Talk:John Hawkins (naval commander)

Comment
This article doesn't make any sense. There are incomplete sentences... and what, pray tell, is a "rocket shop?" It definitely needs to be reworked. Maybe give it stub status? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.64.208 (talk) 07:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Masq. Royalist for removing some wierdness ("rocket shop"). I have removed more ("fluff from his brother's mouth"?) and generally bulked up and clarified, as well as paring down the waffle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.168.166 (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Aquines?
Is this the same John Hawkins the Pirate that was known in the Canary Islands as Aquines? -- Asterion talk 20:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a spelling by which the Spanish referred to Hawkins. Olorin3k (talk) 05:41, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Who died first, Drake or Hawkins?
There's some debate about the date of Drake's death, 1595 or 1596. It would help if we knew which of Drake or Hawkins died first. Assuming Hawkins's date 12 November 1595 is correct, it's more likely that Drake died 2 months later (January 1596) than 10 months earlier (January 1595). But we can't proceed on the basis of one person's hunch. Can anyone confirm this? -- JackofOz (talk) 00:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Hawkins die first in front of Fort of San Felipe del Morro, in San Juan de Puerto Rico, with a spanish cannonball inside him, --79.145.155.158 (talk) 02:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Cite source please.Parkwells (talk) 14:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Hawkins certainly died first (Monday, 11 November, 1595), possibly from dysentery or some other illness, but certainly not in battle. Drake died 28 January 1596, almost certainly from dysentery --Gyles (talk) 14:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Where is the evidence to support the claim that Sir John Hawkins is the great-great grandfather of King James?
After looking at King James I of England's genealogy on his article, I find no evidence to support this claim. Does anyone know where this originates???Leehawkins (talk) 20:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * James's ancestors were all Scottish nobles. It's pure nonsense, just as the preceding stuff about John Hopkins. I'll go ahead and remove it. --Lanfranc (talk) 17:50, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Hawkins was definitely not a great-great grandfather of King James; James was born in 1566 and Hawkins in 1532. However, he was probably the eight great grandson of Edward I of England via his sixth great grandfather Hugh de Courtney, 10th Earl of Devon, and his great-great grandmother, Florence Courtney, who married his great-great grandfather, a Trelawny. --Gyles (talk) 14:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Heraldry, job titles, sibling, John Dee
I have added the actual artwork from the College of Arms to the article to replace the single inaccurate image of the shield.

I am correcting his job title from controller to comptroller. That's what he was referred to at the time, the job title still exists, and although functionally it is identical to controller the term comptroller applies to the position in not-for-profit and governmental roles.

I have removed reference to a 'Sir Riccio' being his brother as it is entirely without foundation, even if there was ever such a person which I doubt, and added reference to his real brother.

I have removed "he was taught in the system of mathematics of the mathematician and mystic, Dr. John Dee". There is no evidence that he had any mathematical education other than suited to a navigator and accountant, and the only record of a meeting was when John was about 49.

I also clarified how prominent his family was.

--Gyles (talk) 13:41, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

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Lok
Lok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.216.95.91 (talk) 17:14, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Towerson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.216.95.91 (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Lok and Towerson are mentioned in the article under "Early years". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:BB3D:AD00:798A:DA02:3E4B:54C4 (talk) 13:52, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Lead and cleanup.
if you peeps are interested, I think this article might need similar cleanup like Colston. Govvy (talk) 08:42, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * IN what way, it seems to be stable?Slatersteven (talk) 09:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Lead sentence seems a funny order to me, I've been trying to best rewrite that, but keep cancelling. Govvy (talk) 09:33, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If you mean something like shouting "OMG, he was a slave trader" the article does not need a cleanup. The article makes this clear, but unlike Edward Colston he was also a noted naval commander in the reign of Queen Elizabeth I.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 09:37, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the irony! I really thought certain elements seemed a bit back to front. Also, citation cleanup, etc. Govvy (talk) 09:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , be careful you are not writing duff information that it is not sourced further down. The lead should only contain sourced information that has an inline cite further down in the body.  We do not cite in the lead.  I've removed all unsourced information - as should have happened at the time it was added - and rearranged to lead to include the only cited information we have.   Cassianto Talk  10:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

regarding this edit: I really can't see why this has been removed, as it shows that he has fallen out of favour despite being celebrated as one of Plymouth's most famous sons for many years. This is steamroller editing as it should be discussed.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 09:50, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , what's to discuss? It's all unsourced information.  This should've been (and would've been, had I of been watching it) reverted on sight as there were no accompanying citations - in fact, some verification tags were nearly 10-years-old. With regards to Sir John Hawkins Square, the fact this Square was renamed by a Council 425 years after his death, is not relevant to Hawkins himself. It should not be in this article, but instead in an article about Sir John Hawkins Square.   Cassianto Talk  09:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Cassianto, I was reading some of the citations to know what I can use for content, then you removed a fair chunk! That's okay know, but you have pretty much said the type of concerns I had on the article. Govvy (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

You appear to be saying that the renaming of Sir John Hawkins Square in Plymouth has WP:TOPIC problems. I can't see this and it is very much notable and relevant that he has fallen out of favour in Plymouth. As for removing the uncited material, there is some logic in this, but it might be better to look for cites.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me)
 * Indeed I am; if he has fallen out of favour with those wanting to eradicate and rewrite history, then it should be said (sourced, of course), but to be as specific as this is not for this page. It could be said that he was linked to the slave trade and this has been brought ever more into the public understanding because of the George Floyd killing in America; but when we start using examples of this, such as the renaming of the square, where do we draw the line? It would be far more beneficial for an article to be created for the square and for it to be included there.  Over on the Edward Colston article, it was decided that the criminal damage of the statue was to be split off and put on a separate article about the statue. That makes sense, as does this, for the same reasons.   Cassianto Talk  10:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sir John Hawkins Square now has its own article, which was created on 11 June 2020. The square will be renamed after Jack Leslie (English footballer) Is it OK to give this as a see also?-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 11:16, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , much better. I'll take a look at the Hawkins article a bit later.   Cassianto Talk  13:50, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Context and modern day considerations
John Hawkins was a naval commander who trafficked human beings for the purpose of profits, as was the case for all slave traders. The significance of Hawkins' role as one of the earliest documented persons to have dealt in human trade involving Africa which ultimately reached the scale of over 12 million people being abducted for forced labor from one continent (Africa) as trade merchandise is quintessential world history. This is even more critically important in the context of what is happening in the world today in which world citizens are seeking an understanding of contemporary civil and human rights issues -- specifically those rooted in anti-Black racism. To be anti-Black is to be anti-African as Africa is the homeland of Black people, as well as the cradle of humanity. Hawkins contributed to the earliest foundations of systemic prejudice against Black and African people by stealing them and selling these humans for private profit and nation building for Europe and the Americas. Further, by referring to Africans as slaves instead of "enslaved", the Editor perpetuates the stereotypes upon the foundation that Hawkins laid. The omission of the significance of Hawkins role in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade, and its role in modern events, is improper and intellectually irresponsible. Hawkins actions spurred and gave rise to one of the most consequential forced movements of humans in history. Hawkins and his role in history contextualize our modern day social and economic condition. ASASEYEDURU (talk) 11:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The article makes clear that he was one of the pioneering English slave traders. He was also one of the most important naval commanders in the reign of Queen Elizabeth I.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 12:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, what is it we do not say?Slatersteven (talk) 13:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

John Hawkins was a crypto-Jew
From Jewish sources. Wondering if it should be byworded in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.177.112 (talk) 08:15, 9 February 2021 (UTC)


 * This looks WP:FRINGE. What is the sourcing for this?-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 08:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Andrew Hawkins
Re this edit: It is fair enough to say that Andrew Hawkins' claim to be a descendent of Sir John Hawkins is at best anecdotal, and lacking in firm evidence. This BBC source confirms it. However, I am worried about labouring the point and ending up with WP:BLP problems. What do others think?  ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 21:15, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Renaming to Justice Square
This square is going to be renamed to Justice Square according to the BBC website here. Why are you wanting to revert to the old information? Desertarun (talk) 19:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)