Talk:John Maynard Keynes/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Images

 * File:John Maynard Keynes.jpg. It's not a terribly good picture of Keynes, but that isn't too important.  The 'source' listed no longer exists, but the original source has been verified by OTRS.
 * Sorted. Will replace with a better pic  once I can get  one verified to upload as public domain.


 * File:Goldkey_logo_removed.jpg. I'm not of the mind that a picture of gold is needed to illustrate a discussion about Keynes and the gold standard, but I fully admit that econ articles tend to have a shortage of helpful images.
 * I see your point but I rather keep it until a better one becomes available as it sets off the other images nicely. An aesthetically pleasing visual layout aids comprehension and retention of new facts, so I think it has encyclopaedic value.


 * File:WhiteandKeynes.jpg should be linked as the 'original' of the first image above.
 * File:MiltonFriedman.jpg is very likely non-free. It's closely cropped, low resolution, and lacking in source info.  My guess is that it has been downloaded from a web page someplace.  Friedman is dead, so a non-free image can be used, but a justification would have to be made for its use in this article.
 * had a go at doing the justification, also removed the tag as I improved the source / author info.


 * File:GrantKeynes.jpg. The source claims to be from a book without a copyright notice.  I could request it from inter-library loan to see if that's the case, but there is no indication of that online.
 * If youre at the library anyway it would be great if you could help verifying this image, as from a web search it seems to be the best one available for Keynes and Grant even if copyright wasnt an issue.
 * Ok. It will take a few weeks probably, but it will come eventually. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * File:Lydia_Lopokova.jpg has a particular tag which I can't resolve because the image has no info.
 * There seems to be much better images of Lydia available which Ill try to confirm can be uploaded as PD. In the mean time it looks like the correct tag is one of two Public domain ones and we dont have the info to determine for sure which one to use. But as they are both PD there isnt an urgent issue here?
 * Not really if we know where the image is from. That's the crucial part.  Once we have some evidence on the description page then the actual tag isn't important until FAC. Protonk (talk) 17:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (2ndreply) I'll ask the original uploader when im at work,  my Vodafone connection is classing Commons as a restricted site.  There's a lovely pic of Lydia at http://www.iconocast.com/B000000000000184_Korea/M7/News9.htm  where she looks young enough that it has to be pre 1923,  but as we cant say that absolutely 100% i guess i ought not upload  it as PD, and as i dont know  the copyright holder i dont think i can upload it as fair use?


 * Is it too much to ask for an IS/LM curve? I know that Hicks and Wicksell are probably more closely connected to the construction of the 'curve' itself, but econ textbooks still refer to IS/LM as 'keynsian' with a hand-wave.
 * There are dozens probably hundreds of papers and book chapters looking at IS LM  and from the ones Ive glanced at the consensus seems to be it is unKeynesian in the sense it contradictory to Keynes vision  in a number of ways,  principally  that its contary to Keynes's position that  due to the uncertain nature of expectations its dangerous to reduce economic behaviour to equations especially as a tool for policy analyses.    Another issue being that in was to much of a compromise with the older classical view.  On p548  of his single volume biographie    Lord Skidelsky implies  Keynes felt this himself, despite his famous letter where he said he couldn't       fault the model. Two of my other best sources, Minksy and  Fletcher, seem to agree. Certainly we know several of Keynes closest disciplines like Kahn and Robinson became markedly hostile to IS LM.       There's no doubt IS LM was for several decades of central importance to mainstream Keynesian economics and a heavily used polity tool, but thats more an argument for including it in the Keynesian economics section.  Finally,  although the model is extremely use for helping the mathematically trained economist to grasp the essence of the General Theory  (or at least to think they do)  I think for our average reader it will be frustrating as they might not  understand how it related to Keynes without  a lenghy explanation we dont have space for. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this ties in with the point below about Math. I think there is something critically important about the ISLM curve being so closely associated with Keynes despite his animus toward it.  An article like Keynes, IS-LM, and the Marshallian Tradition could really substantiate the issue without digging too far into the arcana.  I mean, we don't need to dig into the arcana of the model to say "here is this model that came to be synonymous w/ Keynes despite the fact that he had nothing to do with it, historian XYZ says this is why and this is the impact". Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (2ndreply) Yep i agree the best place for a pic and the discussion you're asking for is probably the maths article? For now ive added a brief mention of IS LM and link for the main article.

Major issues
Apart from what will be mentioned below, these are some large problems with the article which need to be fixed:
 * There is a NPOV tag on the article. I haven't worked down in detail so I can't determine its justification.
 * the disputing editor has kindly agreed not to re add the tag once its removed. I personally think that the section is now biased against Keynes unless ones looking at it from a purely academic perspective,  so hopefully while the other editor still has concerns in the other direction,  so hopefully it all balances out.


 * John_Maynard_Keynes is a mess. 15 subsections, each presented as quotes from various persons.  It should be possible to give a narrative form of critique from a monetarist standpoint.  I also had a chuckle at Murray Rothbard being in company with Schumpeter and Friedman.
 * This is one of your points I least agree with though I can see that what your saying is in line with standard practice for good article.  I just feel Keynes is an exceptional case and ought to be treated exceptionally.  He received a highly polarised reception which defies easy summary.   (though one can say immediately after his death the obituaries were almost uniformly  glowingly positive, the overall picture is much more complex.)  The several large collections of critical responses  seem to keep their editorial commentary to a minimum and devote by far the devote the bulk of their space  to repeating the critics original responses.  So I think Im following the sources by letting the reception speak for itself.  I did have slightly more narrative in the section but an editor objected to it as editorial puff.   I think it looked much better when I was using cquote,  but the MOS says to use plain block quotes except for pull quotes  ,     do you think I could go back to cquote?   We have some of Milton's man to man response which I think is most suited to a bio article.  The monetarists critique was much more aimed at Keynesian economics as it was practiced many years after Keynes death, and a strong case can be made it was no longer really Keynesian in the sense that the man himself would have fully approved.  I think what you're asking for here belongs in articles detailing the history of monetarism and Keynesian economics.   (Though I expect to somewhat expand what Ive already said on the subject in the main Keynesian Resurgence article. )  As for Murray,  he seems to be highly respected by the Austrian  School and many libertarians,  so I definitely think his view should be included.   I like his honesty,  at least he admits Keynes converted the entire Austrian School in England apart from Hayeck himself,  whereas as many free market propagandists like to claim that in the 30's only Hitler listened to Keynes!  See the General Theory article for example.
 * More on this later. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The image issues above should be worked out.
 * Ive tried to do what I can on short notice. If you decide to fail on these grounds Id rather that than remove any images  as I think they're close to indispensible to helping the reader gain an understanding of the subject.     Before submitting the article to FAC,  I intend to get down to the British library  then I can verify  that some of the excellent  images of Keynes and Lydia and maybe some of his other friends  were published prior to 1923 then i can upload them as Public domain. Might be a few months before i have time.

Style issues

 * The third paragraph in the lede could stand to be a little longer and a little more balanced. One sentence is devoted to the entire decade of the 1970s (and the cite is unnecessary), the next two sentences refer to events in the last few years.
 * Will try and tweak it a bit, but i feel the average reader will me interested in the last few years as this is where Keynes legacy in having enormous influence on our current prospects for economic  recovery.


 * some of the see also links are repeated from the article body text.
 * Had better locate and delete then i guess.


 * Some of the external links might be better off as sources. For example, the LBGT encyclopedia and the discussion about Keynes and Australia.  Some can probably be removed, like Newsweek's cheat sheet and the various links to southern domains.
 * Glbtq is already a cite so I guess Ill remove that.  Id prefer  not to remove newsweek as i think we should cater for folk who like easily digestible sourcres,  and the southern domains article look s quite interesting.  I wouldn't object if someone else removes them. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Some suggestions

 * I would suggest that 'education' be gently merged into 'early life' so that a semi-chronological story can be told. a rough and tumble way to do it would be to insert the first para in education after the first para in early life and the second para in edu into the second para in early life.  The third para in early life makes for a good capper to the section as a whole and doesn't work well when followed by a discussion of his prep school days.
 * Can see the advantage to that.
 * A couple of few advantages. It shaves prose space, eliminates a branch in the TOC, allows that portion of the biography to flow better, and makes your GA reviewer happier. ;) Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In the 1920s section should be broken up into at least two paragraphs, and sufficient contextual linking should be made to help the readers understand what the text is referring to.
 * will do


 * "For commentators such as economist Hyman Minsky, Keynes's limited use of mathematics was partly the result of his scepticism about whether phenomena as inherently uncertain as economic activity could ever be adequately captured by maths." Hints at a larger biographical role that mathematics hold for us. Keynes used his editorship at TEJ to push away mathematically heavy articles--a pressure which has been cited as vaulting Econometrica to the top so quickly.
 * Due to space concerns, I wonder if you or LK would agree that creating a Keynes and Mathematics  article might work?  I think theres enough to say to get it to start class.  In addition to your point,  we could have more on Keynes mathematical contributions and degree at Cambridge.  His strong (considering the times and his intended audience) use of numbers in early works like Economic Consequences.   His pushing for better statistical information on output, employment,  GDP related data etc.  The fact his mathematical ability declined in his 50s and he started to rely on students like Keynes  for advanced calculations.  (But he still retained an excellent command of numerical data with stunned his colleagues during the Breton Woods negotiation.)  His general view that maths is indispensible for achieving a historical picture of events and analysing the effect of past policies,  but that it is dangerous to rely on maths too much for making predictions and to determine policy. Commentators have mentioned how recent events in the markets have proved him right,  such as LTCM in the 90s  or the 2008 crises.  Leijonhufvud  has a great paper on how the Feds retention of one of the Monetarists formulas relating to inflation (based on retail prices excluding assets) being a key factor that led to the asset bubble.
 * Keynes and math(s) would make a wonderful article. Roy Eppstein's history of econometrics has some info (IIRC) about Keynes's leadership of TEJ (Almost the reverse of Edgeworth's activities less than a generation before) leading to good math heavy articles moving to Econometrica.  I think that a complete picture on wikipedia is far in the future, but that a short summary can be offered without losing the reader in the weeds. Protonk (talk)
 * (2ndreply) Im having some ideas for how it can be a really sexy article, as well as all the above we can have the key equations Keynes produced, as well as the more expressive functions that were later used to formalise his mostly verbal descriptions in the GT.  Is probably several weeks or maybe months away as there are several sources id better read first.


 * No mention of Keynes's opinions about americans in general? Or more specifically, his ordinal ranking of Men from Oxford first, Cambridge second, then Englishmen, then maybe other folks?  This question is kind of tongue in cheek but he wasn't shy about declaring that the world ought to be run by a certain set of folks. :)
 * I think he just said that sort of thing to mess about. Some of his private conversation did use the standard racist stereotypes but his actions and public pronouncements werent racist at all.  His preferred candidate as the first head of the IMF was a Indian for example.  The only way he was genuinely elitist was that he felt those operating the levers of power should be well educated in both the moral and technical sense.  Skidelsky neglects this aspect, but its covered in the Cunningham source. Generally Keynes was very positive about Americans.  Some of the edge of his Criticism of Wilson was due to his disappointment that he didn't live up to his promise of rescuing the world from the decadent princes of the old world.   In the 30's when much of the European academic elite were looking to Russia,  Keynes still held that America was the key economic laboratory from which to learn progressive lessons.   Though White often overruled Keynes at Breton Woods, even in his private communication Keynes was very possible about the American.  You might be thinking about what Keynes had to say just before his death during and immediately after his negotiations with the Americans for the loan.  This is the one time Keynes was close to having a nervous break down. He saw it as the culmination of American efforts to use their financial leverage to ensure the War finished Great Britain as a great power.  Which he felt was profoundly unfair as if Britain had made a proportionately much higher sacrifice for the war.  Which anyway can be seen as being  more in Americas interests than ours  (Hitler was mad keen to remain at peace with Britain  / countering aggressive old world imperialism was much more an American concern.)  And as Keynes saw Britain as a force for good and was concerned about the effect on prosperity of the load settlement.   So anyway its not surprising Keynes wasnt too happy about the Americans in that period,  but it was not at all is normal position.     Finally, I dont recall  any of the serious sources Ive read offering a concise summary of Keynes view on Americans, and as an editor has already said the article is too Anglo – American orientated I think it might be best to leave this out. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall that this american life interviewed Alan Blinder and he made a sort of chuckling reference to Keynes's opinions about Oxford grads vs. the rest of the world. :) It's not a bit deal. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Minor issues

 * Under 'field' in the infobox, both Political Economy and Probability Theory are noted. While both are true, the infobox might have neglected another big one. ;)
 * Indeed!


 * "resigned his position to return to Cambridge and work on probability theory, at first privately funded only by two Dons at the university – his father and the economist Arthur Pigou." What's a "Don"?
 * Ill wik link to University don


 * "the Treasury were largely excluded from formal high-level talks concerning reparations; their place taken by the Heavenly Twins." I know heavenly twins is hatnoted and wikilinked, but the paragraph could do with some in text explanation of what is a peculiar nickname.
 * I think it might serves to draw the reader in to the very interesting dedicated article, but Id be happy to use a more prosaic name for the two Lords and just have the Main article link? ( I just think explaining the handle would take too many words)
 * Explaining the handle may be too much, or it may not. "under pressure from so-and-so, Keynes' influence in paris was eclipsed (eh?!) by the Heavenly Twins, Lord So's Your Uncle and Baron Oldmoney, whose nicknames stemmed from the astronomical reparations they would demand from germany" Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Treaty of Versailles could also be hatnoted or wikilinked in the section on the treaty.
 * ok, that article was heavilly tagged when i last looked.
 * All the more reason to link it. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As I recall, portions of A Treatise on Money actually conflicted with The General Theory. Heilbroner lavishes some time on this point.  Also, the During the Great Depression section breezes through 1930-1936 too quickly.  There is a period of time where Keynes has great influence on American economic policy which is normally credited to The General Theory--a credit which is temporally impossible, by 1936 deficit spending to return the country to full employment is in full swing.  A discussion of Keynes's official and unofficial consultations w/ American officials would be beneficial here.
 * Yes and theres a lot more that could be said on the conflict with his earlier work but due to space Id rather that be discussed in the main General Theory article?   Again Id rather flesh out Keynes's consultations in the main article on the Revolution.  Actually theres a way in that GT could have influenced decisions before 1936.  Keynes had been releasing sections of it unofficially to get feed back well before publication,  and sections had found their way over to the US which contributed to the excitement building up there among economics students.  Schumpeter talks about it in one of his review of Keynes which should be in the Seymour Hariss source that should be fully accessible on Google Books
 * Actual conflicts between Treatise on Money and General theory can be kicked back to a theory article--scratch what I said above, I found my copy of The Worldly Philosophers--pages 267-271 in the 7th edition talk about Treatise vs. Theory. 274-278 talks about Keynes sending notes and writing letters and opeds.  The human interaction of Keynes 'in' washington in the early-mid thirties should be included. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Keynes had been advocating stimulus type measures from about 1925, and had wrote to Roosevelt  in 1933. Lord Skidelsky however says there's general consensus that his ideas didnt achieve much influence on US decision making until 1939, which seems to agree with others sources like Minsky and Fletcher.
 * (2ndreply) I've added a bit, there's more that could be said about meetings with Frances Perkins, Herbert Hoover , Henry Morgenthau, Jr ect but as the sources say little resulted from then I thought I better not talk about them too much to avoid balloning the article?


 * "At the time there was little theoretical support for Keynes's position that it wouldn't be in even America's own long term interest to have their national currency serve as de facto international legal tender. It was only in the 1960s this concept was formally treated as the Triffin dilemma." This sentence is pretty awkward.
 * Will try and think of a better way to say it.


 * Economics: out of favor 1979–2007 could do with a rewrite. The bookends of the section are 1979/2007, but much of the content refers to works or events prior to 1979.  Even the first sentence indicates that plenty had been brewing behind the scenes before 1979 (at least in England).
 * Agreed. Its pesky as the official date Keynesian economics was dropped by the UK is 79,  but as you say hostile forces were gathering much earlier.
 * This links in with my comment in the lede above. Friedman's 1968 paper begins the shot across the bow...or really, A Monetary History of the United States begins the internecine fight.  If we expand this section a little and include the 70s more fully, the paragraph in the lede will be easier to flush out. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No mention of South America in the Keynsianism out of favor section?
 * South America's story is one of huge interest and importance, but I feel its decoupled from Keynes's on a number of grounds. Haven't looked at the academic work in great depth,  my two main sources are my sister whos done extensive out reach work there and Naomi Klein. Id love to include a mention so if you or LK can point out anything im missing that would be great.   We could begin the story in 1948 with the then youthful UN setting up its Economic Commission for Latin American, headed by Raul Prebisch.  They often call Prebisch the South American Keynes, but thats more because  he was of similar status as an economic evangelists rather than as he held the same views.  He inspired  a wave of young economists who helped organise a golden era of development across the continent that lasted until the mid 60s.  Although his ideas drew strength  from Keynes he's never called a Keynesian as far as Im aware? He was already an expert practioner before the General Theory was published, though at that stage much more of a senior trade negotiator for Argentina than an economist.   His economics had several points of departure from Keynes, being optimised to the needs of developing nations He was more socialist, and more focused on international trade , especially protectionism.  (though still arguably a moderate, his students were  often much more progressive & protectionist than he was).   All the IPE papers ive read on the subject draw a distinction between  his Developmentalist economics and Keynesianism.   Granted there was a similar intellectual attack by our pal Friedman,  and it was supported by some in the US administration even as early as 1955 when at home  they were becoming ever more convinced that Keynes was right. But  political types  were motivated not against the Keynesian element but as they feared the socialist tendencies might develop into full on communism.  They set up a university in Santiago that later spawned franchise in other South American counties, and they gave scholarships so some of the best students good attend the University of Chicago itself.  However,  though many  bright young South American were convinced and became ardent advocates of the free market,  they were ineffectual in  influencing decision makers or penetrating Latin Governments.    That didn't happen until various coups brought right wing governments into power.  There's disagreement as to the degree of US involvement, but certainly the resulting shift to the free market  often tended to favour foreign business interests.   Just as free market fundamentalism gained ascendency without triumphing intellectually,   so was it driven back.  Unlike the rest of the world,  this was happening on a major scale before the current crises.   A very pleasing alliance of spirit filled believers often working under the mighty banner of Christian Socialism were striving hand in hand with pragmatists like Da Silva and with atheist communists to push through progressive changes .   The storys much more about politics , praxis and power plays and far less about economic theory. Theres  a strong spiritual dimension , but I guess folk dont expect to learn about this sort of thing on any encyclopaedia and any way Im not seeing how link it to Keynes.


 * "Others have argued it was not so much excessive Keynesian activism that caused the economic problems of the 1970s but the breakdown of the Bretton Woods system of capital controls, which allowed capital flight from countries the markets viewed as excessively Keynesian or socially progressive" Who?
 * The American Prospect i guess as the writer is a co editor there. Im seem to remember reading the idea several times years back in some serious sources, will see what I can find.


 *  Economics: The Keynesian Resurgence of 2008–2009 the first paragraph is very well paced. The second paragraph spends a great deal of time talking about international coordination for stimulus plans.  Too much focus on that element of the resurgence?
 * Will work on the second paragraph, but there was  has been considerable high level agreement that international co-ordination was a key element of the response.
 * It was, but it occupies a HUGE part of a biography of Keynes here...where it maybe shouldn't. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "The works on Keynes of Hyman Minsky,[11] Robert Skidelsky,[7] Donald Markwell[44] and Axel Leijonhufvud[45] were widely cited.[citation needed] Other prominent Keynesian economists include Paul Krugman, Robert Reich, Joseph Stiglitz." This is an oddly phrased sentence. What is it meant to say?
 * It wasnt myself or LK who added that section. I guess the editors felt their work was an important element of the resurgence.  Ill try and find the requested cite and otherwise might remove those lines and have them just in the main article.
 * It's just an oddly phrased sentence. I guess the editor was trying to say that 'here are these guys who think Keynes is still relevant and important', but it is awkward as written. Protonk (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Economist and current prime Minster of India Manmohan Singh spoke powerfully in favour of Keynesian fiscal stimuli at the 2008 G-20 Washington summit" Is it necessary that we say "powerfully"?
 * Guess not, will remove.


 * International Relations This is a throwaway section and can probably be merged somewhere.
 * Will give it a go. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Overall
I'm going to place this article on hold. The minor stuff can be fixed at any pace, so long as some bulk of it is dealt with I'll pass the article, but the major problems need to be hammered out. I didn't give line by line recommendations for the criticism sections because I think they need to be totally reworked. I'm happy to talk about any of the recommendations above, all I ask is that you thread responses to individual concerns where at all possible. Thanks and good work on the article! Protonk (talk) 22:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OMG! OMG! OMG!! This wasnt exactly what i was exspecting.  Thanks for the very detailed review, I'll try to address all your comments soon. FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks again for the review. Ill be coming back soon to respond to your points in total.  Then depending on any  answers I hope to edit  the article probably on Sunday to address concerns.  I'll try to do all edits at once to ensure the article still works as a whole.  Just want to make a general point on the suggestions for new inclusions.  Please correct me if Im wrong,  but my understanding is we should be aiming to keep to the 82KB size limit?  Ive not seen a longer article as a FA candidate though several seem to come in at exactly 82KB.  So even as it stands the article needs some  trimming, and would need further trimming  to make room for any new additions.   For this reason im reluctant to make substantial new additions unless anything central has been missed out,   but will still respond to the specific suggestions above. FeydHuxtable (talk) 10:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Readable prose clocks in at 44kb (that's because there are so many blockquotes) prose including blockquotes clocks in at 67kb. Those, I think, are the important benchmarks, rather than file size or total text size.  Admittedly I don't spend any time at FAC, but Harvey Milk is probably a good idea for an upper limit on size.  BTW, I'm using this tool to check page size. Protonk (talk) 16:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks that good to know. I replied again to some of the points above prefixing with (2ndreply) each time so you can quickly find the responces. Thanks again for your input, which is really improving the article. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Passing as GA

I'll pass this article, as it meets the GA criteria. I want to thank you and LK (among others) for writing this and you, FeydHuxtable for responding so passionately to criticism above. I still feel that the mathematics and economics of keynes should play some larger role in this biography (I guess I should write that Keynes and math article, eh?) and I still feel that the criticism section needs to be reworked, but those are issues for FA, not GA. Thanks for your help (I should get those image tags up to date whenever I get that book). Protonk (talk) 18:48, 19 August 2009 (UTC)