Talk:John Kerry/Archive 1

Quotes
I'm not sure about having the "Quotes" section. There's been similar issues in George W. Bush and John Ashcroft, and honestly I feel like (given the large number of potential quotes), any selection we make will be accused of bias. I'm taking it out unless someone objects. Meelar 04:55, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * No objection to removal of the quotes on Iraq war. But it would be nice to mention something about Kerry's position on Iraq -- since (a) he's currently the leading Dem. candidate and (b) Iraq has been the key political issue between Dem. & Rep. for the last 6 to 9 months!


 * BTW, I added a pro-Kerry and anti-Kerry quote before I read this talk page or viewed the page history. --Uncle Ed 18:05, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Birthdate
Most online sources report John Forbes Kerry's birth in Colorado 12/11/43. A source believed to be reputable which received children's birth information (in order) from Richard Kerry reports the entries of his children as such:


 * Margery A. Kerry, b. 11/11/1941
 * Diana Kerry, b. 04/16/1947
 * Cameron F. Kerry, b. 09/06/1950
 * John Forbes Kerry, b. 01/01/1943

Conclusion: this source is almost definitely incorrect, first w/regard to date, second w/regard to sequence of children's births. Still, it might be prudent for someone to double check.

Skull and Bones
I don't know enough about Kerry: is he publically admitting membership in Skull and Bones? If so, should it be here? I don't know....it feels a little like a smear to me, but I'll admit I don't know anything like enough about it. Just pondering...Jwrosenzweig 20:27, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

His membership is common knowledge. Why is it a smear? It's not a negative organization; elitist perhaps, but nothing that shouldn't be included here. Moncrief 9 Feb 2004


 * He has admitted it himself. I read an interview today in which a reporter asked him if the fact that he was in skull and bones would make a difference and Kerry said "very little" and smiles uneasily. Bush was a member too btw. Mrdice 20:55, 2004 Feb 9 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, well, I'll trust you. :) I can't say I really like "common knowledge" as an answer, but I know that's the basis for a lot of what we do here.

''It's simple to verify these things. People unable to do so have no business editing enclopedias. "common knowledge" is indistinguishable from rumor. Any claim should be substantiable via authoritative sources.''

Re: smear, I don't think you'd dispute with me that, for many Americans, the image of the S&B society is that they are up to no good....perhaps involved in some strange dark rituals.

''So what? By the same argument, the fact that someone was a Nazi, Communist, or Jew should be suppressed because many people have negative views of those.''

I personally doubt the veracity of these claims, but I would want to be fair to Kerry's reputation.

By suppressing facts about him?

If it was common knowledge that Abraham Lincoln was a Freemason, I still don't think I'd mention it

Then stay away from editing encyclopedias.

(except in a truly exhaustive article....which John Kerry has yet to become). But I'm over-sensitive, and I'm willing to accept your point. Thanks for responding. Jwrosenzweig 20:38, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here are 57 articles that mention John Kerry's membership in Skull and Bones: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=John+Kerry+Skull+and+Bones&sa=N&tab=wn
 * Heh, sorry to make you go to the trouble! I believed you on the common knowledge thing.  I do appreciate your taking the time though, and am sorry to have caused inconvenience. Jwrosenzweig 20:45, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Negative Views of Kerry
[saving this until Positive Views of Kerry can be written]

On the other hand, the Associated Press reports that Kerry made efforts to keep loopholes for special interests. One allowed American International Group to profit from liability insurance coverage it provided for the "Big Dig" project in Boston. AIG later provided the funds for Kerry's trip to Vermont and donated $30,000 (or more) to a group used to set up Kerry's presidential campaign (Company executives also donated $18,000 to his campaigns). Charles Lewis, head of the Center for Public Integrity, stated that "the idea that Kerry has not helped or benefited from a specific special interest, which he has said, is utterly absurd". 

Coupled with this, Republican opponents such as Pat Buchanan criticize Kerry as:


 * ...a Massachusetts liberal who voted against the Defense of Marriage Act, backs civil unions for homosexuals, voted to defend the infanticide known as partial-birth abortion and wants to raise the federal income taxes that George Bush lowered. [ http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36888 ]

Kerry has been criticized by some in the primary race (especially Howard Dean) for his position on the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Kerry voted for the resolution in the Senate that authorized President George W. Bush to go to war; however, he has since become a fierce critic of the war effort, attacking what he calls poor planning and poor diplomacy on Bush's part.

Positive Views

 * [reinserting into article] ... Jengod (1st pls sign), there is not a need for take out the info from the article. ALL views should be in the article ... ADD the positive (and the negative) as they come. JDR [PS. Why did you take out the position quote from his website? [I didn't put it in (nor the republican view) .... though I did input the Charles Lewis (Center for Public Integrity) and Associated Press part (which are BOTH neutral parties)].

National economy

 * Kerry has as a priority the status of the middle class and hard working families. He has pledged to bring back the millions of jobs that have been lost.


 * 1) What is the "status" of middle class and working people, and what does it mean to make these a "priority"?
 * 2) Which millions of jobs were lost, and when? (Is he blaming the post-Clinton recession on Bush?) Is he saying he'll get people working at their old companies, or get them new jobs, or what?

Please understand: I'm not trying to be a partisan here. I'm not trying to start a debate. I just want to know what the text is supposed to mean so we can copy-edit it and put it right back.

If we can't turn the above two sentences into plain English, maybe a quote from Kerry or his website would be better. Like:

Regarding the US economy, Kerry said, "My priority is the status of the middle class and hard working families. I pledeg to bring back the millions of jobs that have been lost." Then the text could stand as itself. --Uncle Ed 18:58, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here's a text markup of a replacement ...


 * Kerry wants to enforce trade laws for a level playing field in the global economy. Kerry believes in a more efficient and smaller government; he has pledged to control spending by the government. Kerry advocates research and development (R&D) and giving industrial upgrade tax breaks. Kerry has proposed a "State Tax Relief and Education Fund" to help states improve the workforce.


 * Kerry advocates manufacturer tax incentives to bolster goods production and create jobs in the United States. Kerry proposes strengthening the enforcement by the Securities and Exchange Commission for restoring investor confidence and stopping oversea banking by corporations (which is done to avoid taxes). Kerry plans to implement the McCain-Kerry commission on corporate welfare to undermine the special interest groups.


 * Regarding the US economy, Kerry has stated it is his priority to foster the status of the middle class and hard working families. Kerry supports increasing the minimum wage and indexing it to inflation. Kerry has pledged to bring back the millions of jobs that have been lost. Kerry believes in expanding opportunities for women and making "equal pay for equal work". Kerry has proposed more tax breaks to the middle class with new tax credits on health care and college tuition. Kerry desires protecting the increases in the child tax credit and keeping the reduced marriage penalty. Kerry has also proposed a "College Opportunity Tax Credit".

Sincerely, JDR 20:13, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Kennedy vs. Kerry
Was his mother's name really Rosemary Forbes Kennedy or is this someone's freudian slip?


 * She was Rosemary Forbes. Her married name would be Rosemary Forbes Kerry.  Somebody's Freudian slip (already corrected it)

Drudge
Should this article discuss a completely uncorroborated rumor, like this Drudge allegation? john 03:13, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * How about instead of repeating the rumor and innuendo we leave it to the simple, incontrovertible facts: "On February 12, Internet columnist Matt Drudge reported that media outlets may be investigating martial infidelity rumors dating to 2001." and then link to Drudge and let people read for themselves. jengod 06:22, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

''This isn't an article about Matt Drudge. Drudge is just one (very partisan) person who can say anything he wants about anything. Without substantation, it's still no more than repeating his rumor and innuendo.''

That'd be much better. It also should not be its own section, but probably part of the campaign section. I'm still dubious that we should have anything on it until we see if it turns out to be anything (at this point, I don't think we know enough about it for us to know whether it's important enough to be in the article or not), but that would certainly be an improvement. john 06:41, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * There's a good chance I'll be getting to meet him Saturday morning (Nevada caucuses), so I can just ask him then. :-) Stan 07:13, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, that seems like a wise idea. Of course, if Drudge is right, Kerry will be responding to Drudge's allegations tomorrow (on Imus?).  I imagine Imus will ask him about it, at any rate. john 08:16, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * It seems way to early to devote so much space to an unsubstantiated rumor. Wouldn't another approach be to wait and see what happens ?


 * I completely agree. As yet, there is no actual story here. john 22:05, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I have to run, but if we're re-adding, could someone please add Wonkette's scoop? It's at least as legit as stupid drudge. jengod 02:15, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm still not clear on why this rumor is being reported. No Guru 20:47, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Look, I don't like it either, but I'm not going to get into an edit war over it. Maybe it should be moved off this page into it's own page? jengod 20:53, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Kerry in Berlin?
Did Kerry live in Berlin? I have heart something like that. 82.83.0.240 00:11, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Don't know, User:82.83.0.240, but it's quite possible--his father was a diplomat and he spent at least part of his time growing up overseas... jengod 00:32, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

yes, as a child he did. (in then still the western part) 62.134.92.74 00:36, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Silly whitewashing
The material that exists seems to dwell on the insubstantial. While I like the fact that the article is getting some deserved attention, this "he said, she said" treatment is way out of hand. That "views of Kerry section was meaningless, and silly on top.

And instead of using a rather subtantial and meaningful quote, it was removed. No mention of that Senate hearing exists, and only this remains: "In 1978 he cofounded Vietnam Veterans of America. He maintains a lifetime membership in the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) organization."

Views
"views of Kerry"? I find it informative IMO (as o' now, both kinds o' views are there ...) YMMV on that though ... mabey crop it down on both sides (or, what I'd do, is leave it as is) .... " Vietnam Veterans of America"? I would be supportive in expanding his role in the Senate hearings. One part I do like is the "Encounters with President Kennedy".

Letter to his parents/Yale U.
What i think there needs is a copyedit of the "letter to his parents". Wikipedia is not a primary source ... send it to sourceberg. Also, a copyedit is needed on the "Yale University" portion. Way too much there ... wieghs the article down IMO, but YMMV. Sincerely, JDR 16:49, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Copy edited the page and moved the letter to Wikisource. The letter, however, should NOT be copy edited. It is a primary source and should therefore be left exactly as it was written by Kerry. jengod 20:53, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks ... and I agree on the primary source thing (it should be an exact copy of the original; my comment on "copyedit" was to remove it and send it over to SB ... not change it, but that may not have been clear). I liked reading it, but just not here ... did you make a link to it? [i didn't check] ... only other thing (right now) i'd suggest is renaming the military/homeland security/forgien policy to military/forgien policy (HS being a subdiv of those) ... but it's not that big of thing, the article is looking good IMO (but o' course YMMV on that) ... Sincerely, JDR 01:50, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Pix & POV
Chris, sorry to undo your undo of my undo. :) But there have been PLENTY of battles of the POV-ness of pix. Anti-people use ugly pix, pro-people use pretty pix. The verdict on George W. Bush, for example, was to use his official Prez portrait. Warren Christopher has the background of his image blued out because some consider having the US flag in the background to be POV. jengod 02:42, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

Informal image vote

 * Use left:
 * Evercat, Jengod, &mdash;Eloquence, Maximus Rex, Dori, Fuzheado, No Guru, JDR, Anthony DiPierro RickK


 * Use right:
 * ChrisDJackson

Comments:

The right one is ugly. We should use reasonable looking pics for everyone. Evercat 02:50, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * The new right one is even uglier. I wouldn't wish being fotographed from a low angle on Idi Amin. jengod 03:01, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * At the very least, the first, most prominent photo should be the standard shot. You can debate the merits of the "patriotic" photo as a secondary photo, but to be consistent with G.W. Bush's portrait, we should go with the straight shot. Fuzheado

Nice tactic Chris, replace the photo just as you lose the vote. Quit it. Your behaviour is anti-social to say the least. Evercat 03:07, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Organization
You're aware that you've both removed these passages, and they're now not present anywhere in the article? Evercat 02:59, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I would love to restore them, but I figure Chris Jackson will revert, so we ought to talk about it first. jengod 03:02, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * Okay, family and personal stuff from adult life are in "personal life", youth and childhood are at top in "early life." jengod 03:09, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

Go team us!
John Kerry made the "In the News" section on the main page. Yay! jengod 04:15, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

Are we to believe that a Yale graduate would write this: "endless self-distruction." If that's a real mistake, then (sic) should be added, but if it's a typo, someone should edit it (it's a letter, so there's a possibility it's a genuine mistake...). ugen64 23:06, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

A good observation, Ugen. It's hard to say because indeed the Boston Globe's transcript of the handwritten letter reproduces the word as "self-distruction", but when you look at the letter at http://cache.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/images/day1/letter1.jpg you can see that Kerry's distinctive handwriting with its long, narrow letters, could easily make a small e look like a small i. The question is whether the e/i has a dot above it, a fact we cannot determine by viewing the letter online. I agree that Kerry would have known how to spend destruction correctly and that it probably should be (sic)'d. -- Damion

doctored photo
i don't have time to incorporate the info from this news item into this article. could someone please do so. Also, it would be nice maybe to have external links to the images. maybe it deserves its own article? Kingturtle 07:52, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The information has been there for over a day already. -- Damion


 * The link I provided shows the original photos and the doctored photo. It would be nice to make links to them, or to see if we can have them here. Kingturtle 04:33, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Other Skull & Boners
In re: the paragraph: "Other members of Skull and Bones that year were Alan W. Cross, George Clifford Brown, John Bockstoce, Michael Dalby, James Ernest Howard, Ronald Singer, Thomas Vargish, Forrest David Laidley and David Rumsey, who would go on to found the David Rumsey Historical Map Collection."

Couldn't this para be deleted. As shown by the wikification, none of these people are well-known. I think the article is long enough without a laundry list of names.