Talk:John Buckner (burgess)

Sourcing problems
I am in a local history library, trying to correct two related articles, to which I added infoboxes and wikilinks as well as expanded significantly with local history sources 2 days ago from this same library, before my laptop blackscreened again and I received odd no-message calls, which I presume from my cyberbullies. I tried to correct some of the obvious syntax errors yesterday afternoon, despite the closure of this the nearest local history library (and reduced hours of the next nearest). However, signing into wikipedia soon produced another blackscreen and no message telephone calls, so I only corrected the other article's syntax, and did not start an article about John Buckner Jr, nor about the other brothers in order to disambiguate the relations. Today, I noticed that TARCHON, who started this article about a year ago and on his talk page boasts about no longer editing because its too much trouble, reversed most of my edits earlier today on both articles, with considerable disparaging remarks about my lack of citations and by means which cannot be reversed. However, he added no citations to either article. The Richard Buckner article revision note mentioned B.D. Buckner, "Correcting John Buckner, “the Immigrant,” (1632–1695)", M. VA. Genealogy 60(1), p. 30, (2022) as "disproving" my edits. However, the local history librarian at this institution cannot find that article. Before my edits Wednesday, I realized that both the Lyon Gardiner Tyler 1915 encyclopedia article and the Debra Gentry article in the 2001 encyclopedia which I added as citations relied on William Armstrong Crozier's research from a hundred years ago, which has obvious issues (both to me and Ms. Gentry). I and they used it nonetheless as the best available source. Noticing the Buckner surname of the supposed new article's writer, and having previously encountered wikipedia edits which boldly claimed people who may never have existed served in the Virginia General Assembly, I request a better cite.Jweaver28 (talk) 21:03, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * JWeaver, you can "reverse" anything. There's no such thing as an edit that can't be reversed. The basic problem with the tertiary genealogical sources that you're using is that they're dependent on secondary genealogical sources that have substantial dependence on forgeries. That's the main reason I left them out of the article originally. I don't really understand why you think edits are bad because they happened in the "wee hours" either. I know there is a lot of stuff that _could_ be in this article, but there are literally three different genealogies published about this guy that contain very significant levels of out and out forgery, not to mention serious errors like this thing about Deborah Ferrers, and figuring out what is reliable requires quite a bit of original research, which obviously is not something that's supposed to happen in wikipedia articles. I really would recommend just sticking to actual historical material and avoiding the mess with the genealogy. It's just not verifiable. Tarchon (talk) 01:32, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Excerpt from B.D. Buckner, "Correcting John Buckner, “the Immigrant,” (1632–1695)", Magazine of Virginia Genealogy 60(1), p. 30, (2022):
 * One central problem is Crozier’s identification of a 1661 Canterbury, England license for a marriage between a John Buckner and a Debora Ferrers as that of John Buckner of Virginia. The allegation for the license has been transcribed as:[1]
 * “10 Jul 1661 John Buckner, of St Sepulchre's, Cit. & Salter of London, Bachr, abt 31, & Debora Ferrers, of West Wickham, Bucks, Spr, abt 19, with consent of her mother, now wife of Andrew Hunt, of the same; at West Wickham.”
 * To be fair, Crozier never completely commits himself to this identification, but it is repeated often enough in the book that most readers come off with the impression that it is essentially proven. This notion, which was suggested in the “Historical and Genealogical Notes” section of the William and Mary Quarterly as early as 1898,[2] has consequently come to be accepted by generations of genealogists. Indeed, the present author notes that Debora Ferrers is listed as the wife of John Buckner of Virginia in thousands of family trees in the Ancestry.com database as of this writing, and the claim has appeared in several more general publications such as the Encyclopedia of Virginia Biography.[3],[4]
 * The first objection to this identification arises from the observation that John Buckner arrived in Virginia considerably earlier than indicated by the first evidence known to Crozier et al., which was a 1667 headright patent. In fact, John Buckner was apparently present in Virginia as early as February of 1654/5, when he witnessed a mortgage by Abraham Moone of Lancaster Co., VA[5] (probably in the same area that became “Old” Rappahannock Co., then Essex Co., and eventually Caroline Co.). He also witnessed a contract for a boat repair in Maryland in 1659.[6] Possibly corroborating this early date is a 1662 headright patent issued to Robert Lee, son of Richard Lee. This patent lists eight transported individuals (though oddly only claiming seven):[7]
 * Jno Bucknell, Eliz. Williams, Valent: Smith, Abra: Smith, Jno. Falcner, Tho: Roulston, Robt Haniger, Tho: Clay.
 * The patent itself only permits a vague suspicion that “Jno. Bucknell” might be John Buckner, but a later 1669 patent issued to John Buckner and his frequent business partner Thomas Royston for 20 headrights begins with a strikingly similar set of names, albeit reading top to bottom instead of left to right: [8]
 * Jno Buckner, Eliz Williams, Valentene Smith, Abr Smith, Jno Falkner, Tho. Royston, Robt Haniger, Jno Clay.[9]
 * Clearly, this parallel arrangement of four identical names and four extremely similar names is no random accident—they must have derived from the same original source. It is unclear whether the seven headrights claimed by Lee properly belonged to him or to Buckner and Royston, but it is evident that Buckner and Royston had a much firmer notion of the spelling of their own names in their version of the list. It is also evident that John Buckner must have arrived in Virginia prior to the issuance of the 1662 headright patent, and indeed this could be the record of his first arrival in the colony. From this 1662 headright list, along with the two witnessed documents from 1655 and 1659, the presence of John Buckner in Virginia before the 1661 date of the Buckner-Ferrers marriage is fairly certain, so he could only have been Debora Ferrers’ husband if he had returned to England to marry.
 * More objections can be raised from the observation that this John Buckner in the marriage license was a member of the Worshipful Company of Salters in London, one of the city’s most prominent guilds. A 1670 will of John Buckner, Salter of London, is preserved in the records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury.[10] This will indicates that the testator John Buckner was born in Soulbury, Bucks., England and had two then-living issue, a son John and a daughter Elizabeth Browne. It also refers to a deceased daughter Debora, wife of Henry Michell, by whom John Buckner then had three grandchildren living. He also named a sister Elizabeth Stephens, a detail which allows certain identification of this John Buckner as the son of Lawrence Buckner of Soulbury, Bucks., who left a fairly detailed 1635 will preserved at the Centre for Buckinghamshire Studies.[11] John Buckner, the 1670 testator, was obviously not himself the John Buckner who married at the age of about 31 years in 1661, but we can reasonably conclude that his son John named in the will was, probably having received membership in the Company of Salters (in 1656[12]) by patrimony.
 * The burial of “John Buckner sen” is also recorded in the parish register of St. Sepulchre on 2 Dec 1670, and not quite a month earlier, on 3 Nov 1670, Ann Buckner, wife of John Buckner, had been buried in the same parish.
 * A further detail to be gleaned from the will of the elder John Buckner is that his son John inherited a messuage in “Royden” in Suffolk, probably Reydon. A probable record of John Buckner Jr. is a 1672 hearth tax list entry of a “Mr. Buckner” residing in that parish.[13] Finally, we find in 1678 a record of the administration of the estate of Mr. John Buckner in “Raydon,”[14] which is the last metaphorical nail in the coffin of the idea that this could be John Buckner of Virginia. It appears that Debora Ferrers’ husband died in England over two decades before the death of John Buckner of Virginia in 1695. Further corroboration of this appears in a lawsuit by John and Deborah Buckner’s “only son” John Buckner filed in 1695, which identifies his parents by name.[15] This third John Buckner, along with his wife Jane, appealed a removal warrant[16] from Reydon to St. Nicholas Parish in Ipswich in the same period, though the date is somewhat unclear.[17]
 * John Buckner Sr.’s will suggests that his son had persistent debt problems, which would plausibly have created the impoverished circumstances his son lived in. John Buckner Sr. was also identified as Presbyterian common councilman of London in 1670,[18] and he named the noted Presbyterian clergyman Thomas Gouge (1609–1681) as a friend in the will. It thus seems unlikely that this committed Presbyterian would have had an Anglican vestryman as a son. Indeed, the Anglicanism of John Buckner in Virginia may turn out to be a critical connection to his true ancestry.
 * Unfortunately, the Buckners of Virginia builds an extensive genealogy based on this now-clearly erroneous idea that John Buckner married Debora Ferrers.
 * [1] Sir George John Armytage, ed., Allegations for marriage licences issued by the vicar-general of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Publications of the Harleian Society 33, (London: Harleian Society, 1892), 10. “West Wickham” here is probably a clerical error for the similar-sounding West Wycombe.
 * [2] “Historical and Genealogical Notes,” William and Mary Quarterly 7 (1898), 58.
 * [3] Lyon Gardiner Tyler, Encyclopedia of Virginia Biography (New York: Lewis Historical Pub. Co., 1915), 198.
 * [4] Louise Pecquet du Bellet, Edward Jaquelin, and Martha Cary Jaquelin Some prominent Virginia families. (Lynchburg, Va: J.P. Bell Co., 1907), 35.
 * [5] Beverly Fleet, ed., Lancaster County, record book no. 2, 1654-1666, pages 1-394, in vol. 1 of Virginia Colonial Abstracts, (Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1961), 5.
 * [6] J. Hall Pleasants, ed., Proceedings of the County Court of Charles County, 1658-1666, Archives of Maryland 53 (Baltimore, MD: Maryland Historical Society, 1936), 156.
 * [7] Virginia Land Office Patents and Grants Original 5 (1662): 333.
 * [8] Virginia Land Office Patents and Grants 6 (1669): 240.
 * [9] The last 12 are: Edwd Hewes, Hen: Glover, Jno Demott, Ann Steed, Jno Colt, Pete Jnoson, Jno Willis, Edward —, Wm Crump, Hen: Nelson, Pte Burton, and Abr Harmon. This patent is noted twice in BoV, first on p. 22 and then again on p. 167, where it is mistakenly attributed to “Thomas Buckner” rather than John Buckner. This misreading seems to have been communicated to Crozier by William Carter Stubbs (see p. 154) and formed the basis for Stubbs’ theory that this non-existent Thomas Buckner (“of the Dragon”) was an immigrant brother of John.
 * [10] UK National Archives Catalog Ref. PROB 11/334/415 – this and most of the wills mentioned herein are transcribed in full on the author’s website at http://www.buckbd.com/genea/willpage.html
 * [11] Centre for Buckinghamshire Studies Catalog Ref. DAWf/31/18
 * [12] ‘
 * [13] Sydenham Henry Augustus Hervey, ed., Suffolk in 1674: being the hearth tax returns, Suffolk Green Books no. IX, vol. 13, (Woodbridge, Suffolk: George Booth, 1905), 235.
 * [14] M.E. Grimwade, comp., W.R. Serjeant, and R.K. Serjeant, eds., Records found Archdeaconry Court of Suffolk Probate Records at Ipswich 1444-1700 vol. I, British Record Society 90 (1979) (A6/29/25), 85.
 * [15] John Buckner of Roydon, Suff, gent & Jane his wife v. Clement Martin of Shelley, Suff; Isaac Wakenfield; and Henry Creamer (1695), English Chancery Decrees, UK National Archives C78/958, no. 1
 * [16] This was a type of legal action commonly used to expel an indigent person from the poor rolls of the local parish.
 * [17] Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch Catalog Ref. FB94/G4/1
 * [18] Gary S. De Krey, London and the Restoration, 1659–1683, Cambridge Studies in Early Modern British History, (Cambridge University Press, 2005), 412. Tarchon (talk) 01:46, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for your explanation. I am heading for the library with the 2 best genealogist/librarians, to check on availability of that genealogy periodical. Unfortunately, parking is terrible near the Library of Congress and its genealogists have been absorbed into the reference staff in any event. Another couple of excellent northern Virginia genealogists retired during covid. FYI, I mentioned the wee hours because some of my cyberbullies are not based in the U.S. The one who keeps wanting me to take pictures of Virginia sites and who claims to be in Kansas I believe is actually in Russia. Some others may be in Indonesia, and still others homegrown, unfortunately.Jweaver28 (talk) 17:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)