Talk:John List (murderer)

Untitled
Tiffany glass ceiling was in the ball room —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.239.180 (talk) 23:34, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible that he was suffering from a mental disorder himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.136.81 (talk) 06:15, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * - Court appointed psychs said no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.173.174.36 (talk) 01:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

The Trivia section says: "John List lived in Westfield." I don't get it -- what is remarkable about this? Is there some subtle play on words...? Dogosaurus 07:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

"The Trivia section says: "John List lived in Westfield." I don't get it -- what is remarkable about this?"

Only that Westfield is an upscale suburb, and most people think that rich people don't have any problems. Someone anihilating their entire family in one of these types of towns is considered shocking and unheard of. That only occurs in poorer neighborhoods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.244.4 (talk) 15:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But thanks for the "upscale" notice, which is helpful for strangers. Carlm0404 (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Trivia: "Usual Suspects?" Really? Are you sure? 24.131.12.228 17:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

"List's story bears some resemblance to that of Keyser Soze from the American film The Usual Suspects, though it is unclear if this is intentional or not." I can't think of one reason why. I've now removed it Pennywisepeter 11:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

re: the tiffany glass ceiling, its probably not Tiffany & Co, but Tiffany Studios, which is the company that produced the famous glass. Lewis Comfort Tiffany was the founder of Tiffany Studios; his father was the founder of Tiffany & Co.18.173.1.81 17:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

A personal note...

When List and I were in jail together in 1989, one of the corrections officers had a habit of saying, "Hey, John, how's the family?" every time he walked past List's cell. This was while List was still using the "Bob Clark" alias, before he acknowledged his actual identity to me. List showed little emotion in response to the C.O.'s taunting. He usually would respond by saying, "My name is Robert Clark," and go back to whatever he was doing.

We did eventually discuss his crime, to some extent, often talking around it more so than about it. He once said to me, "Richard, I know the biggest question you won't ask me is why I did it. All I can say is that at the time, it all seemed to make sense to me." But when I asked him when it stopped making sense, he didn't answer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.50.29 (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I am the same author who wrote the above segment.

Once upon a time, this article contained an account, written by myself, of how John revealed his actual identity to me. It's since been edited out, which I understand, seeing as how it's unverified. What happened was that John (as Bob Clark) and I started talking about our respective experiences in the military, and I mentioned that perhaps his military records could prove his innocence (as they would have taken his fingerprints).

John got very serious, and then looked sad, when I mentioned that, I suppose realizing that his fingerprints would seal the case against him rather than exonerate him. He excused himself and said he was tired and needed to rest. It was shortly afterwards that he admitted to me that he was John List. To my knowledge, I was the first person to whom he admitted his identity and his guilt.

I always considered John to be an enigma. He seemed a mild-mannered, pleasant old man, of apparently deep religious faith; and yet not only the acts of his crimes, but also the years he spent concealing them, speak of a certain sociopathy.

In fact, were it not for the intentionality of his actions after the crime, I'd be inclined to believe his crimes were the result of a psychotic break. But even after his sentencing, in his letters to me while we were serving our respective sentences (in different prisons), he never really seemed to accept moral responsibility for his crimes, even while acknowledging the facts of his actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.77.109 (talk) 03:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This is very interesting. You're correct that we can't include your content in the article due to WP:V issues. Have you ever been interviewed by an author about this? If it's in a published account from a reliable source it could be at least partially included. Doc   talk  03:42, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I haven't been interviewed. I should look through my old papers and see if I can find any of the letters. It's been more than 15 years since I've been released, and I've moved several times in that period; so I'm not sure I still have them. They might be of some historical interest if I do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.77.109 (talk) 12:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Those letters would absolutely be of historical interest! I, for one, would be very interested to see them.  And yes, he was clearly a sociopath; a court-appointed psychiatrist testified to that diagnosis during the trial, as mentioned in the article.   DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  12:42, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Oops, I wrote the above without double-checking -- apparently his official diagnosis at the time was OCPD, but it seems clear in retrospect that he fit most if not all of the criteria for ASPD. DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  12:50, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You should write to Weird NJ magazine. They'd love to hear your story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.173.174.36 (talk) 01:12, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Merge
John Emil List doesn't actually add new information; I don't think a merge and redirect would be too controversial. Deadsalmon 08:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Redirected. 68.39.174.238 00:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

"In the film Falling Down, the main character played by Michael Douglas is found to pretend to drive to work long after being fired from a position as an engineer in a defense contract company. This is very similar to a habit of List's, when after being fired as a bank VP, he would drive to a train station and take the train several stops to give the illusion of still being employed."

I'm not saying the person who wrote the screenplay of this movie didn't base these actions on List, but it's not the first time that someone pretending to be still employed has happened or been depicted in fiction. Usually the person doing it is depicted as being unstable, if not actually mentally ill or a substance abuser, or else they had been fired for something like embezzlement which they were not prosecuted for and which they were afraid to tell their spouse about. I listen to a lot of old time radio from the 1950's and remember at least one show where this happened--I wish I could remember which one it was, and if I do hear it again I'll come back and post it in here. I think there have been TV episodes in the 1960's where someone did this--hopefully someone else will remember one. Also in the play "The Glass Menagerie" by Tennesee Williams, written in the 1940's, I believe, the character Laura drops out of business college but is afraid to tell her mother, so she goes out every day as if she's going to college. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.16.43.47 (talk) 04:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

There was an episode of The Flintstones where Fred lost his job and pretended to go to work. Sitting on a bench, he meets another man who has been doing the same thing. The punchline comes when the other man admits he's been doing this for several years. Illogically, with his wife none the wiser.Just1thing (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is Barney Tracy not mentioned?
He was crucial to the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.28.136 (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

How was he crucial to the case? Carlm0404 (talk) 00:06, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Something a little personal...
My father had dated John List's daughter when he was a child. He told me that John used to chase him out of the house if he brought a guitar over because he felt that music was from Satan. He also told me that they really didnt have any furniture in the house and that John's mother was pretty much the same way when it came to religion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Carbon star (talk • contribs) 01:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Presumably, he did not think all music was from Satan. There is such a thing as church music. Forensic Files has reenactment of singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. And did John List like the kind of music that he left playing when he left his NJ home for last time, just after the murders? Carlm0404 (talk) 23:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

A guitar is present in the ballroom crime scene photos, so he couldn't have hated them that much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.201.61.202 (talk) 16:08, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

dead yet?
i think he has recently died in prison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.205.72 (talk) 04:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

you have no evidence which supports that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quaked (talk • contribs) 03:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

John List passed away today, March 21, 2008. He died while undergoing medical treatment at a prison medical facility in Trenton, New Jersey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgslate (talk • contribs) 22:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The announcement was put out on the AP wire yesterday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeanie821 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, "medical treatment" can be a bitch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.47 (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Time until discovery of murder
I reference this line in the intro: "He had planned everything so meticulously that nearly a month passed before anyone noticed that anything was amiss." Having read Thou Shalt Not Kill, it should be noted somewhere (not sure where, since I'm a wikipedia newbie) that the family lived a very sheltered life; rarely venturing out except to church every Sunday. Another reason, other than meticulous planning, that it took so long for the murders to be discovered is that they didn't talk to any of their neighbors, and vice versa. His neighbors pretty much thought he was a strange duck (mowing his lawn in a 3-piece suit, for example) and after attempting to socialize with the family and being rebuffed, they gave up. The police were called once prior to the discovery; the neighbors were concerned about the lights being on night and day. The police cased the area and left thinking nothing was wrong. The person who called the police the second time was daughter Patty's music teacher. I apologize for forgetting names and other details; I no longer have the book and it's been a good 15 years since I've read it. Maybe someone else could fill in the details of the discovery better than I could. 71.205.1.189 (talk) 11:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

"Having read Thou Shalt Not Kill..."

- Thou Shalt Not Kill is a fictionalized version of the List story.

"mowing his lawn in a 3-piece suit"

- It was just a suit and tie.

"Another reason, other than meticulous planning, that it took so long for the murders to be discovered is that they didn't talk to any of their neighbors"

- List told neighbors and his children's school that they were going away on vacation. Police were called because Pat's drama teacher showed up in the middle of the night to peer into their windows, and List's neighbors thought they were being robbed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.173.174.36 (talk) 01:05, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

The bust of List
Just wondering if anyone would be able to add a photo of the bust alongside a photo of List as there is a massive chunk of text describing it, but it would be nice if a visual could be added too. Sky83 (talk) 10:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's one: http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/criminal_mind/forensics/hans_vorhauer/5-1-John-List-bust-compared.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.231.18 (talk) 02:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I went to the link just above, and that's an old photo (1971?) of List. There was a remark (on Forensic Files program on what was then Court TV?) from a detective to the effect that the bust was so well done it looked like List himself was the model. So we're still lacking a side-by-side visual comparison of John List in 1989 with that bust. Forgot to add that Frank Bender, who (in consultation with forensic psychologist) made that bust, died recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I have now gone to the TruTV "crime library" site. It includes the John List story, and it says that the photo of list was from 1970 (I said "1971?" above). You can go through that to find what John List looked like near the time of his arrest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 14:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

At this writing, i have just noticed "All reliable photographs of List had been destroyed." What were the circumstances, and how did one photograph survive, to be in evidence as Frank Bender made the forensic bust? I assume that photograph was indeed reliable, other than having reliability being reduced being reduced by age. Carlm0404 (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

PTSD
He was diagnosed with PTSD in 2001 according to the book Born to Spy by Austin Goodrich. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.152.140.93 (talk) 20:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Steyr M1912
Based on the photograph in Righteous Carnage (see here, search for "Steyr" and select page 187), the 9mm murder weapon was a Steyr M1912.

The gun is also identified in the caption as a "1918 German 9mm semiautomatic" and on page 117 as being from World War I. This means the 9mm caliber cannot have been 9x19mm Parabellum, as the rechambering to 9x19mm took place in 1938, but must have been 9x23mm Steyr. --Lambiam 23:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Compare with the Romand case
A very similar case (finance problems lead to mass family murder) happened in france (see )Sceasary (talk) 12:51, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Question
Has anyone determined the identity of the entity who claimed his body and burried him next to his mother?--Two way time (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

2nd wife
OK, I am seeing: Delores Clark (Miller), married 1985- I was thinking of editing in "2008 (his death)" but don't know if I'd be getting into privacy issues. It's a good question (subject to being left unanswered because of privacy issues) what became of Delores after the arrest of the man who turned out to be John List, not Bob Clark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I have placed "(Miller)" ahead of "Clark", because that's the form I have commonly seen over the years to account for the surname used by the bride up to the time of the marriage. Obviously, "Clark" is provided because the groom was using the name Bob Clark at that time. There is a "?" now provided for the ending of the marriage; I was not involved in putting it in, but rest assured I think it is **OK**. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 14:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Now I am seeing: Delores Miller Clark (m. 1985; div.) for the listing of 2nd wife. So it came to a divorce sometime between his arrest and his death, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 20:34, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It was mentioned in Collateral Damage: The John List Story that Delores did divorce him and now lives in seclusion & poverty. This book was written in 2006 by John List himself with a ghost writer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.33.79 (talk) 18:29, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

The 1993 "Judgement Day" TV movie about this case had the 2nd wife asking what would become of her. I don't know what the character's name was, but it presumably was used in place of Delores (Miller) Clark's name. Anyway, the point is that she saw the personal life she knew getting shot out from under her when her husband turned out to be not Robert Clark but the mass murderer John List. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.47 (talk) 18:35, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * In the preface to Collateral Damage, co-author Austin Goodrich wrote that List agreed to participate in the project (1) to correct "egregious errors" that had been written about him in other books, and (2) to generate money for Delores. "As the innocent wife ... Delores became the victim of media rape after his arrest, and went into seclusion.  She later declined any financial help and quietly got a divorce."  There is no mention of her current financial status.  Please sign your posts, by the way; common courtesy and all that.  DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  02:29, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Himself in addition to or instead of his immediate family?
Notice the Connie Chung interview of 2002. She asked John List why he had not killed himself. Does this mean killing himself in addition to **OR** instead of his immediate family? There were 2 cases very close together in time and distance (central Maryland, April 2009) where a man killed his wife, his children, and himself, prompting a pastoral outreach from the Catholic Archdiocese of Baltimore. (Those 2 men were Christopher Wood and William Parente.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 15:19, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I wrote the above anonymously. If you are wondering, I heard he answered that he thought suicide would bar him from heaven. Carlm0404 (talk) 00:20, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Never expressed any remorse?
Under the "Arrest and Trial" section it says "List never expressed any remorse for his crimes". This is categorical and gratuitous. How would anyone know? The truth is, on page 80 of his autobiography "Collateral Damage", List writes "I wish I had never done what I did. I've regretted my action and prayed for forgiveness ever since". That sounds like "remorse" to me. PaulOCPDmanager (talk) 01:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The no remorse statement is unreferenced, while the remorse statement is. It will be corrected. This article also needs reference restructuring, which I will try to get to later. Doc   talk  04:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ Doc   talk  19:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In their podcast about the case, Father Wants Us Dead, Rebecca Everett and Jessica Remo interviewed the current pastor of List's church in Westfield, who said that his predecessor was in contact with List while he was in prison and that List did, near the end of his life, atone (if that's the right word--I don't know much about Lutheranism--for the murders. The pastor expressed his opinion that it was sincere, though whether it really was is unknowable. CasparRH (talk) 23:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Methodical?
List might have indeed been methodical but not as much as I would have been if I had been capable of something like this. The article states that after killing all of his family save his eldest son, he went out on last minute errands and then drove to watch his remaining son play soccer. Had I been him, I would have been petrified that through some fluke the boy would have unexpectedly come home while he was out and found the bodies. I do not doubt the veracity of the account, though. People do some mind-boggling things.

I read where after that creep Michael Devlin kidnapped Shawn Hornbeck (age 11), for a month he left the boy bound and gagged in his apartment for hours at a time while Devlin worked at a pizza shop. For the life of me, I don’t know how he could have functioned under those circumstances. Such people must have the proverbial nerves of steel to match their diabolic natures.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 22:19, 30 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Please see my comment below about the claim that List attended the soccer game. There is no evidence that he did. This claim should be removed from the article, IMO. CasparRH (talk) 23:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

How notable are documentary links?
Seeking consensus on a relatively minor point: There is a link in the "external links" section to an episode of the A&E television series American Justice entitled "To Save Their Souls". We continually see reminders that Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files, and a simple reference in the external links section would seem to be sufficient for a straightforward documentary about List. However, another editor feels that this documentary is important enough to include a second reference in the body of the article, since some readers don't notice the external links. Not an earthshaking disagreement, to be sure -- but it comes up in other articles every so often, so I'd like to solicit the opinions of other interested editors and go with the consensus. Any input appreciated. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/ talk to me!  05:59, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

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“…ran a car pool for shut-in church members”
What on Earth is “…ran a car pool for shut-in church members” supposed to mean? Use international English please instead of some local slang. As it currently stands it is utter nonsense! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.0.240.168 (talk) 07:59, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I can't find it now in this article, but it doesn't look like nonsense to me. A shut-in might be living, say, in a nursing home with no transportation to church. Carlm0404 (talk) 00:02, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

a street called List Street
I did some vacationing in Michigan and there was a case in Frankenmuth where I traveled from the area of Bronner's Christmas Wonderland to the military museum in the same town; I mention this because that how I came across List Street. This isn't that far from Bay City, cited here on Wikipedia as where John List the mass murderer was from. I also understand that the local Lutheran church at Frankenmuth is of Missouri Synod. Carlm0404 (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 18 August 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 02:39, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

John List (serial killer) → John List (murderer) – This matter had been commented upon in December 2012 by User:Michaelh2001. The simpler and more appropriate parenthetical qualifier would seem to be "(murderer)". — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Questions - Do reputable sources refer to him as a serial killer, murderer, or something else? Are there other Wikipedia pages that use (murderer) as a disambiguator? Fredlesaltique (talk) 13:18, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Robert Anderson (murderer), William Bradford (murderer), Vernon Brown (murderer), Matthew Hoffman (murderer), Josh Phillips (murderer), Ronald Phillips (murderer), Craig Price (murderer), Juan Segundo (murderer), Eric Smith (murderer) or Melvin White (murderer), to name but ten. If consensus prefers John List (serial killer) → John List (mass murderer) per James Holmes (mass murderer) or Luis Monge (mass murderer), who likewise killed his family, I would support such a form. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Lol that's a lot. Do reputable sources call him "murderer" or "mass murderer"? Either way seems like should be changed and I would support move. Fredlesaltique (talk) 14:20, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose on procedural grounds. This page was moved a day or so ago from John List to John List (serial killer) with the rationale "Disabiguate between John List (serial killer) and John A List (economist)". I don't really see |John_A._List any evidence this article is not the primary topic, especially considering this is a WP:TWODAB situation. So per WP:BRD, I think the dab should first be removed (although obviously "murderer" is preferable to "serial killer", which List was not). Nohomersryan (talk) 20:11, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Move. Definitely a murderer, not a serial killer. &mdash; The Anome (talk) 19:09, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per User:The Anome. It is clear that John List killed his family pretty much in one go, making him a murderer. J I P  &#124; Talk 20:07, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: whatever the case is, this article can't remain at the current title of John List (serial killer), simply because List was not a serial killer. You might as well call the article John List (banana). And since he meets the FBI criteria for mass murder, and we have adopted this convention for other articles, John List (mass murderer), with John List (murderer) being a redirect to it, is clearly the correct solution. As for WP:TWODAB, I don't think there's any reason for preferring this John List over John A. List for the name; I'd never heard of either before reading this discussion, and List-the-murderer is not a sufficiently exceptional individual to establish an permanent claim on the name. &mdash; The Anome (talk) 10:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Title must change, its wholly inaccurate. He’s a mass murderer, by definition, who committed “familicide.” WowDidIDoThat (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support. Clearly not a serial killer. He was a murderer. A mass murderer, yes, but "murderer" is fine. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

John Jr. soccer game
The article says that on the day of the murders, John Emil List went to the high school "to watch his elder son John Frederick, 15, play in a soccer game," but there is no evidence to support this. In their podcast about the case, Father Wants Us Dead, Rebecca Everett and Jessica Remo state that it is uncertain whether List Sr. picked John Frederick up at the game or he was dropped off at home by someone else. No mention of List Sr. watching the game, and it seems rather out-of-character for him to do so. CasparRH (talk) 14:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)