Talk:John Mulholland (director)

unsourced 1
the following is unsourced and shouldn't be in the article until it is:

Among two of Mulholland's unrealized documentaries at ARTS were one on author James Baldwin, and another on the gay subculture within the Harlem Renaissance. Mulholland wanted to focus on such artists as: Langston Hughes, Richard Bruce Nugent, Countee Cullen, Claude Mckay, Wallace Thurman, and Alice Dunbar-Nelson, among others. He shelved both when Arts & Entertainment took over the ARTS Network.

- Jytdog (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * This was more than 20 years ago, so can't imagine where I'd find any corroborating sourses. ARTS was taken over by Arts & Entertainment and swallowed whole. Go ahead and deep six it, no real import to it.Johnenyc (talk) 20:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC) Johnenyc (talk) 20:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * ok, great. thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:12, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

unsourced 2: LGBT categories
I noticed Mulholland's entry at our List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people: M list-article, found the sourcing there to fail the reliable sources guideline a couple of ways, went looking for reliable sources per BLP identifying Mulholland as gay, and didn't find any,  and removed the entry. I struggle with the categories being placed on this article in the absence of reliable sources, not to mention content in the article. Are there reliable sources for his sexual orientation? Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Will get back to you on this, what there is in interviews about my sexuality, being gay, from recent past. Thanks much! Johnenyc (talk) 20:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC) Johnenyc (talk) 20:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * thanks! Jytdog (talk) 20:12, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I used to be active in SAGE, the organization assisting aging LGBT women and men. Here is a link to something I wrote on the site, with a pic of me and my partner. The intention was to write a column twice monthly, but I dropped it because I was traveling a lot, and it rankled that I was doing the very thing I supposedly disliked -- promoting my gayness. Not sure this serves to vet my homosexuality, but here is the link; found it archived:

Mulholland story

Will continue to scour the net. Had done an interview with a Black Gay Man's site, but the site is gone. There have been times when I'm promoting a documentary that I am asked about my sexuality. I refuse to answer, I am there to promote my work, not to discuss how I feel about this-or-that as a gay guy. When my Elmore Leonard doc opens this Fall, same thing will happen. And I will give the same answer. Amazing that people care so much.

Appreciate all your effort and endurance! Thanks much.Johnenyc (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2016 (UTC) Johnenyc (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * That source will do for me. It would be best for the quality of the encyclopedia to have an independent source, but since you are not contesting this I doubt anyone else will.   I have added this as an External link, and it will serve as a source that justifies the category.  OK? Jytdog (talk) 23:24, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * btw, I went hunting for sources about your sexual orientation and there is just not much out there. I am glad you found even this. it was very helpful. Jytdog (talk) 23:25, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * See how you added SAGE story to external links. Works for me, someone can open it, unaware what it is, serves to introduce reader to my gay bona fides, so to speak. If interested, can read on, if not, close it.


 * Also, thanks for removing the Personal Lives/Mulholland is gay. Also understand that if it ends up as Talk discussion, there will be valid arguments for its inclusion on my page. I realize that I do not control the page, and undisputed facts belong on the page. I am gay, which is all the statement is attesting. There is no argument about its truth. And probably, if I am objective, "Mulholland is gay" belongs on my page. It is not slurring me, nor is it accusing me of anything untoward. It is saying in plain English no more than what the LGBT/Gay categories are saying. And, I guess, what the SAGE link attests. So, while I have very little sound argument about keeping it off, I nonetheless hope it remains off.


 * About finding gay references -- interviews, talks, reviews, etc. -- on the net, I work overtime at stemming the tide, my finger in the dykes. Have missed some, but several of which were prominent, columns I wrote, interviews I gave, the sites are long gone. As are the links.


 * Thanks for all of your attention to my little drop of sand in the Wikipedia universe. Johnenyc (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2016 (UTC) Johnenyc (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * That all makes sense. Thanks so much for continuing to be gracious and reasonable.  Content in any Wikipedia article is based on what reliable sources say -- it all comes down to sources.  As I looked and looked and found no mention of your being gay in reliable sources (I again appreciate you turning up that SAGE source), in my view, including reference to your being gay in this article is what we call "undue weight".  I removed that content because it was unsourced, but even if were, in my view it is undue weight.  I would be open to discussing that, of course... anyway.  Thanks again! Jytdog (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

unsourced 3
The following is unsourced and should not be in the article until it is..

Mulholland has begun revisiting a documentary which he had previously shelved: the Harlem Renaissance. Research is in the very preliminary stages; he is in the middle of his Elmore Leonard documentary. Working with Candle Johnson, educator and historian on black culture, Mulholland will focus on the importance and legacy of the lesbian and gay impact on the Harlem Renaissance.

- Jytdog (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * When I put this into play, will send reliable sourcing. Am in the middle of documentary and won't be finished until late summer. At which point will set up legal framework. Right now, am gathering background, emailing possible on camera participants, etc. Johnenyc (talk) 20:04, 9 March 2016 (UTC) Johnenyc (talk) 20:04, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * sounds good. thank you again. please know that for WP we need independent sources, so not the documentary's website nor press releases.  Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 20:13, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Personal Life
Understood why this was deleted in the past, but now, with the external link to his article about aging as a gay man, and several lgbt categories added, not sure why this is not valid. It merely states on the main page what is already confirmed under links and categories. It is what personal life is here for, no? If this is mulholland's doing, he really shouldn't be in a position to dictate what is on his mainpage. he is openly gay, not like we're forcing him out of the closet. Chrish65 (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2016 (UTC) Chrish65 (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Per WP:UNDUE we give space in the article based on weight in reliable sources. We have the thinnest of reeds to hang the categories on; it doesn't bear the explicit sentence.  If you can find more reliable sources that discuss this I would be open to changing my mind. I am not mulholland as should be completely clear to you. Jytdog (talk) 22:58, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * deleted three categories on lgbt subjects. I had added them, now feel they are unnecessary and do not add to anything on the main page bio. I am afraid I am as guilty as others in forcing this upon him, LGBt area. I looked up Wikipedia BLP, and unless categories support what is within the main page bio, they do not belong. The main page bio here is very precise and specific in what it covers. I do not know if Mulholland has seen these additional categories (have not been in touch, as have been cautioned about), but neither the external link from Sage nor these categories support the bio. Why are they here? they do not let us see how he writes or directs any clearer. They do not let us see what he has written and directed any clearer. I am embarrassed that I have become a part of this.Collier09 (talk) 13:45, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Okay, got the picture. Not trying to be a villain here. Was part of building this bio page. Guess I have blinders on with certain things. Don't know the man from Adam, but like his docs, a lot. But it is true that there is nothing on the bio page about lgbt, nor does it have anything to do with work. So, I will delete the lgbt categories I added. Are we permitted to delete the sage external link? Nothing to do with the bio either. Sorry if I've offended anyone, sure did not mean to. Funny, he hasn't chimed in since all these categories went up last week.Chrish65 (talk) 22:55, 15 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't think much about categories, so whether they are there, or not, I don't much care.  They did seem to be useful, but there was no support anywhere in the article for them.  As you can see from the discussion with John above, he dug up the Sage piece, and agreed to include it as an EL. (I think it is useful there too - I was the one who put it there).  In my view, the EL supports the categories and I don't see a need to remove them.   But like I said, categories are not important to me so please do as you like with them. Jytdog (talk) 23:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Have to delete sage article. Two reasons. First, Robert in the photo, only signed release for Sage site. He is gone now and in any case would not agree to sign a release for this. Second, wouldn't matter anyway since Sage does not permit deleted pages to appear on a third-party site after having been deleted. Do not want to violate Wikipedia rules, nor do I want to run afoul of Sage, with whom I have a fine relationship, so would someone else please delete it in a timely fashion. Thanks!Johnenyc (talk) 18:31, 16 March 2016 (UTC) Johnenyc (talk) 18:31, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * yes the original link is dead. I deleted the EL. Jytdog (talk) 21:28, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Johnenyc (talk) 23:05, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

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