Talk:John Randolph of Roanoke

Creeping nationalism
...creeping Federalism and nationalism should be shortened to creeping nationalism. Federalism has a capacity to be a misnomer, and it might confuse readers about the connotation of Federalism and lead to presumption. Randolph was not against the federal character of the Union and stood for its preservation, but he was not for the ideology of the Federalist Party by any means.

Barton's claims
No one seems to have attempted to put it here yet, but on Keith Ellison (politician) a user has inserted a claim by David Barton for Wallbuilders.org that Randolph was a Muslim when elected to Congress in 1799 (and therefore that Ellison is not the first Muslim Representative). Barton seems to be the sole source of this claim, and his quoted source is The Life of John Randolph of Roanoke (vol. II) by Hugh A. Garland. The book does exist, see here and here, and I was able to access a ten-page excerpt through JSTOR that was reprinted in the William & Mary Quarterly in 1915. The excerpt concerns Randolph's school days and unfortunately does not include the page cited by Barton (p. 102) -- it makes no mention of any religion.

From what I've read about Barton's work (see his page), there is reason to be skeptical about his claims -- but to be rigorous, and to forestall edit wars, does anyone have access to the Garland biography?

Three white leopards 05:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Update: The book is on Google Books. Page 102, which is the only citation given by Barton in support of his claim, says only:

"Very early in life I imbibed an absurd prejudice in favor of Mahomedanism and its votaries. The crescent had a tailsmanic effect on my imagination, and I rejoiced in all its triumphs over the cross (which I despised) as I mourned over its defeats; and Mahomet II Himself did not more exult than I did, when the crescent was planted on the dome of St. Sophia, and the cathedral of the Constantines was converted into a Turkish mosque. To this very day I feel the effects of Peter Randolph’s Zanga on a temper naturally impatient of injury, but insatiably vindictive under insult."

There is no way to infer from this alone that Randolph was ever actually a Muslim, and therefore no reason to give Barton's claim (which is also self-published and therefore not an accepted source, as he is founder and president of WallBuilders ) any credibility. -Three white leopards 07:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I have added information from wiki-reliable sources that state he was always an Episcopalian.--Wowaconia 04:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Religion segment
The segment on Randolph's religion should remain as it reflects the reason Randolph, an otherwise obscure figure, is currently in the news in 2007. Visitors to this page will be seeking this information in particular. The sources cited are all up to wiki-standards and the quotes are from Randolph's biographers revealing information about him. His biographers went into pages and pages of information about his religion - so much data that even a full sub-page that is linked to in this article does not come close to. His religious journey was seen as particularly notable by every biographer writing about him.
 * --Wowaconia 17:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Randolph's religion seems to have played little part in his political life, and had little influence on others. So why pay disproportionate attention? The nonsense about being a Muslim was never stated by a credible source and does not need extended refutation.  Rjensen 09:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not have a problem with the current layout, as previously the religion segment was removed and a sentence or two incorporated into the "Outsider status" segment. With its own segment intrested parties can click on it directly from the table of contents and go to the sub-page from the link there. I would point out that this article is a biography of all aspects of the man and should not be limited to "his political life" or "influence on others", Randolph hid his severe depression that centered around religous issues from all but a handful of friends, but these severe episodes kept him homebound for months on end. Though this was hidden to prevent others from seeing it, its still a major aspect of his life.--Wowaconia 16:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to piety "colored by his own eccentricities", as it wasn't clear whether the example about taking communion was an example of Randolph's piety or eccentricty. Sir rupert orangepeel (talk) 01:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Eccentricity and Outsider Status
Organization aside, what does the following mean? I'm hesitant to delete it until I understand where it's coming from: "Despite being a Virginia gentleman, one of the great orators in the history of Caroline, and House leader..." History of Caroline? Is this supposed to read "...history of Congress"? Jperrylsu 00:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I suspect the sentence mistook this man for another pro-slavery orator of the day, John Taylor of Caroline, meaning Caroline County, Virginia. Correcting this mistake and others in this article might require actually reading a book length bio of this man. Here's a short blog bio that seems to indicate this man had no connection with Caroline County, and frankly I believe he was gay. http://randomthoughtsonhistory.blogspot.com/2017/07/mattoax-plantation.html I write here because I don't know when or if I can address these deficiencies. Several years ago, a guy who bragged about being part of a nationwide group of hackers, investors and attorneys threatened me and ordered me to "shut up online." While I initially thought that either puffery or venom like this man, the group seems quite lively recently. Today's google search for Mattoax plantation where he was raised gave multiple website down messages for a Swem Library/College of William and Mary page, and my previous edit today seems to have prompted a web based scammer call from Pennsylvania area code 878, declining which prompted unidentified calls from Virginia area code 703 and Delaware area code 302. Plus, Monday's early edits on other articles prompted someone to change my email password, which blocked my email access for nearly 18 hours despite correctly submitting my password several times.Jweaver28 (talk) 15:55, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Biography Summary Box Should Include Randolph's House Service
The biography box at the top right of the page mentions Randolph's service in the Senate but not his service in the House. How do we add that? bszoka (talk) 02:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Mumps?
Surely the strange illness in childhood that left him beardless and high-voiced would have been the mumps? BeeTea (talk) 04:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I, too, wonder about this one. Even though it would seem that Klinefelter's is a good fit here, I would be more comfortable with a solid reference from an authoratative source concerning the possibility that Randolph had Klinefelter's syndrome.--Paraballo (talk) 03:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Since Klinefelter's is genetic, it is not a acquired illness -- thus if Randolph's condition was the result of a "strange illness in childhood" it was not Klinefelter's. Mikedelsol (talk) 08:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I found some talk about this in sources, both in discussions about him being impotent: William Cabell Bruce, 1922, G.P. Putnam's Sons,New York, NY John Randolph of Roanoke 1773-1833, A Biography based largely on new material

quoting The Charlottesville Progress, Aug. 26,1918 "we entertain no doubt that his want of masculine vigor in his later life was caused by mumps or some other wasting disease"

He also points out that he wasn't always unable to grow facial hair, citing from the Clay papers, in Libr. Cong. "June, 1830" & "Memo. of Finances" "It is certain at all events that, in one of his communications to John Randolph Clay, he speaks of having been in the habit of shaving himself when he was a youth in Philadelphia."

American Heritage: Part 5, American Association for State and Local History, Society of American Historians "That his impotentance followed an attack of scarlet fever, or of measles or mumps, as his biographers have variously suggested"

Hope this helpsWowaconia (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Career. Slave Power symbol?
from text not clear how he was a symbol of slave power..

Should slave power link to slave power wiki page?

>>>John Greenleaf Whittier's poem "Randolph of Roanoke," although written after the Virginian had become a symbol of "slave power," captures his strange brilliance: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stampdxer (talk • contribs) 09:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

"history of Caroline"
Reiterating Jperrylsu's nearly six-year-old post. Who is Caroline and how is she associated with oratory? Mrgate3 (talk) 12:51, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Randolph, TN
In the Legacy & Honors section, Randolph, TN was also named for him. Though now obscure, the antebellum town was an important early river port, shipping more cotton than Memphis, and had an important ferry across the Mississippi before the bridges were built at Memphis, so this was no small honor. rags (talk) 10:57, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

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more work needed
I took the liberty of reorganizing this article while at Fairfax's very good genealogical library yesterday, although my phone's update (the reason for the visit) failed. I don't know when I'll have time to fix this and related articles, including that for St. George Tucker, for such probably also requires reading biographies of Nancy Randolph and possible sources available only at the Library of Virginia, College of William and Mary and/or the Library of Congress (two being far away and the last with major parking issues). Plus, my cyberbullies have returned. At least this article now reflects that Randolph's eldest brother also manumitted slaves, and includes a ref to that well-done book about Israel Hill, which I am reading in what little spare time I have, since no audio version appears available. I believe Tucker's influence led to both sets of emancipations, and suspect that John's "mommy issues" (following the death of their very capable mother Frances Bland Randolph Tucker in 1788) or attempt to bully the widowed Judith Randolph may have led him to accuse her sister (the brothers' sister-in-law) Nancy Randolph of poisoning Richard Randolph (and kicking her out of that Prince Edward County plantation) more than a decade before his "conversion" already discussed in the article and this talk page. Frankly, I'm disappointed that neither this article nor that for St. George Tucker elucidates their respective slaveholdings, for I believe farming using enslaved labor was the major source of annual income for each man. For what it's worth, I was surprised during a recent trip to the Library of Virginia for other research that its ancestry.com version now includes only materials from its collection, thus not federal census records. I (and others) probably can get the info from the versions available at other libraries--but again I write here because I don't know when I get to such libraries during open hours despite my other obligations and priorities.Jweaver28 (talk) 13:17, 8 October 2021 (UTC)