Talk:John McGraw/Archive 1

Record
There are some ambiguous statements about his record. For instance: "He walked over 100 times three times..." Does this mean that he walked over 100 times during each of three years? Or is it something else? Please, someone rephrase this for clarity. --Trevor Burnham 05:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no move — Mets501 (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
John McGraw (baseball) → John McGraw — Baseball Hall of Famer is easily most recognizable. Disambiguation page can be moved to John McGraw (disambiguation) but it only has one other blue link so it could be turned into a dablink instead. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * ''Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.


 * Oppose - there would need to be an over-riding reason for this move and I don't see it. The existing arrangements are perfectly clear. There is no reason why the red link might not be blued in the future. BlueValour 04:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, most common name rule and primary topic rule are satisfied. Move disambiguation page to John McGraw (disambiguation). The Cornell McGraw is an importnat topic but somewhat obscure. --Dhartung | Talk 11:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose. Given that we have a founder of Cornell University and a Governor of Washington, I'm not convinced that moving the dab is the correct action.  Vegaswikian 19:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose. A google search for ""John McGraw" governor washington -giants" gives about 500 hits.  Googling ""John McGraw" cornell -giants" gives 1270 hits.  A google search for ""John McGraw" brigadier -giants" gives 269 hits.  There is also an artist in Colorado, a Physics Prof in NM, and an author that might get pages at some point.  McGraw Hall is a beautiful old building on the main quad at Cornell; McGraw Tower is the main clock tower (I just updated John McGraw (merchant)). Brholden 21:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Response to : per WP:D, the most common target for a "John McGraw" search should be at John McGraw. According to Google, the Cornell founder only gets 1,480 hits, of which few appear to actually be for the Cornell founder. A search for the baseball player gets 64,700 hits, even if I include both "baseball" and "Giants" in the crteria. It's not even close. The red link doesn't count IMHO since it's a red link. If the governor article is created and appears to be more likely a target, then move this back. —Wknight94 (talk) 05:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Just a quick reminder that folks seem to be focusing more on the quantity of other John McGraw's but not the likelihood of anyone searching for them. That latter criteria is supposed to take precedence according to WP:D. It's fine if you think a search for "John McGraw" is just as likely to be for the Washington governor as opposed to the baseball player but, given the fact that the governor didn't even have an article when I started this move request, that seems unlikely. Bringing up John McGraws that aren't even listed in the current disambiguation page is even worse IMHO. There are tons of other Dick Clarks in the world and two others in Dick Clark (disambiguation) but Dick Clark still goes to the entertainer (yes, as a redirect but that's because of a bad move done nine months ago which I'm also trying to rectify). —Wknight94 (talk) 22:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Number of hits should not be in and of itself the deciding factor here. There is a built in bias based on a wikipedia entry and its links which tend to inflate the number of hits.  Both from the entries here and the many shadows.  I'm not convinced that moving the dab is the right ting to do.  The page now has three articles linked.  I suspect that one of those was a result of this discusion. Vegaswikian 21:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I would agree with you except the numbers are overwhelming. The Google hits for the new entry are only at 930 - even less than the Cornell guy - and still quite a few of them are for the baseball player/manager.  The most likely search target is pretty much the only thing to weigh and a 40-1 disparity is pretty hard to ignore IMHO.  The number of entries in the dab page alone should also not be an indicator, as per John Adams. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem is that you simply cannot use Ghits to compare the importance of a sportsman with the other two. There is such a systemic bias in favour of sportsmen, pop stars etc that a 19th centuary governor is always going to lose out big time, as here. BlueValour 23:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you have an alternative? To me, the merchant would probably get a few delete votes at an WP:AFD and the governor's level of notability can be determined by the fact that, without this move request, he may have never had an article.  But that's the last I'll say on the subject.  Maybe I'm way off and I'm in a few too many simultaneous holy wars at the moment! :)  —Wknight94 (talk) 00:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Early years
McGraw came from a poor home and ran away young after half his family died from an epidemic (his father took it out on him). He offered his instructions as a coach at St. Bonaventure in exchange for attending classes..but he wasn't a college man. Flynn 81.108.161.84 (talk) 18:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Major overhaul is in progress
I'm attempting to do some major work on this article. I've already significantly expanded it, added a ref, and reworked the images. I would ultimately like to see this become a Featured Article. Any help that others want to offer in this endeavor would be appreciated. S. Dean Jameson 06:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Also preparing to move the page
There should be very little debate that this John McGraw is by far the most notable, and should have the main John McGraw page pointing to him, with a disambig link at the top. Why this was not done two years ago is beyond me. S. Dean Jameson 06:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have bold-ly moved the information, as the actual page could not be moved by a non-administrator. S. Dean Jameson 06:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Ideas for improving the article

 * Expand the subsections on his personal life after age 17, if sources can be found for doing so, especially regarding his home life, and the tragic death of his young wife in 1899.
 * Expand the subsections for his baseball career in the majors and as a manager. This should be simple enough to do, as there is no lack of sources.
 * Expand the "Posthumous honors" section, if possible. I'm sure he has parks, fields, and the like named after him that we could mention, if appropriate.
 * Find more free images for use in the article. It would be a coup if we could find a non-baseball image of him with one of his two wives for the "Personal life" section.
 * More sources, more sources, more sources! :)
 * Copyediting never hurts. I'm usually pretty good with grammar, but my forte is writing prettily and well, not doing the grind of copyediting.

Other ideas for improvement? S. Dean Jameson 02:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * From the above, it appears I may be having a conversation with myself, which is rather embarassing. S. Dean Jameson
 * Heh heh, no you're not. I may have time to take a look before long, but I don't right now.  I have this on my watchlist so I've seen you putting in a lot of time here!  You may want to drop a note at WT:MLB for more dedicated attention.  —Wknight94 (talk) 11:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I know. I've just never undertaken such a large project, and it's a bit strange to see all of the recent talkpage comments, and almost all of the mainpage edits be from me, that's all. I hope I didn't sound petulant in my previous. S. Dean Jameson 15:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's good to let other people know what you're doing, and that way they won't start doing the same kind of overhaul in their sandbox. Then you'd be doing the same work. That would waste time, effort, and money; which is never a good thing.  Black  ngold29   15:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hopefully, by "letting others know", it will bring more eyes on the article, and more sources to be used as well. Feel like pitching in? S. Dean Jameson 15:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't promise anything major, but I'll see what I can do. Have you checked out Google books at all? You can see pages from the ones that say "Limited preview", it's a pretty good resource to use.  Black  ngold29   15:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I used that for the extensive references to John McGraw. And any help you can give would be greatly appreciated. S. Dean Jameson 16:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * One thing I would recomend is using citation templats. I've always found it easier, and if you cite a book multiple times you should just use the "Shortend version" (you can find examples of that on The Hobbit). They aren't required, but I've always found them easier. I could do them if you want me to.  Black  ngold29   16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If you would do it, that would great. I am a writer, and I hate doing the format for refs and things like that. I know the basics of ref and /ref, and how to place links, but otherwise, I have no patience for all of that. S. Dean Jameson 16:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm more of a writer too, I will need the page numbers from the "John McGraw" book. It's better to start now when there aren't very many.  Black  ngold29   16:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The way I've done it, I read portions of the book, and then come back and write sections in the article based upon that reading, sourcing it at the end of the section to the book I'm using. I feel the writing is better and more flowing that way. Is that acceptable practice? S. Dean Jameson 16:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That's exactly how I write. What I mean by the page numbers is that you said, "McGraw described his new home upon his arrival as "a dirty, dreary, ramshackle sort of place."[11]. It is cited to the "John McGraw" book, which is good. But the book has 371 pages, so that single quote would be difficult to find, so to make it easier the page number needs to be included in the citation.  Black  ngold29   17:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay, I see what you're needing. The "dirty" quote comes from page 22. The longer block quote about his debacle in his first minor league game is from page 16. Thanks for your help! S. Dean Jameson 17:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What about "It was McGraw's relationship with Bert Kenney that would precipitate his professional playing career.[3]"?  Black  ngold29   17:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(undent) That just happened to be the last sentence before the ref that I used as the source for all of my additions to that section. It's my own words for what the book mentioned about the Kenney/McGraw relationship. S. Dean Jameson 17:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What about the page where it talks about their relationship? Just something close.  Black  ngold29   17:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It talks about Kenney and McGraw's pre-minor league relationship from the bottom of page 13 through page 15. However, as I said, I only intended this as something of a general citation for all of the above writing I had done. That writing was based on the portion between pages 9 and 15 in the book, if that helps at all. Thanks again for doing all of this. S. Dean Jameson 18:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the ndashes, and added the meta data for this article. Small work I admit, but let me know if you want more assistance, career stats box, etc.Neonblak (talk) 18:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)