Talk:John Koukouzeles

Here we go again
I'm not sure why I even start to write on a topic discussed and explained times and times again to nationalist editors. Look, there was no Macedonian political entity up until the XX century; there was no mention of such an ethnicity up to the that time. So how could you claim that the guy was an ethnic (mind you ethnic) Macedonian. Sorry, this is a no do. The encyclopaedia doesn't really care what a couple of hardline nationalists think of him. -- L a v e o l  T 21:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Macedonians in Romania in the 13th century". Facepalm. Some people will never learn. Todor→Bozhinov 22:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The Romanian government themselves state Macedonian migration since the 11th century, same as Russian documents showing Macedonian immigration in Russia in 1763-1765 from "Voprosy istorii" 1988-04-30VPI-No. 004, pages 174-180? I know its hard for you guys to understand with your pre-determined judgements that Macedonians existed, but they were there. Mactruth (talk) 23:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not even commenting on that. We've discussed tons of time the difference between Macedonians and Macedonians. The latter started to self-identify as such much-much later. And this is not the Romanian gov. -- L a v e o l  T 00:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Like I stated, sources are used. I wouldnt consider Robert Elsie nationalistic would you?Mactruth (talk) 23:43, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Exact citation, please. It was the first hit on google books for me as well ;) Wow, but isn't that a book on Albanians? Or it doesn't make a difference, does it? -- L a v e o l  T 00:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Why would people go to another country like Romania and state they were Macedonian when they were really Bulgarian? (maybe they identified as only that) You have many sources Asociatia de Investigatii Media in Balcani, A History of Roumanians by Seton-Watson (notice they states Transylvanian Romanians denoting Romanians from Transylvania, but just Macedonians, not Macedonian Bulgarians), Proetnice - not working anymore, Robert Elsie, an expert on Albania. But your argument is its a book on Albanians? Even though to know Albanian history you have to know Balkan history as well but that is your argument, even though I sourced that Macedonians claim him, and that some authors state he is Macedonian. Mactruth (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Origin
You are too eager to trace the origin of Kokuzeli's mother and not the obvious fact that he was born and grew up in Albania, which in every society would make hime Albanian Byzantine,e.g. a child born from Greek immigrant parents in the USA is considered an american.--Lceliku (talk) 17:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What Albania? At the time, Durrës was Italian-ruled Durazzo, not part of some imaginary medieval Albanian state. According to your bizarre logic, that would make him an Italian, not an Albanian. We know nothing about Kukuzel's origin other than his mother's ethnicity and the strong hints that Polieleion of the Bulgarian Woman gives. Just because the city he was born in is today in Albania has no relation to his ethnicity or self-consciousness. Todor→Bozhinov 15:38, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * May be his mother was a Bulgarian Roma which would make Kukuzeli of Egyptian origin ,if we follow your logic.This would also justify his mother travelling so far from Bulgaria and the lack of the details about his father.--Lceliku (talk) 00:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Roma come from India, not from Egypt. And yes, if his mother was a Bulgarian Roma, he would be of Roma origin. But she wasn't, she was an ethnic Bulgarian.
 * We know nothing about his father because he died at an early age, not because his mother was a Bulgarian Roma whore as you seem to imply. What the hell was that anyway?
 * Have you read up on Bulgarians in Albania? Most of Albania was Bulgarian-inhabited before the modern Albanians descended from the mountains. His mother could have been a Bulgarian from the Second Bulgarian Empire, but more likely she was a local.
 * You seem to have no valid arguments, so I don't think there's a reason to continue this discussion. Todor→Bozhinov 08:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey no more science fiction. At least quote something credible not another Wiki page that you yourself created. There are a lot of uncertified data about Kukuzeli like the time he lived and died. His nationality is claimed from Macedonians, Albanians , Greek and Bulgarians

and as per Angelopoulos the Boulgara is composed by Glykis and not Kukuzeli. I do not want to get into your nationalistic bullshit and I am not a historian byzantologist, so I leave it to you big experts to use all your talent and reinvent the wheel. No one is even sure if he really exists or it is just a legend.--74.59.88.57 (talk) 00:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * About some rants of Durres Italian ruled at the time of Kukuzeli. Durres at that time was under the Angevin Empire. For that matter the Anjou ruled all southern italy, but these ones did not become french because of that. Nor became french the scots, the britts and so on that were under the Anjou.sulmuestalk--Sulmues 20:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There's nothing to discuss here. Albanian authors tend to regard him as an Albanian. A modern concept, not relevant to the article. Nevertheless we have it included as of now. Anything else? Oh, at the time the name of the city (town) was this. We don't need the modern name since he was not born in modern times. -- L a v e o l  T 22:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Durrachium was in Latin and in the XIIIth century it was no longer used. The language used by the court of the Anjous at that time was the Italian (mostly lombard italian), so it should be Durazzo, not Durrachium. I will make a very small change and I hope you won't revert it: ("some scholars" vs "albanians" wasn't that fair, so I changed to "albanian scholars"). Hope you are ok with that. Also added "albanian" and left it third in the list to make you happy.sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 00:08, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity
I hope the current version is acceptable to all sides. Quite clearly, Kukuzelis belonged to the Byzantine musical tradition and was active in Byzantium. The only contemporary or almost-contemporary sources we have (to my knowledge these are his hagiography and the name of Polieleion of the Bulgarian Woman) identify him as Bulgarian by descent. I don't think any of you can deny that the guy had little to do with Albanians or the Albanian language and that he had no idea what a Macedonian language would be, simply because it came to be 550–600 years after his death. Sure enough, though, sources from Albania and the Republic of Macedonia claim the guy as their own, so why not mention this.

I'd say you bring your complaints to this page, not to edit summaries :) Thanks, Todor→Bozhinov 21:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Although, I'm not sure if that so small of a Fringe views should be even included. I mean, it's not even that popular in RoM. They have a publication on him only when the current top party needs to get some nationalistic agenda in and has already used all the revolutionaries and kings. -- L a v e o l  T 22:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * They're not just fringe, they lack any argumentation whatsoever. "He was born in Albania, therefore he was an Albanian", what the hell. Or even "He said he was Bulgarian and was not born in Macedonia, therefore he was an ethnic Macedonian". Ridiculous. But what can you do, the claims are widespread in those countries. Todor→Bozhinov 08:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Kukuzeli didn't spend one single day outside of Durres until he was 18. There are many books on him in Albania, and the fact that he was a byzantine singer and composer doesn't make him automatically greek or bulgarian. There are considerable contributions to the byzantine art from many albanians. Also, please do not remove transcription Gjon Kukuzeli in Albanian as Gjon kukuzeli redirects here. Unless you want a complete move to Gjon Kukuzeli/John Kukuzelis. sulmuestalk--Sulmues 19:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, he may have been born and raised in Durazzo or what you call it, but what does that have to do with him being an Albanian? He was not, and neither was the city mostly populated by Albanians at the time. Sure, there may have been Albanian artists in Byzantine service, being a Byzantine composer doesn't make him automatically Greek or Bulgarian, but all the contemporary sources point to him being at least half Bulgarian, and do not ever call him Albanian or, of course, Macedonian. Show me one medieval source that presents the guy as an ethnic Albanian and you can do whatever you want with the article. Until then, down with the unreferenced and unexplained changes. Todor→Bozhinov 19:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's you guys that want to call it Durrachium, I want to call it Durres but I tend to compromise so I called it Durazzo just to make you happy. The city was not populated by Albanians at that time??? Are you kidding me? Who told you that sir??? Now you want a medieval reference for us to call him Albanian: how can I give you that reference since all the orthodox albanians were called greek orthodox. You slavs had your national church back then, we didn't as we were under the greeks.sulmuestalk--Sulmues 21:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That's an unsourced and very simplistic way of looking at it.--Ptolion (talk) 21:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, the Albanians had no national church. What am I supposed to do about it? If there's no source about Albanian origin, this cannot be claimed with any credibility. I'd be curious to know what sources you have about the population of Durazzo at the time, because I wouldn't believe that Albanians were a sizable part of its population back then. Todor→Bozhinov 21:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Aha you guys are funny!!! Now who said that we have to have medieval sources to say what he was? And is the english reference you are bringing from the Middle Ages by any chance. And second, ptolion and todor are you suggesting that the "durrsak" used to speak french at that time? Did they speak languedoc or languedoeil according to you? Or did they speak exclusively italian? Or greek, oh yes, that must have been it!!! Or a little bulgarian, sure!!! Albanian, impossible!!!sulmuestalk--Sulmues 21:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No one saying Albanian - impossible. The onus is on you to prove with sources that there was a significant Albanian-speaking population then and/or that Kukuzelis was part of it.--Ptolion (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And why should be my onus to show that Durres people spoke Albanian. It would rather seem that you have to prove that they spoke greke and Bozhinov to prove that people in Durres at that time spoke Bulgarian. To me Durres is in Albania and it is logical that they always spoke Albanian, it is a little bit hazardous to say that they were slavs or greeks.sulmuestalk--Sulmues 21:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Umm, how are we supposed to say that Kukuzelis was Albanian if there are no contemporary sourced calling him Albanian whatsoever and if his own actions don't display any sign of affiliation to the Albanian people. He is recorded as being Bulgarian by birth in his hagiography, he dedicated a work to his Bulgarian mother, and he was active in the Byzantine Empire. What more is there to it?
 * Yes, I really don't think there were many Albanian speakers in medieval Dyrrachium/Durazzo/Durrës/Drach, whatever, you get the idea. To my knowledge, nothing hints at a large Albanian population in that city. It's up to you to prove that there was one. There were some Latins, there were undoubtedly a number of Byzantines, at least a few Bulgarians, but I think Albanians simply weren't an urban population back then. Here's Kukuzelis to aid my point that there were at least a few Bulgarians in medieval Durrës.
 * That the city is today in Albania has nothing to do with whether its medieval population had knowledge of that countrys language. Medieval Constantinople was a Byzantine city that spoke Greek: it is today the largest city of Turkey and is overwhelmingly a Turkish-speaking metropolis. Your argument is absolutely ridiculous. Times change, populations change, cities change.
 * This is off topic, though. I don't consider it something that we should be discussing here. Todor→Bozhinov 21:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You are saying that my argument is ridiculous, and I think exactly the same about yours. And if to your knowledge nothing hints at a large Albanian population of that city in the XIIIth century, I'll try to enlight your knowledge with the Princedom of Albania that has some insight as to how the Anjou were driven out from the Albanians. And If I fail to succeed (because you might argue that the Albanians dropped suddenly from the moon), I still don't have to prove zips to you. To me the article that takes into consideration only that the dude had a bulgarian mother and probably never spoke bulgarian is a complete failure. Reading at the end of it that he was probably albanian because 6 albanian scholars dreamt of the matter just shows how partial this article is. There is no reason why the bulgarian sources should matter more than the albanian ones. At that time our Gjon could have never immagined that we are fighting for his nationality, because the Albanian nation still was not perceived as it is today.sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 22:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Look, I have no desire to debate further, you're very far from understanding the Wikipedia principles of reliable sources, neutral point of view and verifiability. Either read up and come back or keep living in a fairy tale wonderland, but kindly stay out of serious discussions.
 * As for the article Princedom of Albania, it not only does not say that there was an Albanian population in (not around) Durrës before the conquest, but it's also unreferenced, sketchy, unclear, self-contradictory and outright dubious.
 * My participation in this discussion ends here, as I'm not at all convinced that you can provide any actual arguments to defend your position. Best, Todor→Bozhinov 22:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Slav Macedonian identity emerged in the 20th. cent. This man lived 1000 years ago. It is fringe and unrealistic view, that he was Macedonian Slav. At that time Macedonia was a Byzantine thema in today Turkey. I have removed this nonsence. Jingby (talk) 18:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1000 years ago Bulgarians spoke Proto-Turkish, which means that Kukuzel it is still of Slavic Macedonian origin.-- R   ašo [[Image:Aero-stub img.svg]] 19:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

However, neither ethnic Macedonian, nor Macedonian Slav, or Macedonoid identity existed then on the Balkans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jingiby (talk • contribs) 19:09, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Not correct info in the page Macedonian Slav orgin can misleads to Macedonians (ethnic group). Stop reverting the more accurately- Robert Elsie generalizes him as being Slav from Macedonia (region). Pensionero 15:00, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that "of Macedonian Slav descent" is a direct quote from Elsie. You can read the page on Google Books here.  — Toдor Boжinov — 16:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I have copied this information for Kukuzelis' last name from the original placed source Orthodox America. You can see it here. I will polite ask you why the info was deleted from the article? Pensionero 18:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Languages
Jingi, you know, the world knows and everyone knows that all three (Macedonian, Bulgarian and Albanian) were created in 1800s. The only language from 11 century until 19 century was Old Church Slavonic. Therefore, stop relying on the phrase "Macedonian language was created 1000 years later", because the same goes for BG. The states are totally irrelevant. I added Macedonian because some relevant scholars think Jovan Kukuzel as Macedonian. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 09:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I think, this was a kind of joke. Full stop. Jingiby (talk) 17:17, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Origin
My sources clarify that according to mainstream scholarship his father was an Albanian but his mother was a Bulgarian. Where is the problem here? I replaced pro Bulgarians with mainstream historians. Also, my sources are of recent years so subscribe on a library or buy them.Korintiku (talk) 19:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * There is any link per the search-engines above and especially per neutral, reliable sources, confirming your claims. Can you help us to verify your conclusion. Also, do not delete sourced verifiable content, only becouse you dislike it. Regards. 46.238.25.84 (talk) 20:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is a link to the first cited book - The Glory of Byzantium: Art and Culture of the Middle Byzantine Era, A.D. 843-1261. There I didn't find any mentioning of Koukouzelis. Can anybody look at it. Regards. 46.16.193.70 (talk) 15:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Your link sends to 1997 edition which as I know is the oldest version of the book. Probably the newer editons aren't avaiable via G. Books so you can search on online libraries. Thank you.Korintiku (talk) 16:04, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You must provide it, please. My verification has failed. Regards. 46.16.193.70 (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Most of sources in this article can't be verified via G. Books. Why don't you tag all of them? Until then my sources doesn't fail verification. Your link send to the oldest edition while the book has at least three editions (1997, 2000 and 2013). The old one has 597 pages while Kukuzeli is mentioned at page 600. I'm starting to suspect that you aren't telling the truth when you say you can verify all three sources.
 * Your link sends to 1997 edition which as I know is the oldest version of the book. Probably the newer editons aren't avaiable via G. Books so you can search on online libraries. Thank you.Korintiku (talk) 16:04, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You must provide it, please. My verification has failed. Regards. 46.16.193.70 (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Most of sources in this article can't be verified via G. Books. Why don't you tag all of them? Until then my sources doesn't fail verification. Your link send to the oldest edition while the book has at least three editions (1997, 2000 and 2013). The old one has 597 pages while Kukuzeli is mentioned at page 600. I'm starting to suspect that you aren't telling the truth when you say you can verify all three sources.

It is hard to find information about Kukuzeli even though he was a leading figure of Byzantine art and culture. His mother was a Bulgarian and his father's origin isn't discussed so much as he was an Albanian born in Albania. There is nothing to speak about the origin of an Albanian born in Albania, but it worths to speak about the origin of a Bulgarian who lives in Albania.Korintiku (talk) 18:20, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Your link sends to first edition with only 574 pages  The second edition has 604 pages  while the third edition can't be bought from Amazon. Please don't tag them anymore. Regards.Korintiku (talk) 18:33, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

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