:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)agre22


 * I find that statement to be highly dubious. Unless you can find a reliable citation for it, it shouldn't be in the article.--LWF (talk) 02:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)