Talk:John Lloyd Waddy

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Terms PAF and CAF
"Permanent Air Force" is not the formal name of an organization. There was never a separate organization by that name therefore, it is not the correct term to use, regardless of its incorrect use in any source. "Permanant air force" is certainly not a proper noun to be capitalized. The organization's name is The Royal Australian Air Force and should be referred to as such. The RAAF uses the term "Permanent Air Force" for its internal uses. Therefore, it is the "RAAF's permanent air force". The term "permanent air force" was derived from earlier references to the re-established Australian Army, Australian Air Corps as a "permanent air force"), therefore reference needs to be made to "RAAF" to distinguish it. The description "RAAF permanent air force" or "RAAF's permanent air force" may be appropriate but not "Permanent Air Force" on its own.  There is certainly nothing wrong with adding "RAAF" before the term permanent air force.

"Citizens Air Force", similarly, was never an official name, was never the name of a separate organization and is certainly not a proper noun to be capitalized. The organization's name is The Royal Australian Air Force and should be referred to as such. The RAAF uses the term "Reserve" which is widely used and recognized. "Citizens Air Force" was never official or widely used, less still widely recognized. Regardless of whether a source or others incorrectly referred to the RAAF reserve as the "Citizens Air Force" or "CAF", it is not the correct term to use and certainly unnecessary in this article. CAF has other, much better-known uses and derogatory connotations. The article referred to:


 * "the RAAF Reserve, also known as the Citizen Air Force"

therefore, that edit version acknowledged that the term "RAAF reserve" is correct. That the RAAF reserve was "also" referred to as the CAF or some other name by some is superfluous and irrelevant to an article on Lloyd Waddy.

An editor suggested their reversion to the terms PAF and CAF was "per sources" but those sources put the terms in fuller, proper context which is not conveyed in this article. It is therefore inaccurate to say the edit was per sources. One of the cited sources does not use or justify the words of the article. It is not necessary to retain the terminology and wording of a source unless an entire passage is being quoted. Another editor gave excuses (so eloquently) that the terms PAF and CAF "were the titles of those things" and "what the things were called" are really just personal preferences. The poor expression also resulted in the article referring to "PAF force" (like LPG gas, ATM machine, PIN number) that's the "permanent air force force". RAAF permanent force is much simpler and meaningful.

Reference to PAF and CAF may be appropriate to an article on the RAAF or elsewhere but the article on Lloyd Waddy is not the place to propound obscure and unnecessary jargon and military penchant for acronyms favoured by a few special interests. 115.42.13.237 (talk) 23:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Both terms are widely used in histories of the RAAF, and are appropriate here. Please stop edit warring. Nick-D (talk) 23:51, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

You claim the terms are used widely ... but only in RAAF histories! The terms RAAF permanent force and RAAF reserve are more widely used and more meaningful. The terms PAF and CAF are jargon and not necessary or, given their context, appropriate in an article on Waddy. You have no justifiable argument for your edit and are just exerting personal preference. 115.42.13.237 (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * A fair point re. "PAF forces" and have altered accordingly -- but for the rest it's hardly just the "personal preferences" of Nick and myself when a dozen commentators as GAN, MilHist A-Class Review and FAC did not appear to find the article's language burdened by jargon. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:20, 29 October 2022 (UTC)