Talk:John Doe

Always used in other English-speaking countries?
In the very first paragraph, it states as follows: "This practice is widely used in the United States and Canada, but is always used in other English-speaking countries including the United Kingdom, from which the use of "John Doe" in a legal context originates."

Considering the list of similar placeholder names in various countries worldwide (as moved to this talk page by IP user 66.183.69.201), as well as comparing this article at least to its German, Spanish and Portuguese version, it appears that in most English-speaking countries other than the U.S. and possibly Canada, other placeholder variants are preferred. Hence, the above sentence should likely rather say: "This practice is widely used in the United States and Canada, but is not always used in other English-speaking countries including the United Kingdom, from which the use of "John Doe" in a legal context originates."

Are there native speakers around who might be able confirm this, and possibly correct the statement? --Crazyberserk (talk) 09:21, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

JK Rowling
The date referenced by the section on John Doe injunctions in the UK has got to be wrong, or the paragraph is misleading.

In its current meaning, it states that JK Rowling obtained an injunction in 1850. However, JK Rowling is a contemporary author, born in 1965.

Aethalides (talk) 20:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Please refer to the original source that is linked to the quotation as a footnote. My guess is that there was another person named JK Rowling in the 19th century. --hydrox (talk) 20:38, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I did refer to it, and the fact that it pertains to an unpublished Harry Potter novel, and the fact that the order, once granted, was served to the internet providers (amongst others) led me to believe that it is in fact the contemporary author that is referenced, and therefore the implication that JK Rowling first obtained a John Doe injunction in 1850, is false. Aethalides (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC).
 * Oh, obiously yes. I should've read the source myself better. --hydrox (talk) 23:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Content Copy
User Kahkonen acknowledged that the list of "John Doe" equivalents in other languages that he added on October 30, 2004:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_and_Jane_Doe&oldid=7047252

was copied from fi-Wiki:

http://fi.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Matti_Meik%C3%A4l%C3%A4inen&diff=71416&oldid=71404

which was copied from de-Wiki on October 29, 2004:

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Otto_Normalverbraucher&diff=next&oldid=3054330

I assert that this page from de-Wiki was clearly copied without permission from the following page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030812154644/funnyname.com/anonymous.html

(Which current version can be seen at http://www.funnyname.com/anonymous.html)

--Kim Moser 18:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * All fine and well, but I'd like to remind our readers that such does not imply a copyright violation. Information, as is, can not be copyrighted – it is inherently free. However, a representation of that information, if sufficently original, is automatically copyrighted to the artist (writer, painter, typographer etc.) But here the information on the linked page was copied to the wiki, and originally represented here in the MediaWiki markup without direct copying. Creator of the site does not posses the copyright to the facts stated on the page, so permission is not needed to represent these facts in Wikipedia, as long there is no direct copying that exceeds the "citation" threshold. But the most important thing is still that no body can own the right to the fact Sven Medelsvensson is John Doe in Sweden. You can ask any copyright lawyer if you don't believe me (IANAL), but I think this is the case. --hydrox (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Formal and informal
There is a clear distinction between some placeholders, such as "John Doe" (USA) which are used in formal legal documents to refer to a person whose true name is not known; and to informal uses such as "Joe Bloggs" (UK) which is used informally, but never in a legal document. Of course, "John Doe" may also be used informally.

This is a practical issue in a work of reference such as Wikipedia: if I am working on legal documents, I need to know that I can use John Doe in the US, but should not use Joe Bloggs (or any other fictitious name) in the UK. Pol098 03:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you're drafting legal documents, I would hope that you're using something other than Wikipedia as a legal reference guide. 71.202.109.55 (talk) 03:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * None of the spanish placeholder name examples are formal, in fact, most of them are highly informal. Up to my knowledge (Native speaker but not a Spanish language degree holder):


 * Informal: Fulano, Mengano, Zutano, Sultano, Perengano. The later three are unknown to me and the people I've asked. They seem improvised variations.
 * VERY informal: Perico de los Palotes, Rita la pollera. They are used in sarcastic phrases 'Lo va a hacer Rita la Pollera'.
 * Pepe Pérez is used when running out of imagination while choosing a random name, like 'John Smith' is used sometimes.
 * Don Nadie is used to rudely diminish the relevance of someone. Like 'Ese Don Nadie no va a conseguir lo que se propone.'
 * Juan nadie and Juan español seem to be the only legitimate placeholder names but I don't think that they are used in any formal context. The later seems obsolete, it would be used only by the eldest or very patriotic/nationalist people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.163.231.141 (talk) 11:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Australia: I'm a funeral director who has extensive contact with the Coroners Court of Victoria including the burial or cremation of unidentified remains. "John Doe" (and "Baby Doe", etc) is used informally. I have never heard any other other expression used. On official documentation descriptions are more formal and vary with the type of remains. Checking through paperwork I've found --
 * Skeletal remains
 * Unknown male
 * Unknown baby boy
 * Skeletal remains - human jaw bone
 * Unknown (humerus bone)

Bernardmorey (talk) 08:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Remove inappropriate comments
How does one remove inappropriate comments like those below? I can see this text on screen but it didn't show up when I clicked on "edit." Thanks 198.240.133.75 02:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I deleted them. --esanchez, Camp Lazlo fan! 03:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

maybe more encyclopedic wording there:
 * ...legal debate over something called the Acts of Ejectment.

NPOV?
The NPOV tag was added to this article yesterday, with no other explanation here on the talk page or elsewhere. I'm not seeing right off the bat what, if anything, is NPOV about it, so I'm going to remove it. I do invite anyone who thinks it is not NPOV to add it back, but with accompanying comments here on this page explaining what they find has a non-neutral POV. --Reverend Loki 17:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Paul Martin
Is Paul Martin actually a name used in france for this? It doesn't seem french. It is also the name of the former prime minister of canada. I suspect some canadian vandalism, but i can't be sure.

I have a similar problem. I live in the Czech Republic, and the article lists the following names for my country: Jan Novák, Karel Vomáčka, Tomáš Martiník, Jan Skočdopole, pan Neznámý (Mr. Unknown) Jan Novák is definitely correct. Jan Skočdopole is very informal, and is used to signify a person who does manual, unqualified work. The surname is from three words "skoč do pole". It's a command instructing the person to go to the field, presumably to fetch something. I have never heard pan Neznámý, but it makes sense. However, I doubt Tomáš Martiník is used, and if it is it probably isn't wide spread. If I edited the article, it could be (correctly) viewed as original research. So I think we should get some sources, and weed out material that can't be sourced. We could use local Wikiprojects to help us out, since I think most sources will be in the official language of the country in question. Does anyone have energy to do this? Note: The site where this was allegedly copied from only lists Karel Novák, and Jan Novák, and I doubt it would be a decent source anywar. --Puchiko 08:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Fight Club
The main character of Fight Club has been identified by Chuck (can't spell last name) as being named "Jack"

Origin?
I have heard at least two explanations for the origin of the name. One was that the Capra film was the first use, but this I consider doubtful, and easily falsifyiable by demonstrating one usage before the film. Another theory I have heard is that it derives from the morgue, and specifically from the term D.O.A. - anyone know for sure? -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 07:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Supposed New York City specific names
The article lists "Joe Botts" and "Vinnie Boombotz" as used "particularly in New York City". Now, I grew up in New York, and never heard any of these. It may be that they are older (I'm in college), or that they are not so common, or that they are more specifically used in a borough other than Manhattan. Just bringing it up, since it's unsourced and I don't recognize them. --DragoonWraith (talk) 07:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I second this. I am also from New York & have never heard either of these before. caz | speak 06:13, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Inconsistency in formatting of article
The article is very inconsistent in the genealogy of the name Fulan(o/a) as well as offering the gendered form of the words throughout the article, depth of description of names and overall comprehensiveness of sections. Argentina lists Fulano as "via arabic" and has no feminine endings;

Columbia and Costa Rica says it is "probably from Arabic" and has no feminine;

Bolivia, Brazil, Ecuador, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Uruguay, Venezuala have no mention of where its Fulano came from nor feminized forms;

Cuba does not say from Arabic at all but does have feminine forms of all the masculine names;

Mexico and Guatemala appear to have some feminized but no attribution to Arabic;

Spain's contains explanation longer than entry on how to feminize words and is much more extensive than other Spanish speaking countries;

the explanation of German names far exceeds other names;

Hong Kong does not have the phonetic pronunciations unlike China;

Hungary's entry seems to have a note written in - "I'm testing" and also contains translations of meaning more extensive than other entries;

Indonesia does not mention the Arabic origin of Fulan;

Ireland's description is longer and more in depth than others;

Pakistan's entry has clearly been cut off and split up as well as listing Fulan from Persian not Arabic (indeed - should the Iran entry be amended to show it's from Arabic, or all the others to show it's from Farsi originally?);

Swahili does not mention the Farsi/Arabic roots.

As I am no expert on which came first, Fulan in Arabic or Farsi or whether words *are* from, *probably are from* or *might be from* (a big distinction this article is missing) and do not know what the appropriate feminized forms whether it's just masculine names feminized or if different names are used, and have zero knowledge of pronunciation guides for the HK words, another person who has more knowledge on the subject should edit the article substantively for these structural problems. Iammaggieryan (talk) 09:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean "Col o mbia" with an "o", not a "u", for the South American country name --Fandelasketchup (talk) 22:57, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

It would be better ordered by languages
I find quite confusing to order this article by countries. Where can we put the names used in Quechua (a language spoken in Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru)? And the ones used in Basque (a language spoken in Spain and France)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.87.12.123 (talk) 19:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Fulano
in spanish, "fulano" means something like "mr. such-and-such". sure, it may be that the word derives from the arabic, but it has it`s own meaning.

other question: does the word "thingumbob" really exist? my diccionary is giving me that word as a translation for fulano. --88.73.243.105 (talk) 22:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen the spanish words used in any legal matters, they are for coloquial use only. This is not clear in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.222.68.71 (talk) 08:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

In Popular Culture
If no one objects, I'm going to remove the In Popular Culture section of the article. It's really just an indiscriminate list of random places the term has been used, with no context. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 16:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation Page?
Shouldn't there be a disambiguation page linked here, for people looking for John Doe (singer, songwriter, and bass player with the band X) or the TV series John Doe? 98.100.187.80 (talk) 18:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

List is extremely unencyclopedic
(Justifying the removal of the list) To quote just a few (official) Wikipedia Policies I think apply here:
 * - "Wikipedia is not a dictionary or a slang, jargon or usage guide. The goal of this project is to create an encyclopedia."
 * - "Wikipedia is not in the business of saying how words, idioms, phrases etc., should be used."
 * - Articles are about "a person, or a people, a concept, a place, an event, a thing etc. that their title can denote. The article octopus is about the animal: its physiology, its use as food, its scientific classification, and so forth. " NOT about "the actual words or idioms in their title and all the things it can denote; the word 'octopus': its part of speech, its pluralizations, its usage, its etymology, its translations into other languages, and so forth."
 * - "Wikipedia is not in the business of saying how words, idioms, phrases etc., should be used" [in other languages or places], unless fundamentally necessary to the context of the article.
 * - Wikipedia is not "a complete exposition of all possible details" or an "indiscriminate collection of information."

That's simply from What Wikipedia is not. Original Research rules are also being missed out on here, read the rest of the talk page for proof of that. Almost all of the comments on the talk page regard the inherent unreliability and controversy surrounding such a list. I'm removing the list until/unless someone justifies or cites it (or somehow makes it otherwise acceptable). 66.183.69.201 (talk) 00:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please provide the list as subpage or talk subpage for discussion. Fuzzy (talk) 14:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I don't know how to do that, I'll just leave a copy of it here (it appears ridiculously unwieldy even here): 66.183.69.201 (talk) 02:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I offer this too, though I can't speak to its veracity: Futility Closet's Anonymous Identities Brauden (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

John Doe may be dead but...
...Does anyone know what he would be called in the UK? News reports indicate names are chosen according to the circumstances - "Mystery of Mr Seagull highlights tragedy of hundreds of bodies still unidentified" (Guardian). Whatever police/hospital terms are used they seem to make no impression on popular culture. Hakluyt bean (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Frequency
I had thought that the reason this name was chosen was because it was extremely common; was that not the case? (It does not seem to be common now.) -- Beland (talk) 20:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe you are confusing it with John Smith (name)? --hydrox (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

For origin of John Doe, there's only one questionable source...
What's In A Name. Merriam-Webster. 1996. ISBN 978-0877796138. I'm trying to research the definitive answer to this question of "when was John Doe first used (in law)" and all online sources seem to point back to this "What's in a Name" book, and I am suspicious. The cover makes it look like a 90's "children's fun facts" type title. The sources online that quote it give some variation of

"John Doe" dates from the reign of England's King Edward III (1312-1377). A famous legal document from this period labels a hypothetical landowner "John Doe," who leases land to a "Richard Roe..."

This famous legal document, I think, is the "action of ejectment" which used John Doe and Richard Roe as a ficticious plaintiff-defendant pair. But I don't know where What's in a Name gets the 1300's date. In the legal databases, which I have admittedly only scratched the surface of, I can't find references to anything earlier than the 1600's. Anyone have any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.108.221.97 (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

And what is the etymology? It's not a common surname, unlike Smith etc.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:02, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Still curious about the etymology, considering "Doe" is not a common English surname; so, why was it associated with anonymity?75.27.30.212 (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2018 (UTC)


 * It's still unknown, added a source and sentence that outright says this so the article doesn't read like an omission any more. http://mentalfloss.com/article/29996/why-are-unidentified-people-called-john-or-jane-doe JesseRafe (talk) 18:23, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Add "Jane Doe" and "Jane Roe" to introduction ?
Since there is no separate Wikipedia article for "Jane Doe" or "Jane Roe" and since the "Jane Doe" disambiguation page now references this "John Doe" article (and Jane Roe redirects to the Norma McCorvey article which includes a hatnote link back to "John Doe"), it seems helpful/appropriate (to me anyway) to add mention of "Jane Doe" (and "Jane Roe"?) as the female analogs of "John Doe" to the introduction of this "John Doe" article. Alternatively, a separate Wikipedia article for "Jane Doe" and/or "Jane Roe" could be created. Currently, combining the two concepts in this one article seems "reasonable" to me - although if the history and usage of "Jane Doe"/"Jane Roe" is actually much different from that of "John Doe" then perhaps a separate article(s) would be more appropriate??? I'm afraid I am not knowledgeable enough to make that assertion but I hope others with more subject-matter expertise can comment/make suggestions (or just "be bold" and create a new "Jane Doe/Roe" article - or not - as appropriate). Pugetbill (talk) 00:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian Version
The Serbian version for John Doe is "NN Lice" (UU Person). The two N stands for Nepoznato (Nepoznato = Unknown) (Ime: Nepoznato, Prezime: Nepoznato (Name: Unknown, Surname: Unknown)). Should we add it? KeurBro (talk) 16:23, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind, saw the table above. KeurBro (talk) 16:26, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Roe VS Doe
I am not sure Roe should be on this page. Jane and John Doe are used for unidentifiable female and male bodies. I believe Norma McCorvey used Jane Roe as a pun on Jane Doe, since roe is defined as "The mass of eggs contained in the ovaries of a female fish or shellfish, typically including the ovaries themselves...". I realize it can also refer to a deer, but I have never heard the term Jane Roe aside from its use in the Roe V. Wade case. 98.217.230.157 (talk) 14:44, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Juan Doe, Juanita Doe
Juan Doe, Juanita Doe should redirect here, they frequently appear in police an detective fiction as uses for Latino variants of John Does. -- 65.94.40.137 (talk) 08:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

In Roblox
John Doe theories are everywhere that every March 18th, Doe will hack logged in Roblox accounts, and that's the same with Jane Doe. User talk:M briglia05 16:59 19 March 2017 (UTC)

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Ted bundy
There were many Jane Does in Ted Bundy’s cases, approximately 11, and I think that fact should be added to this article. After all, who is a more famous serial killer than one Ted Bundy himself? 2A02:C7E:3CE6:A400:99F5:5B75:A587:9216 (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Is there any information to prove your statement? ☭MasterWolf-Æthelwulf☭ (=^._.^= ∫) 15:36, 1 February 2023 (UTC)