Talk:John E. Douglas

Middle Initial
I think the E. should be removed from John E. Douglas as the guy's books dont print his name with the middle letter 'E.' and even at his own personal website he (John Douglas) doesn't have the E. in it's URL or on it's main page headings. The reason to remove it is, if you are search wikipedia for John Douglas (Special Agent, FBI, ret.) then you wont find the correct JD.. but rather be linked to a quite different JD's wiki-page. And finally kudos to whoever initially created this page, JD is a fucking living legend and true hero. Dirk Diggler Jnr 00:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Also this page needs help with 'redirecting' from near accurate user searches.. E.G. if you search for "john e douglas", your result will yield zero matches.. to get a match you have to actually include the '.' that comes after the 'e'. (Btw, the 'e' which the actual man himself does not use with his name when it is printed on the books he has written. Dirk Diggler Jnr 00:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Inspirations
This claim by Douglas, or more likely his publicists, since in his book Manhunter, Douglas merely says "Jack Crawford - the special agent some say was based on me" (p.172), is disputed.

For example - From The Crime Library article on profiling: "Author Thomas Harris received permission to go to meetings and learn everything he could about the men who did the profiling. From them, he devised the novels, Red Dragon (1981) and The Silence of the Lambs (1988). The latter was made into a movie in 1991, winning five Academy Awards, including Best Picture, and bringing even more fame to the unit. This was considered a great benefit --- for a while. DeNevi and Campbell say that unit chief Roger Depue was the model for Jack Crawford in The Silence of the Lambs. Other sources indicate that Ressler (including himself) was the model, while still others say that it was John Douglas, who says that Harris spent a lot of time with him, as did the movie crew. He describes in Mindhunter how he showed Scott Glenn, the actor playing Crawford, some crime scene photos as a way for him to understand what the life of an FBI profiler was really like. There was also some indication from the fact that Crawford's original name was going to be Campbell that the model was John Campbell, who was also involved in reading the script." http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/profiling/history_method/16.html

and from Robert Ressler's book Whoever Fights Monsters: "some people still in the BSU have also taken to claiming that they were the models for the FBI characters in the book and movie Silence of the Lambs, though Harris has stated (and I agree) that the characters are entirely his own and not based on particular individuals" (p.275)

Given that Crawford was first created for Red Dragon the novel published in 1981, not for Silence of the Lambs in 1988, and that Crawford is actually the head of the unit and not the star profiler (Will Graham is the profiler, and therefore more likely to be based on Douglas or one of the other FBI profilers) and given that Douglas never actually makes this claim and it is directly disputed by several others, AND that Thomas Harris does not give interviews and therefore is most certainly not on record anywhere as having stated this... I am proposing taking this claim off the article. I think the other unsubstantiated claims of inspiration should be removed or reworded too. This is an excyclopedia based on facts not rumours and speculation.Aglie 00:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Doctorate degree?
Does anyone have more specific information on when/where he earned his doctorate degree? I found a reference (1999 Philadelphia Inquirer article) that says
 * Douglas opted for the Air Force, then received an undergraduate degree from Eastern New Mexico University, a master's from the University of Wisconsin, and a doctorate in education from Nova University in Florida.

but I cannot find a listing for him in the digital dissertation's database. Ydorb 19:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed text
This text was removed from the article. it purports to have been written by Douglas' son:

"My father is John Douglas. This information I have provided is 100% correct. I will testify to anyone anytime about this information. I have lived with my father for 20 years and I know everything there is to know. Being the only other male in our family has made my father and I very close, we share everything with eachother, the good times and the bad. Nearly 90% of news "profilers" that come on tv everytime a tragedy strikes are phonys. They are people that were either secretaries for my father, or that worked for my father doing menial things having nothing to do with cases, profiling, or criminals. These "fake" criminal profilers on the news get their "expertise" from reading a book like my father's on the subject of profiling. They never went to any classes, they dont have any expertise, and 9/10 they are wrong in their profiling. Example: During the D.C. sniper the so called profilers came out of the word work like Clinkt Van Zandt, Pat Brown, and many more. They all said the same thing. A White single Male that is older and probaly is a hunter. As we know that profile was 100% wrong. My father never gave any profile during that time because he knew that this was a case that could NOT be profiled. This was considered an embarrasment for the art of profiling but in reality all of these so called "profilers" that were on TV weren't even profilers to begin with. Another example is the Jon Bennett Ramsey case. My father testified infront of the Grand Jury supporting the Ramseys and the FACT that they did not murder their daughter. All others thought my father was insain, such as these false profilers. As we know again the Ramsey's were exonerated. Like i said, I will testify to anyone anytime about the truth of this information."

I am pasting this above so as not to lose it or be accused of editing inappropriately.LiPollis 20:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

More Original research deleted
I had to delete another section of Original Research on Douglas' alleged views on the Manson Case. it was added by a "John B of Philadelphia" which may be the same person who added the text above. Look - it seems you are unfamiliar with wikipedia standars, Tghis is an encyclopedia and not a chat room or   readers forum. We can't just paste anything we assume to be true into the article. If it is a fact, you must be able to cite your source (name of book, date and title of magazine article and so on). If what you are adding is a quote from a book, you need to put it in using the block quote code. Just look above the editing box and click on the second  to the last box that looks like a page of text and the Block Quote code will appear. Please also click on the next blue link I type: WP:NOR. That takes you to the article on why we don't allow Original Research in articles.

If you can give me the name of the book and the page where you found the text on manson, I'll put the info back in with a proper citation. If it was just your para[hrase of his views, that's OK too so long as I have the citation of where you got that info so I can look it up and make sure its an accurate restatement.

I would much prfer that we keep this article on the subject of John Douglas and his remarkable career in the FBI. The speculative nature of his opinions on historic cases is really not on point. Why not work towards describing his work on the historic cases he actually DID work on such as the Atlanta Child Murders, The Green River Killer etc etc.? That stuff is far more notable than his 'profiler for hire' opinions, or his armchair profiling of Jack the Ripper.LiPollis 11:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Self promoting?
"John Douglas pioneered Criminal Profiling, at the time of Criminal Profiling conception, Douglas was doubted and criticized by his own colleagues until, both police and the FBI realized that Douglas was right, and had developed one of the best tools used to this day to capture criminals. The polygraph and then DNA testing had many supporters; however the polygraph has been proven to be inaccurate, and even DNA testing doesn’t always catch a criminal, but Criminal Profiling is timeless and is something that cannot be learned on one's own, many years of psychology, and classes within Law Enforcement are needed."

This kinda strikes me as inappropriate for a wiki writeup. 207.81.201.213 10:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I have edited out the more obvious POV comments (eg. profiling is "timeless") and have added needs for citation. 202.129.79.166 01:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Questionable references to horror novels removed again
Some months ago, having found that John Douglas wrote four horror novels in the mid 1990s, I added them to the bibliography, and added a comment in the main part of the article that he had written the novels. Later someone else removed the list of books (but strangely left the general statement about having written the novels). I just noticed this a few hours ago, and so I did a bit of research just now to check on this. I was aware that the John Douglas who wrote the horror novels might be a different John Douglas from the subject of this article, and decided to try to find out more about this.

However, I found several sources that attributed the horror novelist's four novels and the criminal psychology books to the same person, even mixing the titles up in the same list. This includes sources which are reputable in the science-fiction/fantasy area such as www.isfdb.org and www.fantasticfiction.co.uk. So I concluded that the two John Douglases must in fact be the same person, and I restored the information which had been earlier removed, and gave references from these web sites.

However, I had lingering doubts, and did yet more searching to see if I could find a definite reference which either linked the supposed two Douglases together, making them the same person, or identified them as different.

Most sources either remain vague about the matter (if they are just referring to one book or subset of books by Douglas), or they seem to treat the two as being the same person; but one - just one - source that I've so far found - a library web site in South Australia - states that the horror novelist was born in 1955 - not 1945, as with the John E. Douglas this article is about.

I've just e-mailed the library to ask them where they got the 1955 birth-date from. In my mind it's still possible that the two are the same, and the 1955 figure is mistaken (or even just a typo). But, only an hour or two after reinstating the information about horror books by John E. Douglas, I've just removed it again. For future reference, in case it is relevant after all, I will quote here what I took out, so that if anyone else can verify that it belongs here, they can put it back.

This was the last sentence of the introduction to the article:


 * He also wrote four horror novels in the mid 1990s. http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?John%20Douglas John Douglas - Summary Bibliography < / ref > http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/john-douglas/ Fantastic Fiction: John Douglas < / ref>

("ref" tags changed to make them readable here, instead of just figures appearing.)

This appeared in the list of books, at the top of the section called "Fiction" (two asterisks and a space before each title - they don't show properly here):


 * The Late Show, 1994
 * Cursed, 1995
 * Hard Shoulder, 1996
 * Zoo Event, 1996

If I get confirmation from the library that the 1955 birth-date for the horror writer is correct, that is the end of the matter; but if I can confirm that the horror writer is John E. Douglas, then the above information can be put back into the article. M.J.E. (talk) 21:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed Theodore Kaczynski reference
The article stated that he interviewed Theodore Kaczynski (Unabomber) for his study in the late 70's. Not possible as he wasn't caught or even identified until Douglas's retirement.

Perhaps John did interview him later when he was caught. But it should be placed elsewhere in the article, and I'd like to see a reference for it, regardless.

I removed that reference. Beetle B. (talk) 04:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

On a similar note, the article implies that information obtained from Gary Ridgway was included in Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives. The most recent printing of the book appears to be from 1995, yet Ridgway was not identified as the Green River Killer until 2001.

West Memphis Three
Additon by Gizmo508 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_E._Douglas&oldid=225613843 15:44, 14 July 2008

Contributor placed it before two cited sources pertaining to the JonBenét Ramsey Case paragraph, while not citing a source for the statements made. Since then it has been moved around and the only current source given is pertinent to the WM3's release. Citation is needed as I have both books the contributor originally sourced (edit linked to above) for his claims detailed below. Neither sources mention the WM3 case. I dispute the relevancy of the below paragraph to Douglas, J.

"Douglas was consulted in yet another controversial case known as "The West Memphis Three". In 1993, three eight-year-old boys were murdered and police and the prosecutors office claimed the children died as a result of a Satanic ritual sacrifice. Three teens were later tried and convicted. Douglas concluded the case was not related to Satanism, but rather was a personal cause homicide. On August 19, 2011, Echols, Baldwin and Misskelley were released from prison after Judge David Laser accepted an Alford plea deal, in which the three plead "no contest" to the charges, thereby conceding that prosecutors had sufficient evidence to secure a conviction while reserving the right to assert their innocence."

I'm adding citation needed, unless sources can be ascertained which document his relation to said case, I will remove it completely. Nothinglastsforever (talk) 22:04, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Dead?
Someone put in today's date as a date of death. No confirmation found so far though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.193.191 (talk) 22:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

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