Talk:John Gray (American author)

Removed some
Removed some apparent copyvio (compare here).

Did John Gray divorce many times?
Another relationship book author pointed in his book, John Gray had divorced many times. Is it true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynxlea (talk • contribs) 13:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, John has only been married twice, divorced once. His one divorce is from his once co-relationship-expert, Barbara de Angelis. Ms. de Angelis has been married 5 times, which could be seen as making her much more experienced in relationships that John. Terraflora (talk) 15:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
John Gray (Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus) → John Gray (U.S. author) Much better title. --Hottentot


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~ 


 * Support. A much simpler name. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 06:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Even if another JG exists who is a US author, I think this one's well enough known to be the primary "John Gray (U.S. author)". --Calair 23:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Jonathunder 02:36, 2005 September 10 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 07:31, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion
'''His divorce was years before he became a relationship expert. The fact that he went through such pain may have been what caused him to learn so much.'''

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Also-- if the school where he got his PHD was criticised-- is that really his fault?

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Add any additional comments

There's nothing here about him but criticism. I mean it's nice to know that his Ph.D. has come under fire and that despite dispensing relationship advice he got divorced, but that doesn't tell us much about the person.

It's like the mass of negative information about Monty Roberts. I'm tempted to cut and paste the bulk of this article onto the talk page and leave a stub. Uncle Ed 17:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

This article is a silly ad hominem attack. Gray's books may or may not be pop-psychology bunk, but this stuff about his marital history and professional credentials is almost irrelevant. Only two sentences summarizing his work?


 * I'm not convinced the marital stuff is relevant, but his professional credentials certainly are. Gray is in the business of dispensing psychological advice, and in the course of that business he has repeatedly chosen to stand on his doctorate. His website offers "relationship advice from Dr John Gray". His books credit him as "John Gray, Ph.D". In an ideal world, maybe he would be judged solely on the quality of his ideas; in the real world, many people are more willing to believe an idea when it comes from somebody with a professional qualification. --Calair 23:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Dilbert comicstrip had a joke about a guy who would start a TV show and call himself a doctor - albeit he was not - because then he could call people stupid and they would thank him for it. Patchouli 02:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Crummy article
The John Gray page is long on critical REMARKS but short on substance. It says hardly anything about his teachings - other than "men differ from women". And the criticism is, "That's a simplistic stereotype." --Uncle Ed 14:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's some more information about his teachings at Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus - it's not particularly well-written, but it certainly has more detail about Gray's ideas than this article does. Likewise, it expands on the criticisms of those ideas.


 * Duplicating that discussion doesn't seem like a useful thing to do, but what about merging the two pages? If he'd written a wide range of unrelated books it'd make sense to discuss each of them separately, but the ideas presented in 'Mars and Venus' are at the heart of just about everything Gray's done since; I think it makes more sense to discuss them here, as a body of work, than have an individual page for each book.


 * The criticism of his ideas belongs in the same place as discussion of those ideas, whether that's in the Mars & Venus article or here. Material about his qualifications should be in this article. --Calair 22:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I vote to merge Mars & Venus into John Gray. This combined article could begin with his bio, the controversy over his degree, and then launch into his views and critical respons:
 * 1) Gray's background
 * 2) Gray and his PhD
 * 3) Gray's psychological views about gender differences
 * 4) Critical respones to Gray's views

Good outline? --Uncle Ed 01:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Works for me. --Calair 03:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Birth
In what year was John Gray born?Patchouli 02:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The article says 1951. --Calair 05:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Name on Identification Card
This John Gray his pseudonym?Patchouli 22:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, John Gray is his real name. He goes by Johnny Gray in real life, or that's what the family calls him. I met him at a family reunion a few years ago. One of our great aunts was at the time very old and had a lot of health issues (she has since passed away), and he got everyone's attention in the family so that he could do some kind of eastern magic on this aunt. This was in Sedona, where there are supposedly "lane lines" of energy coming together. He was wearing a very unattractive V-neck shirt which showed his chest hair at the time--I remember it distinctly. He has scraggly hair, and one of the Grays there, this guy with long black hair who was supposedly one of our cousins, lamented to my prepubescent sister that "there are so many hot girls here! Too bad I'm related to them all!" I hope someone found this useful or entertaining.

Nonetheless, some of his writing is ingeniously valid! Like the point system.

Do people with low self-esteem feel a need to drag down successful people? I think the answer is yes...

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

CPU Accreditation
CPU was never accredited. At one time it held California approval but was never accredited. I propose changing the parenthetical comment, (although it is not clear whether these degrees were ever accredited) to (approved in California by the CPPVE but always unaccredited). Bill Huffman 19:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok.--72.202.129.98 08:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that I reverted a recent change (by an anon) calling CPU a diploma. I contend that the term diploma mill evokes an pov that is not neutral and open to interpretation. For example, to many diploma mill indicates an illegal institution. Prior to 1997 CPU was not an illegal institution. Regards, Bill Huffman 05:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, it's not encyclopaedic language and shouldn't be used unless in the context of a properly-attributed quote (as is done later in the article).


 * On the other hand, I don't think it's appropriate to include the PhD in the introduction without some acknowledgement that its worth is questionable - CPU was legal at the time but not accredited, and as the quote from Rubin shows it already had a bad name when Gray got his PhD. IMHO, better just to postpone the issue altogether until later in the article where it can be properly addressed. --Calair 12:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Nice edit. Thanks, Bill Huffman 20:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Columbia Pacific University (CPU): A Victim of Miscarriage of Justice and Sensationalist Media
Dirty Politics and Libelous Announcements

Irresponsible and libelous media announcements have defamed Columbia Pacific University (CPU) as a diploma mill. In reality CPU was supervised and approved by the California State Department of Education. Effective 1986-1989, California documents confirm that CPU's full institutional approval was the equivalent of regional accreditation,. Thus, CPU was a California State Accredited University. CPU degrees are legal and valid! California newspapers, such as the Point Reyes Light and the Union Tribune in San Diego published misinforming articles about CPU but failed to set the record straight when I submitted to the editors letters requesting appropriate corrections.

The closing of CPU resulted not from valid educational considerations but from the dirty politics of higher education in California. Mind you, the judicial system is often not about truth and justice but about power and money. Miscarriage of justice is a common phenomenon. CPU was closed on the basis of a fabricated report full of factual errors and insubstantial allegations. For example, it absurdly claimed that Harvard-trained psychiatrist Dr. Richard Crews was unfit to serve as the President of CPU because he was an MD and not a PhD. Another preposterous and prejudiced assertion was directed against the black deans of CPU holding PhDs from well-known European universities. The deans in question were Dr. Ketsela, graduate of the University of Wales, and Dr. Tolossa, graduate of the University of Bremen,. The report falsely alleged that these European universities are unaccredited. There were over 80 errors of fact in the report rendering it completely worthless.

Error of Fact Number 28: The Spanish Dissertation

Error of Fact Number 28, for example, has become quite famous and mentioned in a variety of media articles. It concerns a Spanish dissertation that allegedly was approved by faculty who did not speak Spanish. In reality, the CPU faculty mentor who supervised the dissertation worked with the student in Spanish and the doctoral thesis provided Table of Contents, Summary and additional information in English. Moreover, CPU policy changed in early 1995, so that dissertations could be submitted only in English. Documented refutation of all the false claims against CPU has been published on line in "The Chronicles of Columbia Pacific University",. Please, note that CPU graduates earned their degrees through competency and hard work. Thousands of them teach at accredited schools or work in research, civil service, business and industry. The defamation of the good name of CPU as a pioneer of distance education is unfair and unacceptable. Today CPU is a federally recognized non-profit educational institution,.

Pluralistic Education is a Necessity

I believe that Pluralistic Education advances the Public Good and therefore it is not only a Democratic Right but also a Necessity. We live in the electronic age that can provide the technology for the development of an information society in which education becomes accessible to broad segments of humankind. The rise of cybernetic culture in the global village can bring distance learning even to the most remote areas of the world. It helps education to be more democratic. Knowledge is power. Education empowers people to become an integral part of a well-informed citizenry, enabling them to create a constructive culture of social and political democracy. Today virtual schools allow the realization of the once-utopic vision of education for all. Unfortunately, the development of virtual schools is also accompanied by the proliferation of Diploma Mills, bogus universities that are in the business of selling fake academic degrees. The infestation of the academic world with diploma mills is accompanied by the problem of how to separate the wheat from the chaff, the wide-spread inability of the public to differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate educational institutions. Authoritarian Measures Suffocate Creativity It was Albert Einstein who stressed that imagination is more important than knowledge and that the outstanding accomplishments of the intellect are based on the freedom of thought. In Ideas and Opinions (1954) he points out that the development of science and of the creative activities of the spirit require inner freedom, "the independence of thought from the restrictions of authoritarian and social prejudices as well as from unphilosophical routinizing and habit in general" (p. 42). And he adds: Schools might play constructive or destructive roles. They may favour inward freedom and encourage independent thought but they may also interfere and repress them through authoritarian measures. Another leading thinker, Nicholas Negroponte, Professor of Media Technology at MIT, maintains that bureaucratic organizations are the enemies of creative environments. In "Where Do New Ideas Come From?" (Wire, 4.01), he observes that governments and corporations are sterile leagues that stifle imagination and creativity. This is a pity, he says, because we need innovative schools to develop, foster and nurture new ideas for human progress. Prof. Negroponte views the university as an unsettled habitat with undefined edges accommodating academics as well as people "who don't fit traditional scholarship" because new ideas come from a muddled creative environment.

A CPU Connection

Allow me please to add a note about my affiliation with CPU. After graduating from high school in Hungary, I attended for two years the University of Szeged. I hold a BA and a Teacher's Certificate from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and a Master's (History and Art History) from Concordia University in Montreal ( Canada). I wrote my thesis on Georg Lukacs: Aesthetics and History. I completed all my doctoral course requirements at Concordia, did additional work at Columbia Pacific University and wrote my dissertation on The Interface Dynamics of Art and Science (1986). In the process of researching my doctoral thesis I collaborated with a group of renowned scientists and scholars, including P.R. Halmos (Editor of the American Mathematical Monthly), Sir Nevill Mott (Nobel Laureate in Physics) and John Kemeny (Dartmouth College President). Under the title, The Brush and the Compass, the dissertation was published in 1988 by University Press of America, an umbrella academic clearing house of Harvard, Columbia, Stanford and others. The book has been internationally acclaimed and also taught in anthropology, art and science and other interdisciplinary courses. I am also the author of A History of Architecture (Jerusalem: R. Mass, 1972), as well as of other critically acclaimed books, and have published numerous scholarly papers in such peer-reviewed journals as Leonardo, Orbiter, Ylem, Pulsar, Contemporary Philosophy, Q.A.M.T. and Lo Straniero.

Paul Hartal 04:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Paul, I thank you for all the information on CPU. I have heard some of the details before but I find it personally interesting to learn more. There were/are a number of California approved schools that in my personal opinion should have been closed down rather than CPU. In my mind this whole sad story is indicative of the extra dangers that come with unaccredited schools. Thank you again, Bill Huffman 08:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bill,

I appreciate your response. Thank you.

Paul Hartal 02:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Alternattive Institutions Sometimes get slammed by the accreditation system just for being a bit alternative-- many famous and now accredited schools like Naropa and Evergreen University had such problems...

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Gray's PhD: Who Cares?
Why is everyone so ticked that this man doesn't have a fancy enough Ph.D.? Even if the CPU doctorate is bogus, many best-selling authors only have B.A.s. Obviously, Gray is not an expert; that should be noted in the wiki article, as it is, voluminously!. However, despite his book's shoddy methodology, it did sell over a million copies, and has positively influenced lives. Shouldn't that be as noteworthy in the article as the potshots everyone's taking at his credibility? M. Frederick 03:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that it would be a good idea to expand on the article in some of the ways that you suggest. The number of books that he sold would improve the article significantly, in my opinion. Positively influencing lives would also be good if you could find such a statment from a reliable source. I do think that his academic credentials are also relevant to the article. I agree with you though some positive balance would improve the article greatly. Bill Huffman 06:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

@M. Frederick - The fact that the book sold a million copies is a sham. Gray's work was an intellectual ripoff of Deborah Tannen and her colleages work. He positvely influenced people's lives by stealing other people's work. Therefore, all the shots taken at Gray are completely acceptable and valid. -cablex1814

I would not have bought his first and second books, I do not believe, had I not believed I was getting my information from a highly learned individual. The converse is likewise valid, why would he post such credentials if he knew they were subject to so much contest??? Because he knew it would sell books. I feel cheated by John Gray, and there's no recourse for me to get any compensation for the trickery I fell victim to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.9.49 (talk) 18:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Unaccredited Doctorate Undue Weight
John Gray has a Ph.D. from an unaccredited school that was closed down by the state of California. That is different from saying he doesn't have a Ph.D.. To state such is unencyclopedic, a violation of wp:npov since it is not stated in a neutral tone, a violation of wp:blp, and gives undue weight to the fact which is already covered elsewhere in detail in this very small article. All my opinion, of course, but if you disagree then please let's discuss it here and perhaps I'll change my mind. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Section Removed
I have removed this section which is poorly sourced and has no reason to be in the article. At the time Gray received his degree CPU was a valid University that issued valid degrees. The fact that the University was later discredited and closed down is irrelevant to the article subject.--—Kbob • Talk  • 16:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He was featured prominently in Columbia Pacific's marketing literature in the 1990s prior to its subsequent court-ordered shutdown in 2000.


 * Thank you for the improvments to the article. TallMagic (talk) 17:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Education
I realize that Gray's education credentials are a bit unclear but we should try to be as accurate as possible. Here's what the sources actually say: --—Kbob • Talk  • 22:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC) Editors note: I struck the above quote as it did not jive with the source I cited which was a repeat of the LA Times citation.--—Kbob • Talk  • 21:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * " Mr. Gray got a couple of degrees from the Maharishi International University in Iowa, followed by a doctorate in psychology from an unaccredited school, Columbia Pacific University"
 * "He had previously boasted of Bachelor's and Master's degrees from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland. His assistant explained to CultNews that his degrees came from the American branch of the university, which is located in Iowa" NOTE: this is a 'reprint' of a NY Post article which appears on the Rick Ross site. Isn't there a guideline about these kinds of sources? Can we get the original?
 * "His bachelor's and master's degrees in Eastern philosophy are from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland." |title=


 * Right. So how do we get from there to:
 * He received a "bachelor's and master's degree in Eastern Philosophy from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland" of from the its American branch in Iowa. 
 * None of the sources say he received degrees from both institutions, or that MIU was a branch of MERU [see below].   Will Beback    talk    23:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Gray picked up a bachelor's and a master's degree in Eastern philosophy from the Maharishi International University.
 * A global ambassador to the sexes; [FINAL Edition] Karen S. Peterson. USA TODAY (pre-1997 Fulltext). McLean, Va.: Mar 28, 1994. pg. 01.D
 * Book critics also don't trust what they consider Gray's flimsy credentials (bachelor's and master's degrees from Maharishi International University and a Ph.D. through a correspondence course with Columbia Pacific University).
 * The gender game/ Author John Gray finds success with a message to men and women: Can't we all get along? Deb Acord, Gazette Telegraph. Colorado Springs Gazette - Telegraph. Colorado Springs, Colo.: Nov 15, 1994. pg. D.1
 * Gray spent nine years as a celibate monk with the Maharishi, earning bachelor's and master's degrees from Maharishi International University. 
 * Charismatic author fuels interest in; [Final Edition] Mitchell Landsberg. Las Vegas Review - Journal. Las Vegas, Nev.: Oct 8, 1995. pg. 8.D
 * He earned bachelor's and master's degrees from Maharishi International University.
 * WATER AND HEALING ARE THE LATEST PASSIONS OF MARS-VENUS GURU; [FIVE STAR LIFT Edition] John M. McGuire Of the Post-Dispatch. St. Louis Post - Dispatch. St. Louis, Mo.: Aug 20, 2000. pg. E.1
 * ''. He also has a BA and an MA in "creative intelligence" from International University run by the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
 * Men may be from Mars, but hard: to say what planet this guy's from Jan Wong. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 9, 2002. pg. F.2
 * A child of two Stanford graduates and one of seven children, he was a monk for nine years after receiving a master's degree in the "science of creative intelligence" at Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa. 
 * Mars and Venus at work ; Critics aim to bring Gray back down to Earth Lauren Murphy, THE WASHINGTON TIMES. Washington Times. Washington, D.C.: Feb 14, 2002. pg. A.02
 * The fifth of seven children born to a Texan oilman and a stay-at-home mother, Mr. Gray got a couple of degrees from the Maharishi International University in Iowa, followed by a doctorate in psychology from an unaccredited school, Columbia Pacific University.
 * Looking to God for relationship advice Sarah Hampson. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 4, 2008. pg. L.1
 *  His bachelor's and master's degrees in Eastern philosophy are from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland. 
 * Mars, Venus . . . and Cupid Men and women seem to be from different planets. John Gray's message: Come back to Earth and deal with it.; [Home Edition] ABIGAIL GOLDMAN. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1994. pg. 1
 * He'd also graduated with a BA and MA in creative intelligence from the Maharishi European Research University.
 * Writer on another planet; [2 Edition] SWAIN, Pauline. Dominion. Wellington, New Zealand: Jun 24, 1996. pg. 11
 * He has bachelor's and master's degrees in creative intelligence from the Maharishi European Research University and a doctorate in psychology and human sexuality by correspondence from Columbia Pacific University in San Rafael, Calif.
 * LOST IN SPACE AUTHOR ARGUES MEN, WOMEN STILL NO CLOSER THAN MARS, VENUS; [Home Final Edition] Mary Bridgman Dispatch Accent Reporter. Columbus Dispatch. Columbus, Ohio: Oct 14, 1996. pg. 01.B
 * PERHAPS Mr Gray's unique approach owes something to his time with the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland, where he was, according to an article in Newsweek, secretary to the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
 * Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, suckers are from Earth ... The latest heavily hyped guide to the secret of success is heading our way from California. MELANIE McDONAGH fears this marks another advance in the Americanisation of British culture; [C Edition] Melanie Mcdonagh. Evening Standard. London (UK): Mar 26, 1999. pg. 30
 * There are discrepancies about Gray's other educational claims as well. He had previously boasted of Bachelor's and Master's degrees from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland. His assistant explained to CultNews that his degrees came from the American branch of the university, which is located in Iowa. A call to both the school's registrar and its alumi association yielded no proof he ever attended.
 * WRITER'S EDUCATION FROM MARS New York Post. New York, N.Y.: Nov 13, 2003. pg. 012
 * I think it's best to cover the discrepancy by simply saying he received his degrees from one or the other institution. to say he received the degrees from both would be an unsupported assumption.   Will Beback    talk    23:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the sources Will. You are correct in saying that a)many sources cite MUM b)that there are others that cite MERU and c)only one source makes the connection between MERU and Iowa which may or may not refer to MUM. I also agree that to say they came from both is an unsupported assumption. However, doesn't the reader deserve to know about the conflicting reports. Shouldn't we say something to that effect? Such as: "Sources vary as to whether his bachelor's and master's degrees were received from MERU in Switzerland or MUM in Iowa". --—Kbob • Talk  • 21:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree entirely that we should report the different versions, which is what I'd intended originally. The text you propose is even better. The only change I'd make is to call it MIU rather than MUM.   Will Beback    talk    21:58, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Good, I see you have also included this point on the MUM Alumni section. Good work.--—Kbob • Talk  • 20:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Bernstein
I removed the following text recently added to the article because it was not directly about Gray.
 * "On March 22, 2011 the CEO of Mars Venus Coaching Richard Bernstein was arrested for Theft and Operating without a Securities License. http://www.mynews3.com/category.php?id=5404&n=5037 http://www.bluemaumau.org/ceo_bernstein_mars_venus_coaching_faces_felony_charges" --BwB (talk) 16:30, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

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NPOV
This article is a mess. The source cited for his degrees and certifications...is a source which explicitly states those claims are inaccurate. Another source clearly contesting his claims has also been cited to support those same claims.

Basically all of the information about him personally is primary, whether it be from his website, associated websites, or interviews. Most of the other sources are either unreliable, opinion pieces, or dead links and unrecoverable. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 01:18, 28 September 2023 (UTC)