Talk:John Butler (musician)

Expectant
His album Grand National was expected in March 2007. Since that has come and gone, anybody want to update this? Mornington 09:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Why does John R. Butler redirect here? ...and why isn't there a John R. Butler page? (I.e. this guy) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.29.142 (talk) 03:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Probably because only 5 people listen to him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.132.137 (talk) 17:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

God Will Fuck You Up
Is this the Butler that wrote this song?

Fan POV Tag
Thanks to all the editors who have contributed to the development of this article. No doubt many of you are fans of JB (and I am too) but Wiki is an encyclopedia and its content must adhere to that standard. I'm sure with some tweaking and reorganization we can create a better article on this notable modern musician. The reason I place the Fan POV tag on the article is that it reads more like a promo piece than a Biography in an encyclopedia. For example the lead paragraph is supposed to summarize the subjects life and the entire article and instead it reads like concert flyer: I'm sure we can work together to improve the article. Thanks for your help!-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 13:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * John Butler (born 1 April 1975) is an Australian musician. (this is OK)
 * He is the frontman of the John Butler Trio, a band that has achieved two platinum records in Australia with Three (2001) and Living 2001-2002 (2003). Their album Sunrise Over Sea reached number one on 15 March 2004 and shipped gold in its first week of release. (This is not)

Main text: returned information re: grandfather's name, his death, his handing on of a dobro guitar. This event is pivotal to JB's early life and reason for his performing as described by Denton and SBS references.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, good. I looked at that sentence today and it looks to be concise and relevant to the biography. Thanks for your input.-- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 15:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Remove POV Tag
I have expanded the lead into a neutral summary of the article. I have also copy edited the entire article and reorganized some material ie. Award section at the end per WP:MOS. etc. Also I have removed some minor POV and off topic text and have condensed a few sentences so that the text is more encyclopedic. There is still more work to be done to bring it to a higher level but enough has been accomplished to remove the Fan POV tag. Thanks to others for their contributions and assistance.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 16:36, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Major editing done
I've finished my major edits of the article and believe it is now up to B-class. Further work may be needed if anyone is prepared to take it to Good Article class.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:37, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Recent copy editing
Keithbob, whilst I agree with some of your recent copy editing there are changes that I dispute and would like clarified:
 * 1) According to Lead, an article's introduction should summarise information which appears later in the article. To me this means if information is not in the main text then it can't be summarised into the Lead. Yes, this sometimes results in sentences repeated word-for-word both in the Lead and in the main text.
 * 2) However, the Lead does repeat itself awkwardly: has recorded five studio albums including three albums which have I'd prefer has recorded five studio albums including three which have since the second use of 'albums' is redundant.
 * 3) reached the number one spot on the Australian music charts > reached number one on the Australian charts Reduces wordiness.
 * 4) See MoS biographies#Names. Where in the main text are Butler's full names? These were verified by note [A]. The second sentence in the main text has his father's last name as Wiltshire-Butler: currently there's no indication why the difference between father and son? The problem continues with Butler being named for his paternal grandfather: what happened to the Wiltshire part?
 * 5) January of 1986 > January 1986. See WP:DATESNO.
 * 6) References [4] and [5] support the claim that he went to schools in Pinjarra (starting at a primary school and followed by a high school) but neither gives the actual names of either school, that's why the tabs were placed mid-sentence. By placing the tabs at the end of the sentence you indicate that this name is verified when its not.
 * 7) 1930's > 1930s. See WP:DECADE.
 * 8) Later Stevens became his manager and business partner. Time line is that Stevens became Butler's talent manager almost immediately after installing him at Mojos (before end of 1998) but they became business partners (i.e. co-owners of Jarrah Records) in July 2002. So Stevens became his manager and later his business partner. does better.
 * 9) Butler partnered with his manager and members of the The Waifs to create Jarrah Records in July 2002. This sentence scans awkwardly and leaves out some relevant information: Who are The Waifs and why is Butler forming a record label with them? Try In July 2002, Jarrah Records was created by Butler, members of fellow Western Australian act The Waifs and their common manager, Stevens.
 * 10) for some time was placed sounds vague. What's wrong with 'peaked' or 'reached'?
 * 11) Deletion of unbreakable spaces. e.g. I use top 30 and not top 30 (see wikicode). When text is wrapped, I believe these two should be kept together.
 * 12) If you prefer 'number one' (as seen in the Lead) then all instances of 'No. 1' should be 'number-one' (note hyphen added). Other charting values would have to be changed for consistency.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 13:35, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Its now over a week since I made these comments, so I'll start making the changes as indicated. Please don't change them back again without discussion.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:44, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for this very detailed post and collaborative spirit. Sorry I was off Wiki for several days taking care of real life. I'll respond now point by point:
 * 1) This is one point we may need to discuss a little. From my perspective having a summmary in the lead doesn't mean repeating almost word for word, text that is in the article. A summary is a brief wording of subjects that are detailed in the body of the article. However, I'll look at the lead after you've made your adjustments and if I have any specific issues regarding redundant text, I'll bring them here to the talk page and we can discuss. I'm sure we can work together on this :-)
 * 2) That change regarding albums sounds fine
 * 3) Number one album change also a good one
 * 4) Whatever the names are its good to have them in both places, Lead and Early Life
 * 5) Generally refs are not placed mid sentence, though there are exceptions, it maybe better to put a [Citation Needed] mid sentence instead.
 * I prefer to have refs at end of sentence(s) too. I decided to reword this one and use a generic phrase: "he attended the local primary and secondary schools." This is supported by the references and so does not require the citation needed plate. If we find a good ref for the precise name of the school(s) we can re-edit.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * 6) Good point on the date format. What I try to avoid is sentences that say "on June 12, 1986 Butler met his future wife etc." as if this is some historic event. In most cases saying an event occurred in a particular year or month/year is more than sufficient.
 * 7)Change about Stevens becoming business partner is also fine.
 * 8) Not sure I agree --do we have to explain who the Waifs are since there is a wiki link for them? we could say "the band called the Waifs" or something simple, keeping in mind this article is not about the Waifs, Stevens or Jarrad records, its an accounting of a single person's life.
 * Many (most?) casual readers don't go to wiki links (sad but true). The current "fellow Western Australian act" is some three words or so longer. It quickly establishes the closeness of the relationship between Butler, The Waifs and Stevens, and the ownership of Jarrah Records. The whole inter-relationship is important to Butler's life. I don't believe this is excessive detail.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks again for your willingness to communicate and collaborate. I look forward to working together to make this article the best it can be!-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 9) the word 'reached' or 'peaked' is fine as it indicates the temporal nature of the placement on the chart. We want to avoid fan POV phrases like "the number one hit song, Ocean..." etc. but it a song reached number or peaked at number, that's fine.
 * 10) I am not familiar with these codes, my apologies if my edits to them created a need for repairs.

-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 16:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

This article is better. Thanks.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have changed the section formerly named "Charities and causes" to "Political activism", as this is more accurate, and have made it an actual section, as this continues to be a primary area of Butler's life.--Soulparadox (talk) 15:13, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

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