Talk:John Coltrane/Archive 1

Johnny?
The musical timeline article referred to Coltrane (in its 1959 item) as Johnny Coltrane. I've never heard this, and changed it. But was this also used - maybe at the time of the recording referred to, or something? I haven't found much evidence for it if so, but maybe someone knows otherwise?? If this was a real usage maybe it needs making explicit in the article. Nevilley 18:52 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)
 * It's a new one to me. I suppose he might be called Johnny on ocassion, just as Mozart might have been called "Wolfie Boy", but he certainly didn't release any records under that name, and he doesn't seem to have been called it with any regularity. I could be wrong, of course. --Camembert
 * I think I've seen Johnnie before, I think, somewhere. Tokerboy
 * It seems very possible to me that whoever wrote that could very well have been quoting some sort of publication from the 50s in which he was frequently called Johnny, Johnnie, or his last name was spelled: Coltrain, Coaltrane, etc.. By the 60s I think it stopped happening as much, but in the late 50s he was not as respected or well known. Ngoah89 16:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Hectoring
Quote: "Although the music of this period can sometimes sound hectoring and bad-tempered, and not all of it is of even quality" - Is it right to discuss quality or taste in such article?
 * Although I don't think the quoted sentence is appropriate, I do think it's appropriate to address the issue of taste with respect to Coltrane's music. His later work became very avant-garde. A Love Supreme, for example, is outside many people's musical "comfort zone." Yet it is regarded as a masterpiece by nearly every jazz musician, and it has become one of the best-selling albums in jazz history. I think it's worth mentioning how Coltrane's later work contrasts with popular musical taste, and remains influential even to jazz musicians whose own music is very straight-ahead. Cribcage 05:35, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Really? I thought A Love Supreme was fairly listenable even by people who aren't Jazz musicians or lovers. Now, I know people who have trouble with Ascension...
 * Well, I love a wide spectrum of jazz -- I can comprehend Bitches Brew while riding the Coney Island rollercoaster -- but A Love Supreme has always left me completely cold. Bunch of atonal honking saxes...  -- GWO 14:37, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

While I can concede to much of Coltrane's later music of sounding and even being atonal, much of A Love Supreme sound to me very melodic, using interesting inversions of the pentatonic scale in many places 207.157.121.50 A major rewrite/edit of this article is coming shortly, mostly to flesh out certain currently-brief sections, reorganize for content flow, and do some fact correction (Trane never converted to Islam, etc.). If anyone has anything specific about him they'd like me to address, lemme know. Drasil 22:10, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC) A Love Supreme is certainly considered one of the true masterpieces of jazz, alongside, Brilliant Corners (Monk), Kind of Blue (Davis), The Shape of Jazz to Come (Coleman). I'm not a jazz fan by origin but discovered it just through, well musical exploration. I'd agree with the person who said Ascension was a very atonal and "unlistenable". Well, it is, Coltrane is redefining tonality and atonality as he had been listening to lots of twelve-tone composers at the time. I'd say A Love Supreme is slightly easier on the ear. Also, a lot of people but this sort of cosmic atonality down to his LSD use. I'd say it was a combination of both. Certainly a lot of his music is still highly original today and free jazz died out somewhat, due to the jazz-rock movement. I feel it could have been developed further by an alive Coltrane. Knucmo2 23:34, 11th Oct 2004 (UTC) The bit about Gilmore's influence on Coltrane should be moved from the "free jazz" section -- every reference I've read mentions this in context with Coltrane's work in 1961, not in 1965-66. Also, the discussion of "My Favorite Things" doesn't belong in the "free jazz" section either.
 * "and free jazz died out somewhat, due to the jazz-rock movement. I feel it could have been developed further by an alive Coltrane. Knucmo2 23:34, 11th Oct 2004 (UTC)"
 * Oh please! Apart from the fact that the jazz-rock movement (i.e. fusion) had NOTHING to do with the free-jazz (The New Thing was developing in another part of the world, for starts; it was mainly a European thing from the start, mainly Scandinavia and Holland), the latter is still very much alive today, with groups such as the Instant Composers Pool (ICP) still receiving major attention. 82.176.196.155 21:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

New thing at newport
I've deleted the sentence about Coltrane and Shepp working together on New thing at Newport. They didn't -- there are separate tracks by Coltrane and Shepp on the album, no "working together". Furthermore, the information was in the wrong place, after the paragraph about Coltrane's death. --Ferdinand Pienaar 14:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Islamic convert
If he is a muslim convert to which is categorized into, why is it not mentioned anywhere in the article? Additionally, the article states he resorted to Hindu medicine at his death, but if he was a convert to Islam, why not a muslim healer? Can someone please address these issues? --preceding unsigned comment by VarunRajendran
 * Thanks for catching that. Coltrane studied many things on his own time, including philosophy and religion.  He is famous for saying, "I believe in all religions." (1965).  There is no evidence he ever converted to Islam, however he was interested in it, as well as many other types of belief systems.  Coltrane was immersed in the Philadelphia jazz scene, many of whose members were Muslims.  In 1955, Coltrane married Naima (Juanita Austin), a Muslim woman.  By 1957, Coltrane appeared to kick his heroin and alcohol addictions and he experienced a "spiritual awakening" (his words).  I suppose it's possible that some people might think he was a "muslim convert" as a result of these events, (and it could be argued that his wife's religious beliefs helped him get sober) but there doesn't appear to be any evidence that Coltrane was a convert.  The end result is that I've placed a query on the talk page of FayssalF (the user who added the cat) asking for a cite. --Viriditas 04:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks guys for the notice and the concern. My edit was based on 2 main sources: In the same time, there are some suggestions on the net about his beliefs. Again, after verifying, nothing is explicitly declaring his conversion: I would like to remove reference 17 which is in this subsection of the article - this has nothing to do with Coltrane, only this professor's "agenda." The chants in "Love Supreme" never say this, nor has ANY critic, over 40 years of scrutiny, ever put this in print. It's not pertinent to an article on Coltrane, although by all means if there is a Wiki on Bayoumi, put it there. To me, and to many others, this will seem as disinformation and putting a spin on Coltrane and this album that is patently false. What if I made a claim Coltrane was influenced by seances and some hack newspaper picked it up and printed it - could it then be cited in this article on him? This reference needs to go.HammerFilmFan (talk) 08:26, 18 August 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan Sorry for the incovenience. I have removed that now from List of Muslims in arts and literature as well. Cheers -- Svest 19:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
 * List of Muslims in arts and literature
 * Coltrane at Adherents.com. However, after checking now the content of the reference given by Adherents.com, I found nothing suggesting that he converted to Islam.
 * "...People like Diouf, Kubik and Moustafa Bayoumi, an associate professor of English at Brooklyn College, City University of New York, who has researched Islam's connection to American music, are trying to correct the public record. Bayoumi wrote a paper two years ago that examined African Muslim history in the United States in which he argues that John Coltrane's best-known album, "A Love Supreme," features Coltrane saying, "Allah Supreme" in addition to the many refrains of "A Love Supreme."" sfgate.com
 * "...marqué par une véritable "crise mystique" dès 1957, John Coltrane s'est en effet toujours intéressé à la religion, ou plutôt à toutes les religions (l'hindouisme, l'islam via sa première épouse Naima, comme grâce à Alice Mcleod, sa seconde compagne, les cultes africains...) et croit en un Dieu unique, Amour Suprême a qui il dédie cet hymne fluide, d'une incroyable sérénité." alwaysontherun.net, in French
 * "...Spiritual elements are ever present in jazz. Religious ideas were prominent from the outset. Later, musicians of the bop, post bebop and hard bop eras reverted to or took Muslim names. The lyrics of jazz abound in religious influence." Allaboutjazz.com
 * "...Coltrane's musical career prior to 1957 is well-documented in numerous biographies, especially Coltrane by C. O. Simpkins and Bill Cole's John Coltrane. These resources detail Coltrane's early career, a discussion of which is superfluous in this context. However, a critical turning point occurred in 1957 when Coltrane, a well-respected but as-yet unheralded 30-year-old saxophonist underwent a profound personal religious transformation inspired by his introduction to the beliefs and discipline of Islam by his first wife, Naima (Budds 136). This experience led Coltrane into a temporary retirement during which he overcame his addictions to alcohol and heroin and practiced fervently." room34.com
 * "...Prior to 1957 Coltrane was also influenced by Islam, both during his years in Philadelphia and also through his wife Naima. Bill Cole mentions that Cousin Mary's first husband Charles Greenlee was also a devout disciple. Although Coltrane was influenced, he never converted." allaboutjazz.com
 * I think the issue is solved now. I've just added a new section called 'Coltrane and religious beliefs to make thing very clear and add depth to the article. Please review. Cheers -- Svest 02:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™

Problems with this article
If I don't get around to editing them, then here they are as I see them
 * Giant Steps only mentioned in passing, no mention of its innovation, Coltrane's stunning solos, the complex harmony, the "Coltrane changes" that would be come familiar in years to come. Basically, Giant Steps was the last watershed, and arguably the curtain call of the complexity of bebop (of course bebop would influence the rest of jazz).
 * All of his formative years with and without Miles are grouped under a heading that is only relevant for part of it.--Knucmo2 22:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Changed heading to "Miles, Monk and early record dates as leader", which is too cumbersome, though "Record dates as leader 1957-61" is a section which cannot yet be created as the article stands. Philip Cross 19:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * My Favorite Things is not the first album in Coltrane's new quartet. Isn't it Giant Steps?
 * The order of his instruments that he plays should order them by which ones he played the most, correct? I'll rearrange it and if it gets kicked back let me know why. Robert 00:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Family Life
It would be nice for casual readers to see how many times Coltrane was married (especially since "Naima" is such a well-known composition of his) and how many children he had. Also where he lived (Long Island, towards the end, right?). --Neil H. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.86.248.1 (talk) 20:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Verification request
Can someone verify this and make the changes if needed? I'm rather new to Wikipedia, and don't quite understand how it all works yet. Celisbored 03:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Allmusic's biography on Coltrane reads that it was Coltrane's Uncle, not his Aunt that died in 1939.
 * In Michael Segell's book "The Devil's Horn," he writes of how Coltrane first met Charlie Parker while he was playing at the Downbeat in Philadelphia, and played on stage with him at a benefit concert.
 * Coltrane's aunt, Effie Blair, died in 1938, followed by his grandfather. In 1939, his father and grandmother died.  As for Bird, I'm not sure, but apparently Coltrane first met Bird on June 5, 1945.  The benefit did not occur until December 7, 1947.  &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 04:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, on a re-read, the book merely implies that the meeting was the reason that Coltrane gave up playing the alto saxophone. I'll look through some of the books I have to see if there's anything a little more clear. Celisbored 05:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Jerry Garcia?
I am unfamiliar with Coltrane's influence on Garcia. My understanding is that it was Phil Lesh, bassist for the Grateful Dead, who first played "A Love Supreme" for the rest of the band, and was the one who was most deeply impacted by the complexity and spirituality of Coltrane's playing. ---Charles 02:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Beautifully written page
Kudos to all who contributed to this page. It was a pure joy to read. I found one tiny error in grammar and corrected it as I didn't want to leave a flaw on the page. Thanks again to you all! Does anyone know if Coltrane was the inspiration for Spike Lee's "Mo' Better Blues"? Solidpoint 10:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The Album Transition
Is there any reason why this keeps getting deleted from the selected discography? I have added it three times now and it's been deleted twice. I know the album exists. I have it. Could whoevers deleting it please leave it in place now or at least provide a reason why they object to it. SmokeyTheFatCat 11:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It definitely exists, and it's definitely good, but there's way too much in the "selected" discography already, and, since Transition is not listed in the Penguin Guide, I made the judgment that it's probably not significant enough to warrant being "selected". - Maggie --70.48.205.77 17:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It is worth noting, however, that the Penguin guide frequently omits items they they (sometimes erroneously) think are currently out of print. So using that as a guide for inclusion is not necessarily the way to go in all instances.

Legacy
"Some of Coltrane's other innovations would be incorporated into the fusion movement, but with diminishing returns of spiritual fervency and earnestness." Sounds like subjective personal point of view to me, not unbiased, objective factual observation. I don't see any reason to link the following passage on rock guitarists inspired by Coltrane with this subjective stance (it colors their work as inherently inferior and lacking its own "spiritual fervency"). New paragraph needed, and inserted. Also added a reference for Allan Holdsworth. Allan has cited Coltrane many times as an inspiration and critics continue to draw parallels between Allan's style and Coltrane's style. References for Allan Holdsworth citing Coltrane as an inspiration are replete across the internet vis-a-vis interviews, magazine articles, his Wiki entry here, as well as his own site (therealallanholdsworth.com). Chrism07924 10:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Selected Discography
One thing we should all realize is that there isn't enough space in this article for a complete Coltrane discography. There are literally hundreds of albums out under his name! So out-of-print obscurities like Om and cobbled-together posthumous quasi-compilations like Living Space and Kulu Se Mama probably don't belong. In order to keep this article down to a manageable size, we should probably limit ourselves to albums that are well-known and widely acclaimed (or notorious), with maybe one or two allowances to keep the periods balanced. But the fact that an album exists doesn't mean it's notable enough to warrant discussion in a selected discography, which is supposed to be a kind of "quick reference". Unless, of course, someone wants to create a separate article - John Coltrane discography. Hop to it, gentlemen! In fact, I'm going to go ahead and be presumptuous and link to it in the article. -Maggie --70.48.205.156 16:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC) I've pared down the discography a bit, but perhaps we should make it even shorter or eliminate it, as there is John Coltrane discography. The Miles Davis article omits the selected discography, and that might help make the article snappier. Or, just keep the really essential stuff, i.e. only list Kind of Blue, Blue Train, Giant Steps, My Favorite Things and Ascension. Then again, that might lead to a debate over what is essential.Editor437 05:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Could everyone who keeps adding to the discography section here please note the heading
 * Discography below lists albums conceived and approved by Coltrane as a leader during his lifetime. It does not include his many releases as a sideman, sessions assembled into albums by various record labels after Coltrane's contract expired, sessions with Coltrane as a sideman later reissued with his name featured more prominently, or posthumous compilations except for the one which he approved before his death. See main discography link above for full list.
 * Coltrane, as much as any recording artist of the 20th Century, suffered from a deluge of outtakes at recording sessions assembled into albums, some while he was still alive and now signed to a new record company. While containing fine music, both Coltrane Plays the Blues and Coltrane's Sound were recorded at the sessions for My Favorite Things, these tracks assembled into albums by Atlantic Records AFTER COLTRANE HAD LEFT THE LABEL AND WITHOUT HIS INPUT. They belong in the main article for his discography, but not here. This section serves a useful function in differentiating the releases Coltrane actually worked on and approved against the flood of releases made without his approval while alive or assembled after his death. If you go to the online catalogue index, you can tell by company catalogue number the sequence in which titles were released and/or renamed. Similarly, Live at the Half Note: One Down, One Up, Sun Ship and Cosmic Music are posthumous releases on Impulse Records, and do not belong on this list. Although the cover art of the current CD indicates a later vintage, Kulu Se Mama carrying an Impulse early 9100 series catalogue number was released in 1965 and belongs here. Please make no further edits to this list unless omissions are found in the Prestige catalogue - it covers all the Blue Note, Atlantic, and Impulse! releases authorized by Coltrane himself. Thanks.PJtP (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

New References to John Coltrane in popular culture
The list was getting rather lengthy, so rather rather eliminating every passing name-check in someone's lyrics, I started the new article to accommodate the full list. It is fine to leave the more significant references on the main article, and I have tried to retain references by more notable people (while preserving a diversity of sources - songs, rap, movies, and television.) Nposs 05:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

"widely considered by some" as masterpieces
(Under Legacy). I think this phrase needs work; not sure how to improve it, but it feels awkward. - 72.130.47.110 16:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC) I agree. I actually went to the talk page just to find out I'm not the first one to react to it. The mentioned albums do sound like noise to the "untrained ear", but I have the impressions that the people who do think they are masterpieces know what they are talking about. Maybe some citations to jazz connoiseurs could help? As the page is written so well I don't want to edit the page myself, but if anyone take this one up, here's a couple of review links that may help: [Ascension review at All About Jazz] [Interstellar Space review at All About Jazz]Pharaohmø 19:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC) When did John Coltrane move to Philadelphia? The article mentions him going to William Penn high school (in Philadelphia), then says he moved to Philadelphia in june 1943 this is confusing. 141.151.19.201 01:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC) FXO

"which can strike reformed alcoholics years after they quit"
(Under Death). I've never posted here, but here goes...What is the source of the statement: liver cancer can strike a "reformed" alcoholic years after they quit? (Due to the nature of alcoholism, "reformed" is a term discouraged in the "recovery" community. It tends to mislead individuals into believing they can be "cured"; a "think" that can lead to "relapse". "Recovering" is more accurate and preferred, as alcoholics can never be "cured", which makes "recovery" a life-long diligent process.) I've never heard that a recovering alcoholic can be "struck" with liver cancer years after quitting, although I have known cirrhosis to progress and increase. A reference re "liver cancer can strike years later" would help. Thank you. Great article! 71.112.66.222 06:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC) -- um we don't really need AA propaganda here. Of course alcoholism can be 'cured' the idea that it cannot is preposterous. Don't believe the hype! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.188.169 (talk) 15:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi - I'm a doctor specializing in liver disease - maybe I can help. Anyone with cirrhosis is at increased risk for developing liver cancer, whether or not the patient is still drinking. Of course, alcohol abuse does not always (or even usually) lead to cirrhosis, and cirrhosis can be caused by things other than alcohol, such as viral hepatitis. Hepatitis B and hepatitis C are very commonly contracted through injection drug use, and we know Coltrane used heroin in the 1950s. So, it is very possible that he had one or both of these viruses. As to whether Coltrane had cirrhosis, I am not familiar with any primary documentation (death certificate or autopsy report), but at least 75% of liver cancers occur in people with underlying cirrhosis. So, I don't think it is controversial to suggest that hepatitis may have played a role in Coltrane's death. This would in no way imply that he was still using drugs or drinking near the end of his life. I put in a brief edit to this effect a few weeks ago, and was disappointed that it was immediately reverted - David Bruce, M.D., Ochsner Clinic, New Orleans. p.s. - it is not "AA propaganda" to say that alcoholism is never really "cured", only put into remission. Alcoholics are indeed at lifelong risk of relapse, and it is extremely unusual for an alcoholic to be able to drink again in a controlled, social fashion. However, it is not unusual for a reformed alcoholic to be able to remain abstinent, if that is what you mean by "cure".68.11.78.90 (talk) 23:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Added Album Reference
Hi all, I added 'The Olatunji Concert' to the list of late last albums that state some as a 'cacophany of sound'. Please remove it as you feel free is you disagree with this being listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.166.83 (talk) 10:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Album Covers
It's a shame all the album covers are being removed from the album pages. It seems to me they are all fair use, but I don't have the time or the energy to make the argument for each and every darn one. Editor437 13:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't remove the ones that already have an argument! -MrFizyx 21:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In popular culture
Please prosify this list with references and add it back into the article if needed. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 01:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Many songs and film or television dramas reference Coltrane's name or style in passing. In addition to these:
 * The Byrds song "Eight Miles High" was said by Roger McGuinn as being influenced by Coltrane, especially the 12-string guitar solo.
 * The Gil Scott-Heron song "Lady Day and John Coltrane", from Pieces of a Man.
 * The Mountain Goats' song "My Favorite Things" contains references both titular (Coltrane's popular version of The Sound of Music original) and directly to the artist himself.
 * In an episode of TV-show ,The Simpsons, Lisa has a cat named Coltrane, to which she plays a piece of a John Coltrane composition before it proceeds to jump out of a window.
 * Vanessa Daou named one of her records "Dear John Coltrane",.
 * Philadelphia rapper Reef the Lost Cauze's song "Coltrane", from Feast Or Famine.
 * In Bill Clinton's book My Life, he writes "I knew I would never be John Coltrane", referring to his music career.
 * Punk legend Mike Watt traditionally begins every episode of his long-running internet radio/podcast, The Watt From Pedro Show, with a different John Coltrane song.
 * The 1990 Spike Lee film Mo' Better Blues makes reference to A Love Supreme as the greatest album of all time. Featured prominently in the mise en scene of the film is a large colour print of John Coltrane. Lee originally intended to title the film A Love Supreme, but Coltrane's widow objected due to the film's content.
 * The spoken word poetry group,The Last Poets, references Coltrane and his works several times in their songs.
 * Dear Lord was played in two The Cosby Show episodes, Calling Doctor Huxtable and That's Not What I Said.
 * Also is included in the movie Mr. Hollands Opus. The music teacher Mr. Holland names his son, Cole, after Coltrane.

First wife
Many sources give his first wife's name as Grubbs, not Grubb. Those that give Grubb mostly seem to be copied from Wikipedia. Does this need to be corrected?121.1.178.241 (talk) 09:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Early life and career (1926–1954)
Why does this section mostly discuss events that occured after 1955? Someone should make some changes here.Jazzzguy (talk) 21:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Checking a version from 20 April last year it appears a large amount of material has been cut from this article, either because of the lack of sources or flawed writing style. Philip Cross (talk) 21:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Photo
Is there any reason not to use a photo of Coltrane in this article? There's one at Image:John Coltrane Sax.jpg, which is used in the "Black People" and "Big Band" articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorsoup (talk • contribs) 14:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Reduction in discography
Why remove items from discography? (John User:Jwy talk) 20:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It makes sense to me, since there is already an article with a full discography. No need to deluge readers with too much information.  Some articles don't list an albums at all, just a link.  I think it makes sense to list key albums, but not too many.Editor437 (talk) 21:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, was only looking at the diff and didn't see the reference to the discography. Thanks for the pointer.  It now makes sense to me as well.  (John User:Jwy talk) 22:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Five Spot recordings
I removed the following on the grounds that it is probably an urban myth:"A number of 'live' recordings from the Five Spot, most of them deriving from tapes made by audience members (and therefore of relatively poor audio quality) have surfaced over the years, and some have been issued by record companies..." In Brilliant Corners: A Biodiscography (2001), Chris Sheridan refers to a rumour that Juanita Coltrane recorded nine hours of material during the 1957 residency (p79), but that the 1958 performances are "the only documentary evidence found so far" (p88). On p80, the Carneigie Hall recording which surfaced in 2005 is "rumoured to exist". That seems significant enough to place in Monk's article. Philip Cross (talk) 15:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Legacy (again)
I removed this paragraph from the legacy section, and bring it here for discussion:


 * Although some jazz listeners still consider the late Coltrane albums to contain little more than a cacophony, many of these late recordings—among them Ascension, Meditations, and the posthumous Interstellar Space—are widely considered masterpieces.

This paragraph has been altered a number of times of late, including by me, but the one thing that has not been done is finding sources for these claims. As it stands, it cannot remain in the article. Frankly, I do not think it will be missed. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 16:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Sainthood in lede
Recently, I have been having a slow-paced edit war with an anon. editor who keeps removing Coltrane's canonization from the lede. The discussion above relating to the saint category seems to prove that the church that canonized him and the canonization are both notable. I see no reason it cannot be mentioned in the lede and then elaborated upon in the section on his legacy. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 23:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This user has been at this for several years now. Protection might help. Viriditas (talk) 00:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I did not realize that! I will make a request for page protection. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  01:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, it should be mentioned in the lead section, and I don't understand why they keep removing it. Viriditas (talk) 01:38, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 01:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you were to try to best represent the argument against inclusion in the words of the editor against adding it to the lead, what would you say? In other words, why should it not be added to the lead? Viriditas (talk) 04:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:LEAD The purpose of the lead is to summarize the article. Since this is a part of his legacy, it should be mentioned in the lead, but since it is a small part of his life story, it should be mentioned briefly. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:31, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but it actually has nothing to do with his life. Bishop King, the Church, and "Sainthood" came much later, and it should appear at the end of the lead.  The body of the article should also go into more detail about the legacy of Coltrane and the Church, and mention the importance of "Uplift! The Music of John Coltrane", a three-hour radio program broadcast on KPOO from noon-4 every Tuesday, and part of the Church's "outreach".  The show is a San Francisco tradition, and familiar to most residents. Viriditas (talk) 08:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure That is much more sensible: the lead should follow the strcuture of the article; maybe something like four paragraphs about his early life, career as a sideman, initial ensembles, and musical experimentation before his death, with one paragraph discussing his legacy in terms of slaes, critical reception, and beatification. Anything added to the section on the church should be sourced, of course. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:53, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The one thing the anon. user has said that makes sense is that the lede should mention how many albums he has sold, and this should come before mentioning that he is a saint. That, and the other comments made above, make sense to me. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  14:43, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Can we start editing the lead section? I don't mind who does it, but I think we should get started. Viriditas (talk) 01:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Go for it be bold. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would be happy to do so, but I was hoping RepublicanJacobite would have the honor. Viriditas (talk) 01:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Other than day-to-day editing, vandal reversion, etc., I am currently working on a bigger project in user space and offline. I would not have time to devote to this for a month, at least.  You should go ahead and do it, if you like. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  02:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I am the one who removed the sainthood sentence from the lead. I have not been doing it for years, only the last few days. I am on a shared IP and prior edits from years past are not mine.  A brief look at the Coltrane page edit history reveals that multiple other users have independently felt the lead sentence was an inappropriate place for this.  First, his being made a saint was by a single 5000 member church, not by any mainstream religious organization that represents a substantial number of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or other entity.  Placing this item in the lead sentence only serves to raise the eyebrows, if not offend, many religious and secular readers.


 * Second, only 1% of the article (verified by word count) is about this beatification event. It makes no sense at at all, in terms of good writing, to place this in the lead.  It also obscures and belies that Coltrane had a fairly diverse set of religious experiences himself, ranging from Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.  There is far more on this topic in the body of article than the beatification.  In the first sentence why not list him as the leader or sideman of albums A Love Supreme, Blue Train, Giant Steps, Kind of Blue, Ascension and John Coltrane Live at the Village Vanguard, topics that far better represent the spirit of the article.


 * An aspiration to fairness and proportionality is one thing that demarcates Wikipedia from Conservapedia. If summarizing a mainstream religion, should the lead include a sentence on a small fringe sect?  There is so much to say about Coltrane in terms of his life history and impact that the beatification by a single church really amounts to trivia and ought be treated as such in an encyclopedia until there is far broader acceptance of the idea.  Wikipedia shouldn't be used a tool to promote this agenda; it ought report on what is generally accepted as his impact and backed with citations for that impact. 14-Oct-2010, 15:36  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.129.251.28 (talk) 19:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Short and sweet and in order of the points made: 1) I apologize, but your edits reminded me of another editor 2) As for raising eyebrows or offending someone as a result of calling Coltrane a saint, that kind of argument isn't supported. We write based on the sources, and follow the related biographical policies and guidelines 3) The sainthood occurred after his death, and while there is a connection to his spiritual life and music, it is part of his influence and legacy. 4) It is notable enough to mention in the lead, and more can be said about it in the body.  For some reason, this addition personally upsets you, and we just don't edit from that POV.  Use the policies and guidelines we have to argue against inclusion. Viriditas (talk) 20:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Addendum: Regarding the good suggestions by 162.129.251.28 for improving the lead, I would be happy to implement them or encourage others to do the same. Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * In response to some of the points, above: 2) I was not challenging that Coltrane's "beatification" cannot be sourced as legitimate.  I am simply challenging whether this is universally accepted enough to be in the lead.  There are roughly 2.1 billion Christians (2,100,000,000).  The AOC which considers him a saint is 5,000 members in size, amounting to 0.00024 percent of Christians.


 * 3) I agree with Viriditas that the sainthood represents his influence upon a seemingly well-intentioned church.  But extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, as Sagan suggested, or at least more widespread acceptance before this ought to be in the lead.  What if the AOC were 2,000 members in size, or 100 members in size, or just two persons? Where is the cutoff at which point one should be accepted as a saint, let alone the broad appreciation that merits mention in the few sentences summarizing an extraordinary life?


 * There are some preachers who have suggested that J.S. Bach should be made a saint. Should Wikipedia alter Bach's biography to denote this (with the rationale that it is part of his impact and legacy)?  Ditto for Beethoven.  Anyhow, these are my thoughts.  The current state of the article, in which this event is listed near the end of the lead is far more acceptable to me than being the second sentence.  162.129.251.28; 16-Oct-2010, 17:00

Semi-protection
Semi of this article seems heavy-handed given recent history. 220.100.22.19 (talk) 00:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * After having read the diffs and the section above, I also happen to agree with the arguments put forward by the IP, but this is not my point.
 * Their initial edits perhaps could come across as confrontational (they weren't IMO - just bold and a little insistent), but he then amply demostrated (1) not to be a vandal and (2) to be perfectly capable of civil discussion.
 * Suppressing individual POV of unregistered users in an unwelcoming way is not what semi-protection is for, even if short-term. This matter could have easily been resolved by bringing it in the Discussion page. Please unprotect. 220.100.22.19 (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Saint categories

 * Agree with Work Permit. I won't challenge the American saints inclusion. I do believe that a section should be placed in his article concerning it. --Manway (talk) 04:58, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Sourced The categories Category:American saints and Category:Anglican saints are justified by the fact that Coltrane is canonized by the African Orthodox Church, which is a part of Anglicanism. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * From what I can see, it is one church in San Francisco, the St. John Coltrane African Orthodox Church at, that has "canonized" Coltrane. Not the entire Anglican communion. I don't believe this qualifies him to be listed in Wikipedia as a saint. Third party opinion requested. --Manway (talk) 22:37, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is the same thing we deal it in the spanish wiki about the god status of Maradona, because he has been praised by 10000 members congregation as a God. So the solution was to treat this thing like a Trivia or extra data. Coltrane is, of course, not an Anglican Christian or American Saint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.234.134.170 (talk) 00:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Martin Luther King, Jr. was not an Anglican Christian, but he is considered an Anglican saint. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Even so, although I think it's acceptable, I wouldn't personally promote it. No contest, I guess is my feeling on it. However, I strongly believe that the infobox repeating the same information as the Muisician's infobox right above it (i.e. birthdate, origin, etc.) should be removed. Perhaps there's a way to add it to Coltrane's template at the bottom of the article rather than the way it is now, since it will be mentioned thus far it seems, in the external links section, and in the text?  It's overkill to have two infoboxes on the same page just as a matter of clarity. Can we not find a better way to display the information? Right now it looks like a brand-new user stumbled onto the page and erroneously put a box relating to some other article there at first glance. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 20:00, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The Anglican Communion has only ever cannonized one person, Charles I of England, as a saint. However, certain churches celebrate people as saints on their calenders (i.e. Martin Luther King, Jr. is a saint in the Episcopal Church USA, and he is categorized under Anglican saints. Coltrane was cannonized by an independant Anglican Church, the African Orthodox Church, as a saint, and is venerated as a saint. Therefore, he is an Anglican saint. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

What happens next?

 * If the opinion misses the point
 * Explain why you think they have missed the point and give the respondent a  reasonable time to justify or revise their opinion. The third party is  unlikely to be an expert on the topic and may unintentionally overlook a  detail.


 * If the opinion needs clarification
 * The reply should be in Plain English but may include references to Wikipedia  guidelines and policies.  If the response is confusing or you can not see which part of the  referenced material applies, then ask for a further clarification.  Please remember to remain civil.


 * If the opinion is not accepted
 * If the opinion given is firmly rejected, it probably is not worth while going over the  same ground again. Ask the non-accepting party to clarify their  viewpoint and summarize the current situation. Remember to stay cool and give reasonable time for  contributions from other editors who may act as local mediators.
 * Your next step is probably to consider one of the other dispute resolution options. The most common of these  at this stage are:
 * A request for comment, a good solution for agreeing a proposed exception to the guidance, or rejecting it.
 * Raising a Wikiquette alert, a fair way of  dealing with another editor who consistently shows what you think is  poor etiquette. Going through the third opinion process should demonstrate that  you have made reasonable attempts to resolve issues locally before  raising the alert.
 * Requesting advice on a Wikipedia noticeboard. For  example Biographies of living  persons/Noticeboard is  particularly helpful in those cases where the inclusion of problematic  biographical material for a living person is under debate.
 * Requesting advice on a Wikiproject talk page. Nearly all articles  fall within the jurisdiction of a Wikiproject, and the members of that  project can be helpful in further bringing about consensus on that page.


 * If the opinion worked and resolved the dispute
 * Don't forget to express thanks to everyone involved. Positive  feedback is encouraged as it shows that their contributions are  appreciated which will help to ensure the future of the third opinion  project. If the third opinion was especially sage or particularly  helpful, you might consider awarding a Third Opinion Award on the talk page of the Wikipedian  who gave the opinion.

ΙΩ/ΑΝ/ΗΣ
If the article is going to include this Orthodox-style icon under "Sainthood", then shouldn't the Greek be made comprehensible?

The second word is ΙΩΑΝΗΣ, that is, John. But the first word?

And why does it say Will.I.AM?

Varlaam (talk) 09:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Files for deletion/2011 April 6
All opinions welcome. Thank you. walk victor falktalk 06:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * i see images in loc are copyrighted
 * google images you might use the album cover "Blue Train (album)", or "blue note years" . Slowking4 (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Flute
What about the flute? He played well on it. Why not have this information in the article? Luudi1 (talk) 12:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, all the critical write-ups I've read about JC's flute playing was rather unenthusiastic. And I would never categorize Coltrane as even a fair flautist, let alone a good one.  Someone who was splendid on jazz flute like Eric Dolphy or Roland Kirk will be remembered for their accomplishments on the instrument; Coltrane seemed interested but it was little more than noodling on it. HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Instruments in infobox
'Trane's three main instruments were the tenor, alto, and soprano saxophones. Flute and bass clarinet were minor instruments which I do not believe need to be mentioned in the infobox. Any thoughts or opinions on this? ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive 16:00, 29 September 2011 (UTC)


 * . . . actually, just the tenor and soprano saxes - he never consistently utilized the alto saxophone.HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree. I actually never heard Coltrane playing anything except saxophone.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 17:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * However, looking at the "Instruments" section, there is written he played clarinet at the early age and the flute toward the end. He also played the horn. I must say that I never heard his "very early" music, where he, as a teenager, was just a band member in a very small band. I also never heard his late music. Reading the last unreferenced sentence, he just "experimented" some music with the flute.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 17:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Ornette Coleman image
How is the subject of this article illuminated by a contemporary image of Ornette Coleman? Not even the caption, talking about their respective roles in the "New Thing" in the early '60s helps clarify why an image from the 2000s is relevant for a musician who died in 1967. I think that image should be deleted. ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive 22:59, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Discography
Could everyone who keeps adding to the discography section here please note the heading
 * Discography below lists albums conceived and approved by Coltrane as a leader during his lifetime. It does not include his many releases as a sideman, sessions assembled into albums by various record labels after Coltrane's contract expired, sessions with Coltrane as a sideman later reissued with his name featured more prominently, or posthumous compilations except for the one which he approved before his death. See main discography link above for full list.

Coltrane, as much as any recording artist of the 20th Century, suffered from a deluge of outtakes at recording sessions assembled into albums, some while he was still alive and now signed to a new record company. While containing fine music, both Coltrane Plays the Blues and Coltrane's Sound were recorded at the sessions for My Favorite Things, these tracks assembled into albums by Atlantic Records AFTER COLTRANE HAD LEFT THE LABEL AND WITHOUT HIS INPUT. They belong in the main article for his discography, but not here. The discography section within the body of the biographical article serves a useful function in differentiating the releases Coltrane actually worked on and approved against the flood of releases made without his approval while alive or assembled after his death. If you go to the online catalogue index, you can tell by company catalogue number the sequence in which titles were released and/or renamed. Similarly, Live at the Half Note: One Down, One Up, Sun Ship and Cosmic Music are posthumous releases on Impulse Records, and do not belong on this list. Although the cover art of the current compact disc indicates a later vintage, Kulu Se Mama carrying an Impulse early 9100 series catalogue number was released in 1965 and belongs here. Please make no further edits to this list unless omissions are found in the Prestige catalogue - this list covers all the Blue Note, Atlantic, and Impulse! releases authorized by Coltrane himself. Thanks.PJtP (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've had to revert the discography again. Do not make any alterations to the discography within the body of the article. I've already asked politely - do not change it again.PJtP (talk) 01:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * And again. Look, people, the discographical list on this bio page is complete - there is no need to ever add anything to (or subtract from) it ever. John Coltrane will never authorize an album for release again; every album that he personally put together and authorized to be issued is already on this list, and that will never change. All other albums released that are credited to John Coltrane are on the comprehensive discographical Wikipedia page for Coltrane, linked at the header for this list. Do not add any more albums, for they will not fall within the parameters of this short discography explained above and as indicated on the page itself. PJtP (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

John Coltrane: Convert to Islam and Muslim name 'Jamaluddin'
User:John wants this addition to be discussed for some reason... I have cited my references, and they both corroborate with each other. I shall go on and add it to the article again. I don't see what is wrong with it. --Mostgraciousmostmerciful (talk) 11:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Despite the great speculation and conjecture surrounding Coltrane's actual religious affiliation, and irrespective of his clearly Universalist stance regarding religion and his diverse studies thereof, Alice Coltrane, upon being asked by the respected American Muslim scholar and convert Hamza Yusuf Hanson, whether John was a Muslim, set the record straight and confirmed: "Yes he was, his name was Jamaluddin, and he was very proud of his Islam".
 * The fact that Coltrane had a Muslim name (indicating his conversion to the faith) was also confirmed by former bandmember Rashied Ali, also a Muslim, in an interview for Jazzwise magazine, saying: "John had said to me once when he went to get my passport ’Do you want it in Robert Patterson or Rashied Ali?’ I said ’I think I’ll do it in Rashied Ali’ and never looked back. You know, John had a Muslim name too but he never used it."
 * This is too Muslim-centric, I think. None of the information is really important. But let's see what others think. Regards.-- GoP T C N 11:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't find these sources convincing. We have someone quoting someone who is quoting Alice after John's death.  That is highly suspicious to me.  None of the accepted sources on John's life say that he converted to Islam, and none of his public expressions of religious faith use Muslim terminology, for example, he says "God" but never says "Allah".  I find this dubious, to say the least.  If this is going to be added, it needs better sources than these. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  14:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't find these sources convincing. We have someone quoting someone who is quoting Alice after John's death.  That is highly suspicious to me.  None of the accepted sources on John's life say that he converted to Islam, and none of his public expressions of religious faith use Muslim terminology, for example, he says "God" but never says "Allah".  I find this dubious, to say the least.  If this is going to be added, it needs better sources than these. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  14:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Why is it so important on an article about a musician to include this material on his supposed spiritual beliefs? --John (talk) 17:41, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * @ The Old Jacobite <sub style="font-family:Courier New; color:#006600;">The '45 ; Well, surely the Rashied Ali source is convincing enough; it's from his own website, and there are other sources for that quote too, so, at the very least it should be accepted that John indeed had a Muslim name, and, with that, the quote from Alice becomes more acceptable, and the overall body of evidence is mutually strengthened. That's why I said the two references corroborate with each other, even if the quote from Alice may at first seem 'suspicious' to some. Why should one be suspicious about the quote from Alice? And with regards to God/Allah being two mutually exclusive Names; that is just a fallacy, because 'Allah' in Arabic simply means 'The God' (Al = The; Illah = God), which is also cognate with 'Eloh' in Hebrew and 'Alaha' in Aramaic. Most english translations of the Qur'an render 'Allah' as God. So the argument over John's non-use of Muslim terminology is a non-argument. And, besides, John composed the song 'Naima' - which in Arabic means 'blessing'; 'ease'; 'comfort'; 'rest' etc. - for his Muslim wife which he continued to play until the end of his life.


 * @John; Well, the other material regarding John's spiritual beliefs were deemed important enough to be included in the main article, so why shouldn't this? Other articles about musicians often include information about their spiritual beliefs/affiliations. To consider Coltrane as merely a musician would be to do a great disservice to him. The music comes from an inspired Spirit, transmitted through the Mind, manifests through the Body to the instrument where it then is delivered to our Bodies, and from the Mind transmitted to the Spirit and inspires us. All I have done is provide some important pieces to the puzzle about a little known and much speculated-over aspect of John's life.


 * @ GoP <sub style="color:#8EE5EE;">T <sup style="color:#8EE5EE;">C <sub style="color:#8EE5EE;">N ; I don't think it's too Muslim-centric. I did, at the outset, reaffirm the fact that ultimately John's stance was Universalist in nature, and that this was reflected in his diverse religious and spiritual readings. What if it was 100% confirmed that he had accepted Islam as Alice was reported to have said? Would it then still be too Muslim-centric?


 * In closing; As I have remarked above, I believe that the two sources mutually corroborate with each other and provide an acceptable body of evidence to indicate that: 1) (at the very least) Coltrane had a Muslim name; 2) The quote from Alice confirms he had a Muslim name, and adds that it was Jamaluddin; and 3) That at some point in his life (regardless of and not to the exclusion of his overall Universalist stance) he had accepted Islam. I think that to disregard this evidence, and to persist in removing the two paragraphs of mine from the main article is unfair and unfounded.


 * Best wishes and Kindest Regards. Salaam/Shalom/Peace. --Mostgraciousmostmerciful (talk) 04:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Please review Talk:John_Coltrane/Archive_1. Viriditas (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

New discography
Hi, I have created a new John Coltrane discography page at John Coltrane discography using sortable tables. All items in the discography are either sourced through separate Wikipedia pages or researched materials. Other unconfirmed releases have been removed. Over the next few days I will continue to add citations to the introduction as well as additional compilations I found after my initial work.
 * In regards to separating Coltrane's contract work with Prestige and Atlantic from his post-contract albums: According to my research, the only time Coltrane had complete control over the packaging of his music was with Impulse. Prestige and Atlantic dictated the packaging of his albums while he was under contract and afterwards. So it is inaccurate to call the post-contract albums "unauthorized and without Coltrane's input." However, there is some debate around this issue, so I felt it was best to create separate tables of "contract" and "post-contract" albums for now.
 * In regards to the temporary removal of unofficial Coltrane releases: In the future these should be housed under a separate table. I did not include them because I didn't have time to source them -- they are haphazardly sourced on Wikipedia -- and I could find no official Wikipedia policy regarding bootlegs. At the very least, these should be kept separately from Coltrane's official discography. As for the Pablo Records live releases, these were legitimately licensed for release. I will add a citation confirming this shortly. Infamous30 (talk) 13:07, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Infoboxes
I'm surprised to see my merging of the article's two infoboxes reverted wholesale, especially with the edit summary "These changes should be discussed on talk". Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:29, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it wasn't an actual merge, and if you are going to do it that way, I think the nesting method is ideal. However, I still maintain that the Saint infobox should appear in the Saint section, not at the top, but I suppose I'm in the minority on this one. Viriditas (talk) 09:55, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I do not understand what you find so surprising. You merged the infoboxes with no explanation of your reasoning, and I reverted you, saying that such changes should be discussed.  Given all the discussion that has gone on around Coltrane's sainthood, did you not realize your changes would be controversial?  I think we need to keep both infoboxes intact, but would have no problem with seeing it moved to the relevant section, per Viriditas's suggestion. --- The Old Jacobite <sub style="font-family:Courier New; color:#006600;">The '45  13:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Count me as a supporter of the "saint" infobox in the "saint" section. That viewpoint is such a ridiculously small and FRINGE viewpoint it should not be given WP:UNDUE weight by being elevated to the lead or incorporated into the main infobox. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  18:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Please delete the religious views passage beginning with "Moustafa Bayoumi"
On the album A Love Supreme Coltrane repeats the title of the album in refrain clearly and articulately. Bayoumi's claim that "A Love Supreme slides easily into Allah Supreme" is not relevant to Coltrane's religious views. The fact that one author states that the chorus of the song "slides easily" into other words is wholly unrelated to the song and John Coltrane's religious views. It serves as a point of confusion in the religious views section. Referenced of not, John Lennon's religious views section should not contain an entry that says: Author John Doe has been cited as saying that the lyrics "I heard the news today, oh boy" slide easily into "I heard the Jews today, oh boy." The fact that a single person thinks that the structure and prosody of a refrain could accommodate a different set of words does not deserve mention. Please read that section carefully, the Bayoumi passage is not only absurd, it has nothing to do with John Coltrane's religious views. The passage should be reformed to appear as follows:

In his book John Coltrane: His Life and Music (2000), on page 242, Lewis Porter describes the lyrics of Coltrane's A Love Supreme (recorded in December 1964 and released in 1965) this way: "Coltrane and another voice—probably himself overdubbed—chant the words 'a love supreme' in unison with the bass ostinato". In The Dawn of Indian Music in the West: Bhairavi (2006), on page 283, Peter Lavezzoli says, "Certainly in his opening solo in "Acknowledgment," with his constant modulations of the same phrase in different keys, Coltrane assumes the role of the preacher. After stating the theme in every possible key, Coltrane concludes his solo and quietly begins to chant, "A love supreme ... a love supreme," singing the same four notes played by Garrison on the bass. After chanting "A love supreme" sixteen times, Coltrane and the band shift from F minor down to E flat minor, and the chant slowly tapers off." Whatever the case may be, the liner notes to A Love Supreme appear to mention God in a Universalist sense, and do not advocate one religion over another.[33] Further evidence of this universal view regarding spirituality can be found in the liner notes of Meditations (1965), in which Coltrane declares, "I believe in all religions."[30]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.54.247 (talk) 14:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking this to the talk page. I was not involved with the initial discussion and only reverted based on consensus. Having read your comment, I would agree that the interpretation of the line as "Allah" may fall under WP:UNDUE and possibly WP:FRINGE as there is no evidence that Coltrane was a Muslim nor was particularly interested in the subject. The claim seems to be about African-American music in general and is using Coltrane to bolster that claim. Which is fine academical, but we do need to follow the mainstream academic consensus and minimize new theories. We'll have to wait and see what other editors think but I'm inclined to agree that the contested info, even though sourced may be undue weight on a minor theory.  freshacconci  talk to me  15:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Moustafa Bayoumi passage
In determining the legitimacy of the Moustafa Bayoumi passage, it is important to examine the passage in terms of its substance and relevance to John Coltrane's religious views, not in terms of its relation to previous discussions of his faith. Moustafa Bayoumi once stated that the the words "A Love Supreme easily slide into Allah Supreme". Although the fact that these two phrases ryhme may hold meaning for this author, it not relevant to John Coltrane's religious views in any way. It is not appropriate to include an anecdote so immaterial.

More importantly, the passage is predicated on the misquoting of an unfinished, unpublished college essay in which Moustafa Bayoumi makes claims regarding John Coltrane and others without offering any formal citations.

"Moustafa Bayoumi, an associate professor of English at Brooklyn College, City University of New York, has been cited as claiming that Coltrane's A Love Supreme (recorded in December 1964 and released in 1965) features Coltrane chanting, "Allah Supreme"

-The citation mentioned above misrepresents Moustafa Bayoumi's statement; he never made such a claim.

Bayoumi's own written assertion is only that "I've long thought that the chanting we hear on Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" slides easily into "Allah Supreme"".

-Bayoimi made the assertion above in an unfinished, unpublished, college essay completely devoid of formal citation (as stated at the conclusion of the essay). In addition, the assertion is an irrelevant, improperly cited tangential connection which does nothing more than present one author's observation that "A Love Supreme" and "Allah Supreme" happen to rhyme. The paragraph in question should be edited to appear as follows:

In his book John Coltrane: His Life and Music (2000), on page 242, Lewis Porter describes the lyrics of Coltrane's A Love Supreme (recorded in December 1964 and released in 1965) this way: "Coltrane and another voice—probably himself overdubbed—chant the words 'a love supreme' in unison with the bass ostinato". In The Dawn of Indian Music in the West: Bhairavi (2006), on page 283, Peter Lavezzoli says, "Certainly in his opening solo in "Acknowledgment," with his constant modulations of the same phrase in different keys, Coltrane assumes the role of the preacher. After stating the theme in every possible key, Coltrane concludes his solo and quietly begins to chant, "A love supreme ... a love supreme," singing the same four notes played by Garrison on the bass. After chanting "A love supreme" sixteen times, Coltrane and the band shift from F minor down to E flat minor, and the chant slowly tapers off." The liner notes to A Love Supreme appear to mention God in a Universalist sense, and do not advocate one religion over another.[33] Further evidence of this universal view regarding spirituality can be found in the liner notes of Meditations (1965), in which Coltrane declares, "I believe in all religions."[30]

[ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.54.247 (talk) 16:12, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

A Love Supreme cut
I cut the following from the Religious section, as it's not relevant there. It could be useful somewhere...

Biographer Lewis Porter describes the lyrics of Coltrane's A Love Supreme (and released in 1965) this way: "Coltrane and another voice—probably himself overdubbed—chant the words 'a love supreme' in unison with the bass ostinato". In The Dawn of Indian Music in the West: Bhairavi (2006), on page 283, Peter Lavezzoli says, "Certainly in his opening solo in "Acknowledgment," with his constant modulations of the same phrase in different keys, Coltrane assumes the role of the preacher. After stating the theme in every possible key, Coltrane concludes his solo and quietly begins to chant, "A love supreme ... a love supreme," singing the same four notes played by Garrison on the bass. After chanting "A love supreme" sixteen times, Coltrane and the band shift from F minor down to E flat minor, and the chant slowly tapers off." EddieHugh (talk) 10:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Black/African & teachings of/works ascribed to
There is something close to an edit war over whether to have:

1. "historical black saints" or "historical African saints"

2. "the philosophical teachings of Plato and Aristotle" or "the philosophical works ascribed to Plato and Aristotle"

All involved/interested (including Sluffs and TheOldJacobite): please comment here rather than changing the article itself again. EddieHugh (talk) 18:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I've left a post on the Talk Page of TheOldJacobite. Though for completeness I'll copy and paste it below:

Please justify you changes to the Coltrane article by providing works by Aristotle in his own words. (POST TITLE)

You do know there are no existing works by Aristotle and that all we have are either notes by his students or summaries/analysis by others. So why do you object to the term "ascibed" which means the "source of" without implying direct authorship or wording.

I'll undo your edit in the meantime - please provide proof of the works by Aristotle in his own hand before you revert.

cheers Sluffs (talk) 16:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

No. It serves a better purpose here where less experienced editors can learn how to deal with you. When you revert their edits they will naturally come here to see the reactions and actions of other editors you have reverted. Anyway back to the point of the word "ascribed" - here's a link to a Google book which discusses the origin of the works of Aristotle:

Aristotle's Philosophical Development: Problems and Prospect By William Robert Wians

You will have to go back and forth a bit to digest the material but here's a direct quote:

"...we may concede that such great works as the Metaphysics, the Politics, and the logical writings did not receive their present form from Aristotle himself, that concession does not deprive Aristotle of the authorship, but only of the arrangement of those works"

So we know it is the work of Aristotle that we are dealing with but no one can say whether it is as he intended or wished. The works are ascribed to him - in other words we are using copies of his works compiled and edited by other authors who claim Aristotle as the original source. For those that read the above and think that I have presented evidence that supports the opposite view know that all original works from circa 400BC Ancient Greece have not survived intact in their original Greek wording and form. I do not deny his authorship but like hell am I going to leave anyone reading the Coltrane article with the belief that Aristotle and Plato's teachings are verbatim. That is like reading Tolstoy in English and presuming that nothing has been lost in translation. Using the word "ascribed" will (imo) give a hint to readers that further investigation on their part is needed whereas "teachings" gives a sense of unquestionable quasi-religious truths which is anathema to philosophy anyway.

I presume you have a motive for your reverting that is not based on the words "teachings" or "ascribed". The issue is minor (in the sense that your edit or mine are not going to disrupt the article to the point of complete fallacy) so I presume something else is driving you to quibble over such matters. Please enlighten us as to your reasons?

Sluffs (talk) 19:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

(POST END)

Sluffs (talk) 19:58, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * As Sluffs has been indefinitely blocked, this issue is now moot. --- The Old Jacobite <sub style="font-family:Courier New; color:#006600;">The '45  15:34, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Did John Coltrane have a daughter or daughters?
In the German Version of the Wikipedia biography a daughter named Miki with Naima is mentioned. Because in this english version the daughter isn't mentioned I've googled around. Beyound dispute Naima had a daughter Antonia, later called Syeeda. There's told, she's now spelling Saeeda. In the book "John Coltrane: His Life and Music" by Lewis Porter a Sheila is mentioned six times as a daughter of John's, called by him as a descendant. She's apparently an illegitimate child of John's. In Germany, Miki Coltrane is mentioned a number of times as the daughter of John and Naima, surfing the english Google she's called a daughter of J. C. By http://jazztimes.com/articles/21083-miki-coltrane she's called a daughter by J. C. with Alice. I'm not able to resolve these contradictions but wanted to notify this to you experts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakkik (talk • contribs) 12:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

He had a step-daughter, Antonia Andrews aka Saeeda Coltrane (nick-named Toni), who he helped raise from the time he married her mother Naima. I lived a few blocks away from them when they lived in St. Albans, N.Y. on Mexico Street and was at their home fairly often. "Neet" (Naima) used to take some of us teenagers to Trane's gigs. Syeeda's Song Flute is named for his step-daughter.

Much of the literature about Coltrane is missing the important influence Naima had on Trane...and the events that happened during the time period they were married, due perhaps to the influence of his second wife. DeeOlive (talk) 09:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Article introduction is a bit loose and needs tightening
The introduction to this article is a bit loose mentioning his wife, son, Miles Davis, his canonization, etc. Also it has the sentence "pioneer of the use of modes in Jazz". As a musician I can tell you that modes and scales are the same thing. The Ionian mode is the major scale. The distinction between modes and major/minor scales is one of usage as far as modern Harmony goes. No song exists without tonal and modal qualities. I always thought that the liner notes for Kind Of Blue were written to impress non-musicians. Miles turns up with a modal riff and says lets invent a new modal approach which assigns a thousand years of modal and tonal experimentation (by composers as illustrious as Bach and Mozart) to the bin. Poor Guido d'Arezzo will be turning in his grave and Hildegard of Bingen might as well have not bothered writing music.

A rewrite is needed - one that elucidates Coltrane rather than all the surrounding details. His son, wife, Miles Davis, etc are all in the main body of the article and to have them mentioned in the introduction is more of a distraction than a bonus. To illustrate my point here's a crude limited imaginary opening about John Lennon:

Lennon was a member of the Beatles. His son Julian is also a songwriter and musician. After the Beatles disbanded Lennon pursued a successful solo career. He was married to Cynthia while in the Beatles then married Yoko Ono. Lennon was shot dead by Michael Chapman. His song "Imagine" won numerous awards.

Even though the above may not seem related to Coltrane it is. That is exactly how the intro comes across - disjointed, jumping from point to point, and full of details that have no place in an introduction.

I'm interested in this article and wouldn't mind giving the introduction a more concise form. I'm doing other articles at the moment but I'll come back here to familiarize myself with this article and if the muse strikes I'll do the introduction rewrite.

Chromaticism, modes, motifs, improvisation are not the preserve of Jazz - Mozart was a supreme improviser and cadenzas are left blank to allow classical musicians the chance to improvise. A little tip for musicians starting out - in the key of C major (Ionian mode) the modal chords are Dm, Em and Am; the rest are tonal chords apart from the diminished chord on the 7th degree which is normally treated as a partial dom7 without the root. So if you want to revolutionize your next band practice develop a riff based on the modal chords of C major get the musicians to shift it up and down a semitone every four bars so its chromatic in the extreme and voila.

The above is not me being sarcastic or dismissive of Miles or Coltrane since it still takes skill to play anything well and they were the best musicians of their generation. Also the sentence on emotional significance of raga scales is exactly the same as the Baroque musicians view of what they termed in the 16th century as "affections" (more correctly Doctrine of Affections) associated with modes. Coltrane was a deep student of music. Now I've had my "Sturm und Drang" moment I'm off to watch Star Trek.

Sluffs (talk) 01:25, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * sluffs was permanently blocked-requesting Admin to "hat" this rambling irrelevant incoherent section - thanks HammerFilmFan (talk) 08:10, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Olatunji Concert
The Olatunji Concert? [the last stereo recording released by John Coltrane] "This is the last stereo recording released by John Coltrane, recorded only two months before his death, and a month before the onset of the sudden illness that would take his life. Although the extensive solos on this recorded are poorly recorded, they paint an extensive and multi-faceted picture of a musician who lived in an era of widespread turmoil, and who was perfectly willing to shy away from others' preconceived notions of what music should be." ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 12:24, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Coltrane didn't release it. The relevant record company did, decades after he died. HammerFilmFan (talk) 08:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Thesis in ext. links
I removed the following from the ext. links section and bring it here for discussion.


 * John Coltrane, Avant Garde Jazz and the Evolution of "My Favorite Things" academic thesis

Is this thesis notable? I have no idea, but I would like to hear other's opinions. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 16:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It was not written by Coltrane. I don't see how it is notable. It simply discusses his performances, in rather involved and esoteric musical terms. I can't see how the average reader would glean anything from this, let alone understand half of it. --Manway (talk) 19:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * This thesis has a pretty superficial analysis of several different recordings of "My Favorite Things." It's not really a work of scholarly criticism (which might make it notable), doesn't include any new biographical or discographical information about Coltrane, and doesn't appear to draw an any personal interviews of anything that would make it an important primary source. You say the that it uses "rather involved and esoteric musical terms," but I would call that generous: you don't need more than a basic understanding of jazz theory to understand the text. Anyway, if "My Favorite Things" is essential to this article, then we should cite the actual recordings and not this random guy's thesis. Ultrauber (talk) 17:08, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on John Coltrane. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20151222203656/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-klingenstein/ to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-klingenstein

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II <sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS"> Talk to my owner :Online 05:16, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on John Coltrane. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110608155911/http://www.jindustry.com/xtra/coltrane/html/saintjohn.html to http://www.jindustry.com/xtra/coltrane/html/saintjohn.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.forministry.com/USNJECUSASBECS/SaintJohnColtrane.dsp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 10:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on John Coltrane. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090929010714/http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/539/?pageno=5 to http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/539/?pageno=5
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090103101749/http://www.allaboutjazz.com/coltrane/article_003.htm to http://www.allaboutjazz.com/coltrane/article_003.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060812213403/http://elvispelvis.com/jazzchurch.htm to http://elvispelvis.com/jazzchurch.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 11:21, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on John Coltrane. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101218030246/http://www.saintgregorys.org/worship/art_section/243 to http://www.saintgregorys.org/worship/art_section/243/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:28, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Not an "Anglican saint"
Let's get this quite clear, Coltrane does not have recognition as an "Anglican saint". Not only was he not an Anglican but he has not been officially recognised as a saint by any member church of the Anglican Communion (including the Episcopal Church in the United States). The fact that he is one of a number of people depicted as "dancing saints" on the wall of one unconventional and idiosyncratic Episcopal church in San Francisco does not give him any kind of officially recognised status as saint within Anglicanism. It should also be pointed out that among these so-called "dancing saints" on that church's wall are various people who weren't even Christians. Anglicanus (talk) 15:32, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what this refers to (I don't see this issue in the article history, at least not the recent history). Your edit here with an edit summary similar to what you wrote above did not match your actual edit (switching "pianist" for "harpist"). Perhaps you could elaborate on what you're talking about.  freshacconci  (✉) 20:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * . My edit and edit summary were about the false claim that Coltrane is recognised as an "Anglican saint". He isn't. The African Orthodox Church recognises him as a saint but this is NOT part of any Anglican church. My edit had nothing to do with "harpist". Anglicanus (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * : I now understand the problem. I thought I was reverting a reversion of my removal of the false claim that Coltrane is recognised as an "Anglican saint". Apologies for the confusion. Anglicanus (talk) 13:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I’ve shortened the lead on this issue. Acknowledge his canonization in this one church, but remove the redundant bolded title.   Work permit (talk) 12:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Please see the discussion at the top of the talk page. Coltrane was canonized by African Orthodox Church, which is part of the Worldwide Anglican Communion. ---<b style="font-family: Georgia;"> The Old Jacobite </b><i style="font-family: Courier New;">The '45</i> 14:23, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * This is complete nonsense. The African Orthodox Church has NOTHING to do with the Anglican Communion. This claim is simply factually incorrect and any claims that Coltrane is recognised as an "Anglican saint" are completely false. Anglicanus (talk) 13:08, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Anglicanus is correct in that the African Orthodox Church is not a member of the Anglican Communion, although this does not necessarily mean it is not Anglican. There are many Anglican churches which exist outside of the Anglican Communion (See Continuing Anglican movement for independent Anglican churches and Anglican Use for Anglican liturgy within the Latin Rite). That being said, I cannot find sources that clarify exactly where the African Orthodox Church fits in. It seems they have a historic connection with the Episcopal Church in the United States and also had a large number of members who came from Anglican background, but they quote a (unrecognized) connection with the Syriac Orthodox Church. Are they Anglican? Oriental Orthodox? Catholic? So far I almost want to place them as "Independent Catholicism" but cannot find the sources to prove that either. Thoughts on what we should do? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 14:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The St John Coltrane Church is not connected to any kind of Anglican church, either Anglican Communion, "Continuing" or independent, and has no Anglican identity. The original "African Orthodox Church" arose as an independent church which was created, as many others were around that time, in a line of ordinations from Rene Vilatte (who was consecrated as a bishop by Syrian Orthodox bishops) and other episcopi vagantes. That church was created by a former African-American priest of the Episcopal Church. It is my understanding, however, that the St John Coltrane Church, whilst also calling itself "African Orthodox", has no actual connection or association with any other "African Orthodox" church. It appears to be entirely independent. Anglicanus (talk) 04:59, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Both Directions at Once
Both Directions at Once: The Lost Album is repeatedly (and in good faith) added to the article's discography section. Currently, that section refers to the more comprehensive separate article John Coltrane discography and then defines what is listed in this article as:


 * "The discography below lists albums conceived and approved by Coltrane as a leader during his lifetime. It does not include his many releases as a sideman, sessions assembled into albums by various record labels after Coltrane's contract expired, sessions with Coltrane as a sideman later reissued with his name featured more prominently, or posthumous compilations, except for the one he approved before his death. See main discography link above for full list."

Is there agreement that the recently released Both Directions at Once does not qualify to be listed in that section? If so, is it mainly because there is no evidence that Coltrane approved its release as an album? ---Sluzzelin talk  17:26, 10 September 2018 (UTC)