Talk:John Rutter

Untitled
Re. "modern harmonies and sounds", puzzling both to User:Camembert and to me: is it possible that User:Fishal means not that Rutter's music is crammed with 20th-century-style dissonances, but rather that Rutter likes to borrow idioms from contemporary popular music? That would accord with my hearing of the Requiem, which is the only Rutter work I know.

Opus33 23:22, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * That is indeed what I meant. I am no music scholar; I just created the stub becuase I had sung so many of his compositions in a choir I was in.  Thank you for spotting that and reading my mind.  Fishal 09:08, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * User:Wilus modified the text a while ago to reflect this; I think (s)he's got it right, but you might want to check the bit about it being specifically the 50's and 60's that are Rutter's inspiration. Cheers, Opus33 16:06, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Knowing John a little, having sung under him a good few times, his essence comes from the same love of the Orthodox his school colleague John Taverner had. Taverner, two school years ahead of John, had actually sparked his composition: he tells how he made up his mind, "If Taverner can do that, so can I." The Shepherds' Pipe Carol was the fruit. He himself boasts he's six generations from Beethoven - and every one of those is a substantial composer in his own right. If anything, it's because contemporary pop borrows from them! We speak a common language, music.
 * I'm going to intrude just a little, because I was a decade behind them, in a very similar school, Alleyns, in south-east London. Both had been involved with Britten, in Alleyns' case less happily, because the relationship ended acrimoniously over safeguarding issues during the premiere of The Turn of the Screw. It wrecked the choir, but I was mentored in voice break by Brenda Evans, Sir Geraint's wife, in the launderette, and passed it on to David Roblou, similarly a choir colleague: we bridged the gap. He became a top baroque voice coach. Being more stage-oriented, I turned my hand to production (for instance, host SM of Queen the Saturday Bohemian Rhapsody hit).
 * The issue of style content isn't so much one of what it is as what it isn't. It isn't anarchic. It isn't dodecacophonic. Indeed, there's a wicked skit on Youtube, "I can't believe it's not Rutter" which takes him happily apart - the joke's a riff on an add for a table spread, I can't believe it's not butter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO357asBTgA. What had happened is working choristers had tired of the pretence of Cage and Stockhausen. We were signing up to the Early Music scene in hordes. Emma Kirkby and Catherine Bott were wiping the floor with coloratura sopranos, who'd pretty much exhausted the technique. Maddy Prior was subtly bringing the American Folk scene back into the English scene of Vaughan Williams - I'm a backing singer in her Methodist incarnation, as part of the Carnival Band. I was in the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, transcribing the US folksongs of the 1960s in what suddenly became ABC notation. Then at the cutting edge of Christian rock, learning from the Beatles Roadies. The Wesleys are buried in the Churchyard where John Rutter was baptised, a few doors down from the Globe, where he likely played as a toddler. But even before that, our music shop in Petts Wood was the starting point of David Bowie, and an adolescent Emma Johnson, and Kate Bush: not all at once, but my point is, it was a melting pot. The Hollies in Catford. Genesis in Caterham. Siouuxsie Sue, Pixie Lott. My point is everyone scrambled together. We had a common grounding in classics, but each did their own thing, because it was dying.
 * It wasn't as if age was a handicap. Aged 14 I found the Uniforms for Oh! What A Lovely War, bringing touches of the Music Hall in. 19, I was on the team launching Mike Oldfield and Kraftwerk to Radio One.
 * Within this sea of Tin Pan Alley, the Music Colleges were soon faced with an explosion of new talent blocked from rock by an A&R edict in 1977 announcing there was no money in the old styles, everything going to Punk and Hip-Hop, so those who could made their own way. Andrew Lloyd Webber on the stage, working from his father's foundations. The rebirth of the Rock Opera. A raft of composers returning to simpler styles: Sir Karl Jenkins, crossing from Soft Machine to pick up a thread from the 1430s, for example.
 * As I speak, Handel's Verdi Prati is playing. This, and the champetre movement of the 18th century, is what informs John Rutter. Basic melody, with harmony answering.
 * Where you're lost is that you were tricked into believing it was crap. Genesis In The Air is back because it wasn't. The drum lead almost at the end isn't outrageous, it's stagecraft. You keep the best to the end! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 23:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

French essay on John Rutter from University of Ottawa
I will be doing an 10 page essay on John Rutter's Requiem. I already have a bibliography of about 4 pages. Futhermore I have a 3 page analysis to do and I plan to do it on his recuring thematic material. For example the sopranos start singing in the Introit and this material can be herd in the pie jesu and obviously recures at the end of the work. A cycle of songs. I am however open to suggestions. Perhaps I could have my thesis on general deviation from Faure and or the War Requiem? (maybe to long for a 2 page analysis). Anyone? --CyclePat 02:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * For anyone interest I finished my 15 page essay on the external and internal influence on John Rutter's Requiem. Send me an email if you want to read a copy! It has a 5 page bibliogaphy! Surelly that's more information that this entire article. Some really good sources. --CyclePat 06:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Uncited comment
We really need a reliable citation for this inherently point of view comment:
 * In addition, classically-trained musicans, both in the USA and UK, are skeptical when it comes to Rutter's music. They claim it is predictable, unoriginal, and indulges too frequently in 'sickeningly-sweet' harmonies. However, the average layperson or audience attendee seems to be unaware of this aspect of Rutter's music.

Rob 19:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Rob, Indeed! Thank you for the removing this one. --CyclePat (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Beatles Concerto
There is no mention of Rutter's work in the 70's on The Beatles Concerto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.239.224 (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Next time can you please add the proper source formating! Good luck. --CyclePat (talk) 19:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't follow the logic of the different lists of his work
I couldn't understand the organization of the three lists. I suppose a carol is a distinct genre. But how does one distinguish between "Choral works" and "Anthems and other compositions"? There seems in any case to be a good deal of overlap between the 3 different lists.... Nandt1 (talk) 04:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

i would completely agree with you and think it needs to be changed so that all of the collective works come under "choral works" and the individual choral pieces that aren't christmas carols come under "anthems and other compositions". Pmcdf 20:40, 4th January 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree, and nothing has happened in years, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:34, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * It reflects his own humility. Who he's writing for. He does the great ceremonials, but also things that are accessible for beginners. He's careful not to throw the former at the latter: I was, thankfully, good enough when I returned to voice after 40 years making peace in the world. Perhaps there's no greater example than something in his bottom drawer of unpublished work. I've been present when a series of song settings he wrote for a childrens' choir foundation was performed. Stepwise, from toddlers aged 3 and 4, to early teens, the music getting more demanding as they're older. That's John to a T. Caring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 00:08, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Arditti quote
The "Reception" section includes a criticism of Rutter's style by an amateur composer, David Arditti. Though it doesn't seem to be a self-published source, it doesn't look particularly reputable either; it includes numerous errors that even a basic peer-review process would have caught (e.g. citing John "Taverner" and "Georgio" Pacchioni), and Arditti himself doesn't appear to be a prominent writer in this field (I can't find any info in secondary sources about him). I'm all for balance, but are we perhaps giving undue weight to this writer?--Lemuellio (talk) 14:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It's hardly "undue". There is otherwise no negative hint whatsoever, and Arditti makes a very balanced comment. I have sung a number of Rutter's works -- the large-scale Requiem and and Gloria are both works deserving to be in the repertoire, interesting and challenging on a moderate level. But the carols certainly call for one or two words like "facile" or "mawkish" to appear somewhere, in a not-too-strident way. I have also read quite a bit of what Rutter says about himself, and he is disarmingly frank: "I'm a commercial composer", were I think his exact words. His main customer base seems to be the loony wing of the Christian party in the southern states of the US, so giving your customers what they want is hardly a big fault. This is just my opinion; I do not do Wikilawyering. Imaginatorium (talk) 15:17, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The comment itself seems fair, but Arditti and the source are extremely marginal. People are reluctant to criticise Rutter's work on the record, however, and it might be difficult to find a more notable authority. Wilus (talk) 16:05, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * John Taverner was at school with John Rutter, two academic years ahead, and they sang together in the Choir. Taverner's first work was well received, and lit the fire in Rutter's belly: he says he thought, "If Taverner can do that, so can jolly well I" and did. Some of his American contacts are, I think, reflected in his wife's influence over him, Joanne. She always stays studiously in the shadows, but is very important in his gentility. The film of him and the swan earlier this year is him.

Both he and Taverner shared a deep love of Orthodox music, Taverner of the Greek schools, Rutter of the Cyrillic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 00:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

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Influences
I've found 2 foundation sources for you: the man himself. He's essentially homegrown, too timid from his East-End grandmother's influence to be come a choral scholar as a boy, too uncoordinated to become an instrumentalist, but fortunate to have good schooling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb8BZ93ckPE&ab_channel=ProfAlanMacfarlane-Ayabaya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_AG_QrdjYI&ab_channel=ProfAlanMacfarlane-Ayabaya

The one comment I would make is that having taken part in various come-and-sings for him in the period 2012-2016, he was less alienated from the church later than earlier, seemingly finding comfort in improvised Orthodox chant in rhe Temple Church at one point, for example. Later in his baptismal Church of St Marylebone, he seemed to identify with the community. I surmise this was a reaction to a recent exposure to the still-primitive US culture. POV, of course, just offered as guidance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 01:29, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Dead link problem
The reference for music at the coronation Classic fm returns error 410 ("Removed"; distinct from 404 which may be temporary) when I access it in my browser (in Japan). This makes a dead link. However, it turns out that if I get the same url from my server in the US, the page content is still there. There should be some kind of "Geographic limited access tag" perhaps to indicate this...? Imaginatorium (talk) 12:08, 7 May 2023 (UTC)