Talk:John C. H. Grabill

Serious issues with the accuracy
Strangely until now no one seemed to have noticed that there are serious issues with the accuracy of this biography. The only documented hint about John C. H. Grabill's birth year and birth place is in the 1885 state census of Colorado - giving his age as 33, meaning he would have been born in 1852. His birth place is stated as "O.", presumably referring to Ohio and his father's birth place stated as "Va." that would indicate Virginia. The occupation is given as "assayer". Now the article here gives his birth date as the 5th November 1866 - that would make him a mere 15 years old if indeed he was a miner in Colorado in 1881 and would have made him 17 years old if he pursued the occupation of assayer in 1883. That does not seem to be right. The 1885 census would have been taken while he was alive and being interviewed by the census taker for the details, thus some credence could be given to its accuracy. If he was born in Ohio in about 1852 he certainly would not be the same person born in Rockford Township, Illinois in 1866. Where does this later birth date really come from ? Was it shown on the death certificate ? If so, who was the informant thereon, a relative, neighbor, friend or a boarding house owner ? That the death certificate indicated that he was the divorced husband of Stella Adkins seems to indicate that whoever provided these details must have known something about the deceased. Where was Grabill buried ? I have a feeling that this might not be the same person. J. H.C. Grabill seemingly took great pains to erase himself from the public, for to-date (June 2017) he cannot be positively identified in any public document after the 1890's. I did find that Grabill's divorced wife Margaret "Maggie" Gillespie must have returned to Colorado as she is documented in Denver from the 1890's forward where she was involved in public service (schools, kindergarten etc.). There is a Margaret "Mary" Gillespie Grabill buried at Crown Hill Cemetery (Block 26, Lot 160, Grave 4) in Wheat Ridge CO - born 1860, died 1917 (see https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=28462235) that seems to be the right person. Oddly, there was at one time a Ralph Grabill living in Denver in the early 1900's, born in 1892 and his birth place stated as Sturgis SD. A coincidence ? Perhaps, and also perhaps not. Lots of people have tried to pin down John C. H. Grabill for many years with marginal, if any at all, success. Also, as far as I am aware of, Grabill always billed himself as "J. C. H. Grabill" - never his full given name. How and where is it documented that his first name really was "John" ? I would be very interested to assist to get to the bottom of this, particularly that there is great interest and John C. H. Grabill's photographic legacy representing a great value, if not a national treasure for the United States, documenting an important period in American History. In this format it is difficult to exchange actual copies of historical documents, thus I am available for direct contact - englisberg [ at ] gmail [ dot ] com. 13th June 2017. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Von Bern (talk • contribs) 01:26, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Where did the birth date come from? you ask. Well you could read the article and see that it was on his death certificate. Yes, it seems strange that he would have been mining in Colorado at age 15. You say that you would be happy to assist with this, do it. Also forget British English. This was started as an American English article and under WP:ENGVAR must remain so. If you search newspapers in SoDak you will see that there were other Grabills living there. Perhaps you could locate Ralph Grabill's birth certificate and see if he was the son of John and Maggie. Some SoDak census records for this period were destroyed in a fire, possibly making this difficult. The purpose of the talk pages is to improve the article. So, improve it by doing the research and include it here. Senor Cuete (talk) 01:43, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The Sturgis Record is not online. Go to Sturgis and read it. This would be a big help. Senor Cuete (talk) 14:56, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Señor Cuete - it would perhaps help if you could share the actual death certificate copy, perhaps upload it onto Wiki Common? This would be a start. Does it show where he was interred ? A check with the cemetery records could possibly reveal a surviving relative or friend and take it from there. I don't understand your remark about British English - it came with the biography box format that I inserted, I do not see that it made any difference in the article. I am happy to help or assist in any way possible and by no means there is an intention to discredit your contribution. It is the first time that new details about this elusive man has come to light and that is thanks to the contributor of the article.


 * The contributor who did all of the research and created the article was me. I would welcome constructive criticism, i.e. doing more research and adding it to the article citing reliable sources. Senor Cuete (talk) 22:22, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Nice article, but ...
I really like this article. It should have more photos in it. I should be able to take care of that.

But there is no Rockford County, Illinois - likely it refers to Rockford, Illinois on the Rock River in Winnebago County, Illinois. Similarly there is no Limestone County, Illinois, but since he died in Peoria, Illinois according to the last (unreferenced) paragraph, which is right next to Limestone Township, Peoria County, Illinois, I'd bet he died in that township.

I'll look for sources for this, but I might even have to just take out the 2 obvious mistakes. Smallbones( smalltalk ) 03:02, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * This is copied directly from his official Illinois death certificate as cited in the article. Please correct, rather than removing it. There is an article on wikimedia with many of his photographs, so linking to that might make more sense than putting them in the article. This is a new article and I have found more to add to it in newspapers but have not added it yet. Senor Cuete (talk) 01:06, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Grabill in Chicago?
The papers in South Dakota say that Grabill was moving to Chicago but surprisingly I can't find anything about him in the papers there except for the suit against Buffalo Bill. It's possible that he was broke after his bankruptcy in Dakota and that the gallery in Chicago never actually happened. Also It's possible that someone acquired the glass-plate negatives at auction in Dakota. I'll try to find a reference that I once looked at that said that he helped photograph the Kwakiutl Indians at the Chicago Exposition. This raises the extremely remote possibility that the negatives might still exist in SoDak. More research will be coming... Senor Cuete (talk) 18:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

The original sepia-tone print from the LOC is preferable to a later copy.
I replaced a later copy ot "THE COW BOY" with the original sepia-tone print from the Library of Congress. I think it's better to go with the original work of Grabill, rather than a later cropped black and white copy. A print identical to this is in the Newberry library in Chicago in the Elmo Scott Watson collection. Senor Cuete (talk) 15:28, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Recently an editor changed it to other more modern copies. I agree that the original one from the Library of Congress is the preferred one. It's more encyclopedic to use the original. Anne N. Cephaly (talk) 18:49, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Comments
Von Bern, you should edit with this one user identity rather than as Daniel Guggisberg. If you use both identities you could be accused of using a sock puppet. Your comment that Grabill's personal life was tumultuous is right but it might be challenged as original research. Family recollections by Betty Wood may not meet Wikipedia's guidelines for accessibility. Can you provide a link? A citation to Newton Grabill's service in the war would be helpful. The sentence about Grabill's quest for anonymity is probably correct but is your opinion, possibly original research. A link or citation about mercury in photography would be helpful. Also he had the assay office, placer mines and mills that processed gold in Buena Vista Colorado. Some reference to how mercury was used in this would be great.

Congratulations on excellent scholarship. Your research has revealed the story of what happened to this once enigmatic figure, explaining many of the things that have vexed scholars for so long. Senor Cuete (talk) 15:15, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The article about Grabill being sent to the insane asylum mentions him frequenting "bucket-shops". My dictionary defines this as:

bucket shop |ˈbəkət ˌSHäp| noun informal, derogatory an unauthorized office for speculating in stocks or currency using the funds of unwitting investors. Senor Cuete (talk) 15:46, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The description of the symptoms of mercury poisoning don't describe anything like those in the newspaper article about Grabill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning#Signs_and_symptoms. The description of tertiary syphilis does, so this should stay in the article. Senor Cuete (talk) 15:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Name
Is it known what the C. H. stands for? And as previously asked by user Van Bern, is it even certain that his first name was "John"? Billy7 (talk) 06:39, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * yes Anne N. Cephaly (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)