Talk:John Gillespie Magee Jr./Archive 1

Dates
"Pilot Officer John Gillespie Magee, Junior (June 9, 1922 – December 11, 1941) [...] Magee's posthumous fame rests mainly on High Flight, a sonnet he wrote between 18 August 1941 and 3 September 1941."

Fix?
Apparently he wrote the sonnet in August or September of 1941 - the date IMHO cannot be more accurately determined. Madman 16:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The exact date that Magee wrote High Flight is uncertain, but what IS known is that he included it in a letter to his parents, and dated it September 3rd, 1941. Magee's first flight in a Spitfire was August 7th. Thus, High Flight was written sometime between August 7th and September 3rd, 1941. RJHaas 21:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE 22 January 2008: I have obtained a copy of Magee's logbook. It shows a flight to 33,000 feet on 18 August 1941 in a Spitfire MKI. The letter to his parents which contains High Flight was written on 3 September 1941 - Magee writes that he started it after a flight to 30,000 feet. So, High Flight was written between those two dates.

I have also researched the aircraft that Magee flew on his inspirational flight. It was not, as has been stated, a new model of the Spitfire MKV, but a Spitfire MKI that served with 610 Squadron during the Battle of Britain. 

This poem was read at my uncle's funeral, (he worked on Spits). I've googled Magee and lots of sites say he was killed over Tangmere in Sussex and others say Lincolnshire. Why the conficting info? Anybody know? Kr, Neil B — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.138.116.230 (talk) 06:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Without a doubt, John Gillespie Magee, Jr., was killed after colliding with another aircraft near RAF bases Cranwell, Digby and Wellingore. There were multiple witnesses to the accident, both in the air and on the ground. Other items that confirm this are Magee's logbook (final entry by 412 Squadron Leader), 412 Squadron records, etc. I'd reference my own book on Magee, but it hasn't been published yet.... RJHaas (talk) 19:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Link
Removed the following dead link. Did not find an appropriate replacement, but then didn't spend more than five or ten minutes on it either. Jim 03:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * More poems by John Gillespie Magee, Jr

Can somebody link to the poem?
It's in Wikipedia, here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/High_Flight

But the "High Flight" page redirects to this article! The content about Magee's poem needs to be put on a page about the poem, I think -- and certainly this article should link to the poem. ChristinaDunigan 15:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a link to a copy of the actual manuscript: http://www.highflightproductions.com/ThePoem.html (LINK IS BROKEN). As part of my research into Magee and High Flight, I requested a copy of the original letter from the Library of Congress where it is kept. They wouldn't give me a new copy, but instead gave me what appears to be a copy of a copy of a copy. I "cleaned" it up using Photoshop... you can see both versions at the link above and see what Magee actually wrote. RJHaas 21:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Nationality
I'm not sure what nationality Magee would have used to describe himself, but as he had an Amercian father and a British mother, I think it is fair enough to describe him as American-British. He spent only 1+ year living in the US as opposed to 8+ in the UK. 86.136.195.43 12:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with this but at best he should be called British-American since he lived many more years of his live in Britan than America.


 * His nationality WAS American, i haven't been able to find a single source suggesting otherwise and have added a BBC reference that also says American. Its perfectly true he spent the vast majority of his life outside the US (he only spent a year there) and was brought up largely in the UK/China but his nationality was American.Zaq12wsx (talk) 02:31, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe that John Magee had dual citizenship: British (via his mother) and American (via his father). John himself would've considered himself more British than American. However, when he joined the Royal Canadian Air Force, he declared himself as American. Made for some interesting conversations for John, I'm sure. During Circus 110, there John was, an American born in China, serving in the Canadian Air Force, flying from England to fight Germans over France. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RJHaas (talk • contribs) 15:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * He may well have been a dual national, but all we have to go on is his declaration on joining the RCAF; it be interesting if some journalists/authors did more research into his past to discover how he viewed his nationality but until then virtually every source lists his nationality as American despite him spending only a year or so in the US!Zaq12wsx (talk) 16:10, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

If we are to base Magee's citizenship on where he lived the longest, then he would be Chinese, as he spent nearly half his life there (nine years). However, on all documents that I have been able to find (passenger manifests, application to join the RCAF, etc.) Magee lists his citizenship as American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RJHaas (talk • contribs) 13:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)


 * A late comment to the discussion. A reading of British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914 (if true) indicates that his mother lost her British citizenship upon marriage. Though he may still have been culturally Anglo-American. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that you are correct, Graeme, both about his mother's citizenship and John's cultural preference. In his RCAF application papers, John states, "Mother became American through marriage September 1921." Culturally, John was certainly more British than American in nearly every way except for officially. Magee considered England his home. RJHaas (talk) 20:25, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Possible plagiarism
I have made a separate section of this portion of the High Flight section as it is important. Far too many articles I have read on Magee verge on near-hagiography: the evidence is quite damning that he was heavily influenced by others and 'borrowed' (to give it a charitable name) an awful lot from other poets' work. Their work should be credited or at least acknowledged too, especially when Magee's work is so widely quoted and it is clearly 'not all his own work'. 86.136.195.43 13:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

More on possible plagiarism
This section title was removed but I have reinstated it: the evidence is compelling that Magee (a juvenile poet and therefore more likely to be influenced by the work of others) plagiarised phrases taken from other poems in High Flight. Their work should not go unrecognised as part of the formation process for this iconic poem 86.138.104.71 13:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This editor has again reverted the change without explanation. I have left a message on his or her talk page asking for the reasons for the change. 86.133.211.174 05:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

As original contributor of this section, I agree it's worth a separate section, but a different heading might be kinder. "Probable" is really too weak (coincidence doesn't stretch that far) but "plagiarism" has too harsh a tone. I'd go with something like: Sources of phrases in High Flight. Tony in Devon 15:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Further thought on my own note above: 'Unconscious plagiarism' is a shorter, very fair description that's just come to mind. And it would be nice to know where Magee read (as he must have) Icarus - probably in his Welsh(?) training base.Tony in Devon 19:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't disagree more. We don't know if it was unconscious or not. For all we know, he wrote High Flight with Icarus open on the desk next to him. It's plagiarism, for sure: we just don't know the degree of deliberation to it, and we shouldn't guess, which is what the phrase 'unconscious' is (and I'd disagree with 'very fair' too). That number of borrowed phrases, all from the same source, goes well beyond coincidence, as you say. 86.138.105.97 09:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Also - 'probable' is a stronger term that 'possible': I had thought of calling the section 'probable plagiarism' but decided against as it suggested we have knowledge about his thought processes and working methods that we don't. 'Possible' allows ambiguity to remain. 86.138.105.97 09:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

OK - I'm happy to leave it. A colleague writing about same facts was generous in allowing for pressure the young man must have been under, and the fact that the poem was despatched privately and not necessarily for publication... and I know I've found myself (in quieter times) writing phrases that I realise come unconsciously from other sources. Moving on, I'd love to trace the original writer of the final lines - and have made some "possible" progress - a long way from 'verifiable'! I'll add a link to Toronto Univ page; they have illustrated the sourced phrases more clearly than my own narrative. - Tony in Devon 11:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I have thought about this quite a bit during my research in Magee and "High Flight." I do have a copy of "Icarus - An Anthology of the Poetry of Flight" and have identified the relevant lines. My own conclusion is that the book "Icarus..." did serve as "source material" for High Flight. I personally do not think that it qualifies as plagiarism, as there is enough of Magee's original contribution to "High Flight" that makes it quite distinguishable from the other poems. In other words, other than a couple of lines, you would never mistake one poem for the other. This is just my humble opinion, arrived at after 18 years worth of continual research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RJHaas (talk • contribs) 02:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"even..." versus "ever..." ("...eagle flew")
A number of other websites, including one listed in this article's References, say that "or ever eagle flew" is the correct wording.

Some of them even explicitly cite "or even eagle flew" as a common error compared to the handwritten manuscript. Here are three sites that use "ever":

http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/2736.html

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/highflight.htm

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=564253

I haven't found a view of the manuscript, but it seems more likely that "ever" is correct, both because of the careful explanation given at the airforcehistory site, whose author claims to have seen the ms, and because that word harmonizes with the overall sonority, mood, and vocabulary of the poem as well as being locally echoed by "never".

So I would propose changing the word in the complete poem to "ever" and adding a note about the "even" variant.

Or failing that, to at least add a note about the issue.

Salliesatt (talk) 02:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the desire to be accurate in quoting Magee's poem. In my 18 years worth of research into Magee and his most famous poem, I have been asked many times about the "even" vs "ever" situation. I have concluded that what Magee intended on writing was "even," not "ever." The other citations notwithstanding, I submit my own evidence:

- The first known publication of High Flight is in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette newspaper. Published even before Magee died, the paper clearly shows "even" not "ever." — Preceding unsigned comment added by RJHaas (talk • contribs) 14:50, 20 August 2012 (UTC) - In "Sunward I've Climbed," the biography on Magee written by Hermann Hagedorn in 1942, the poem quotes "even." Hagedorn, without a doubt, had a close look at the original letter containing High Flight that was sent to Magee's parents. - Faith Magee, John Magee's mother, recited her son's poem for the United States Air Force - the recording is available from the USAF Museum. You can listen to the recording on my website (www.highflightproductions.com). Mrs. Magee quite clearly says "even eagle flew." I think that of all the people who have read Magee's letters, she would be the most familiar with his handwriting. - The letter itself. I have a high-resolution scan from the Library of Congress of Magee's letter containing High Flight. Indeed, Magee's "n" appears nearly identical to his "r". In the word "never" ("never lark, or even eagle"), both letters are used - and they are very similar. On the flip side of the page containing High Flight is an entire page of Magee's handwriting, with plenty of enns and arrs. I'm not a handwriting expert, but I could see where one could easily confuse one for the other.

In conclusion, I bow to Mr. Hagedorn and Mrs. Magee in their interpretations, and will fight any change from "even eagle flew" to "ever eagle flew."


 * I know this another one expression: "Where never lark, nor e'er eagle flew" ...but now I think it's wrong º-º — E.Herlitz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.44.109.192 (talk) 07:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Regards, Ray Haas  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RJHaas (talk • contribs) 23:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The US Library of Congress have published a blog article that includes a copy of the original (air-mail) letter that Magee wrote to his parents (that letter now forming a part of the LoC archive).

https://blogs.loc.gov/catbird/2013/09/john-gillespie-magees-high-flight/

It remains unclear, given the handwriting, whether the word is 'even' or 'ever' but the LoC transcript uses 'ever'.

Tedmarynicz (talk) 11:52, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Format problem
The diamondsuit characters appear to be intended as a more attractive alternative to typographical bullets:
 * ♦ Portions of this poem appear on many headstones in Arlington National Cemetery.
 * ♦ Today it serves as the official poem of the RCAF and RAF and it is required to be recited by memory by first-year cadets at the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) where it is also depicted in its Field House.
 * Portions of this poem appear on many headstones in Arlington National Cemetery.
 * Today it serves as the official poem of the RCAF and RAF and it is required to be recited by memory by first-year cadets at the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) where it is also depicted in its Field House.
 * Portions of this poem appear on many headstones in Arlington National Cemetery.
 * Today it serves as the official poem of the RCAF and RAF and it is required to be recited by memory by first-year cadets at the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) where it is also depicted in its Field House.

But notice a formatting difference: when standard bullets are used, the whole paragraph within the scope of a bullet gets properly indented, whereas the diamondsuit characters fail to do that. Michael Hardy (talk) 22:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The Poem
Lately there have been some changes to the wording of High Flight. I hope that this will stop. The version that is currently online (as of 3:45 p.m. Monday March 7th 2011) has been very carefully copied from the original letter that included High Flight. This letter is kept at the Library of Congress (LOC). If you have any questions about the letter, please contact me OR feel free to request the scan of the document from the LOC.

A recent change that was made inserted a dash before the last line "- Put out my hand...." I was fairly indignant about it, but went ahead and checked the high-resolution scan. And sure enough... very faintly, there is what can be taken as a dash. So... I'm not going to fight this one, since you can really make a case that there is a dash there.

But any other changes I will fight.

Thanks to all who help keep this page clean and accurate! — Preceding unsigned comment added by RJHaas (talk • contribs) 20:50, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

formatting
"Sources of inspiration", "Uses of the poem", "Musical adaptations" and "Other uses in media" are all sections discussing the poem "High Flight", which has it's own section. Therefore, all these sections should be subsections - all under the "High Flight" section. Basic formatting - has nothing to do with content. - the WOLF  child  04:52, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

2014 published biography
A new book titled ‘High Flight’ (ISBN 9780957116368) was published in 2014 by Fighting High Publishing, written by the British author Roger Cole. It is a seminal work about this exceptional young man and it provides new information and insight into his brief but extraordinary life.

Researched in the UK where the author met and interviewed men and women, for the first time, that knew John and lived or worked alongside him. The author details aspects of John’s life not previously known about or described and  through his researches has been able to provide insights into how John came to establish his name in the history of aviation. Living in the village where John was billeted during his last months in England the author has been able to draw on previously unpublished accounts of John’s experiences flying from Wellingore airfield with the Royal Canadian Air Force and give details about the men and women John met and worked with.

The book contains an Introduction written especially by John’s brother Hugh and includes previously unpublished poems and a selection of unique photographs. It provides a unique description of John’s life by bringing together carefully chosen features of the events which have made him such an important name in the history of aviation.

86.161.204.124 (talk) 08:45, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Other use in the media
In the television series "Cannon" (1971-1976), season 2, episode 5, (episode aired 11 October 1972) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0536023/?ref_=tt_ep_nx, especially the note in the trivia section, that "Frank Cannon" (William Conrad) recites the sonnet to a glider pilot whilst attempting to convince her to give herself up to the police.Jim P. (talk) 01:08, 6 May 2018 (UTC)