Talk:John Pyne

Another source
Another source with the same text is: -- PBS (talk) 17:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A visitation of the seats and arms of the noblemen and gentlemen ..., Volume 2, By Bernard Burke, p. 57

Requested move 15 November 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus --  JHunterJ (talk) 13:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

– Although the John Pyne (disambiguation) page has only two WP:DABMENTIONs and one other entry {John Pyne (16th century MP)}, there is no indication that the 17th century MP has sufficient historical notability to force the attachment of "(disambiguation)" to the base name. The "See also" John Pine may well be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but instances of differently-spelled primaries are rare, with one recent example being Frankie Howard (footballer)/Frankie Howerd. If MOS suggests the hyphenated forms "(16th-century MP)/(17th-century MP)" then, of course, I support using hyphens. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * John Pyne → John Pyne (17th century MP)
 * John Pyne (disambiguation) → John Pyne
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. At the moment, appears to be the primary topic. The only other one with an article has a single line and was only briefly an MP, as opposed to this chap's seventeen years. However, if moved it should be to John Pyne (Poole MP), our standard disambiguator. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment. Since John Pyne (16th century MP) has been moved to John Pyne (Lyme Regis MP), I am revising my original nomination so that it should appear as John Pyne → John Pyne (Poole MP) [per Necrothesp], while retaining the second part of the nomination — John Pyne (disambiguation) → John Pyne, although it still appears that if there is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it should be the similarly-pronounced designer, engraver and cartographer John Pine. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * But is anyone really going to look for John Pine by typing the far less common John Pyne? Given pine is a normal English word and pyne is not. The spelling difference here is perfectly sufficient for disambiguation. It is the reverse of the Frankie Howard/Frankie Howerd situation, where the best-known person was the one who used the non-standard spelling. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Those searching for the engraver would presimably simply type the commonly spelled "John Pine" and arrive at his entry, which carries the properly-placed and necessary hatnote — "For those of a similar name, see [the uncommonly spelled] John Pyne (disambiguation)." The second part of the nomination posits that the parenthetical qualifier "(disambiguation)" is unnecessary since no one named "John Pyne" possesses sufficient historical notability for rising to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
 * If arguments are put forth, with no consensus emerging (as in the case of John Nutt (disambiguation) or David Jack (disambiguation)) that the John Pyne dab page does indeed have a primary topic, then the argument for primary would seem to be in favor of the "See also" entry listing the differently [commonly] spelled engraver, rather than the historically obscure 17th-century Poole MP.
 * As for Frankie Howard (footballer)/Frankie Howerd, the nomination there contends that those searching for the comedian would simply type "Frankie Howerd" and arrive at the desired article, thus making the hatnote atop the comedian's entry — "Frankie Howard" redirects here. For the English footballer, see Frankie Howard (footballer). For the American politician, see Frankie Howard (Louisiana politician). — superfluous since, unlike those searching for John Pyne who would type the standard spelling "John Pine", no one searching for the footballer or the politician would type the non-standard spelling "Frankie Howerd".
 * On the other hand, those mistyping the comedian's name as "Howard", would arrive at the footballer's page, where the actually necessary hatnote — "For the comedian, see Frankie Howerd. For the American Frankie Howard, see Frank Howard (Louisiana politician). — would sort out any confusion. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:27, 20 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Necrothesp. DrKay (talk) 22:04, 22 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.