Talk:John Smith (flying ace)

Untitled
Is this the "Marine Ace Smith" featured on the cover of "Life" edition Dec. 7 1942? Drutt (talk) 23:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 27 March 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. Hadal (talk) 00:42, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

John Lucian Smith → John L. Smith (U.S. Marines Corps pilot) – as per, ("John Smith" OR "John Lucian Smith") (VMF-223). Changed adding "L." and dots in "U.S." as per non essential preferences GregKaye 17:34, 7 April 2015 (UTC) GregKaye 19:45, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose; "U.S." should be punctuated. bd2412  T 13:17, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose as proposed per BD2412, WP:ENGVAR failure; it should either be "U.S. Marine Corps" or "USMC" and not "US Marine Corps" -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 03:53, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose parenthetical disambiguation. Haven't we gone through "John Smith"s already? "Lucien" is more concise than "US Marine Corps" or anything similar. --George Ho (talk) 19:44, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose Lucian is a far better disambiguation then trying to make up one but if the decision is to rename then the simpler John Smith (aviator) is far better. MilborneOne (talk) 12:57, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Re Propose John L. Smith (U.S. Marines Corps pilot) or John Smith (U.S. Marines Corps pilot) as per
 * ("John Smith" OR "John L. Smith" OR "John Lucian Smith") (VMF-223) with the first 5 pages of results displaying "John L. Smith" and secondarily "John Smith" and with a single reference to "John Lucian Smith" in books
 * "John L. Smith" VMF-223 got "About 247 results" in books
 * "John Smith" VMF-223 got "About 475 results"
 * "John Lucian Smith" VMF-223 got "17 results"
 * Even in the visible search page results of that last search there was one primary, beginning of paragraph, reference as "Smith, John L."
 * Note: it is difficult to confirm the extent to which
 * Ping bd2412, 65.94.43.89, MilborneOne George Ho
 * WP:NATURAL is only meant apply in regard to "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources". "John Lucian Smith" is not commonly used.  GregKaye 00:41, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Either of those two choices work for me -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * How many hits do you get for "John Smith" and "US Marines Corps pilot"? bd2412  T 00:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Never mind that; how many links will you flood a discussion with? As said, why not "(aviator)"? It's shorter but accurate. George Ho (talk) 03:13, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * If your really dont like Lucian then I would support (aviator) as compromise but not the longer dabs. MilborneOne (talk) 08:01, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * George Ho There's nothing wrong with a flood of clarifying information and no more than the genuinely named "John Smith"/"John L. Smith" will be able to soar above. We have to call people by the names by which the were known and are remembered.  This is WP:UCRN  After that we can add an explanation which still remains in WP:AT guidelines that "The title indicates what the article is about"  How many U.S. flying aces, if they were interested in communicating and were asked the question "what do you do?", would answer "aviator"?  This doesn't even differentiate from a hot air balloonist.
 * Ping: MilborneOne GregKaye 17:44, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Some others in Category:American World War II flying aces use (pilot). MilborneOne (talk) 19:22, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Who knows this pilot generally? I never heard of this person until this discussion. --George Ho (talk) 05:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * George Ho What does that matter? An article is an article and the content has to be brought to standard.  We are meant to support the use of common name.  We are also meant to have precision and yet "(aviator)" gets proposed even when "(.. pilot)" has been mentioned.  You have a choice whether you want to be involved in any particular article clean up.  GregKaye 18:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment. As other abbreviations, United Stated should be abbreviated as "US" without periods (Manual of Style). Vlādis Mānisqā (talk) 06:18, 14 April 2015 (UTC).
 * I disagree; see Manual of Style specifically notes that "U.S." is an exception to the rule. It is almost always punctuated in Wikipedia titles. bd2412  T 16:05, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 28 June 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved to John Smith (flying ace). Other potential titles created as redirects. Jenks24 (talk) 14:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

John Lucian Smith → John Smith (flying ace) – or to John Smith (fighter pilot) or John Smith (pilot) with potential moves as per similar contents found at David Thwaites (flying ace), Christopher Magee (fighter pilot) and Lee Archer (pilot). However, with a name with the level of common usage of "John Smith", I think that the "... (flying ace)" and "... (fighter pilot)" descriptions provide more precision in addition to helpful description. As noted in the discussion above, he is commonly known as "John Smith" and, secondarily, as "John L. Smith" but rarely as "John Lucian Smith". GregKaye 07:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:NATURAL. Sovereign  / Sentinel 11:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The p / g at WP:NATURAL presents: "Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Do not, however, use obscure or made-up names." In the context that the search on: "John Smith" VMF-223 got "About 475 results" while the search on "John Lucian Smith" VMF-223 got just "17 results" I think that there is a case for interpreting "John Lucian Smith" in the obscure category. Anyone searching for "John Lucian ..." would find an auto complete option for the redirect presented as attached to the search box.  GregKaye 16:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


 * OK then Support per above. Sovereign  / Sentinel 16:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support A common name with disambiguation is preferable to a very uncommon one that is unique.--Yaksar (let's chat) 02:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Could you advise which option you support so the move can be closed? Cheers, Number   5  7  21:07, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Flying ace Sovereign Sentinel (talk) 00:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move June 2018
John Smith (flying ace) → John Lucian Smith because the above move discussions do not give sufficient consideration to reliable sources. The subject of the article is known as John Lucian Smith on his business card, Medal of Honor citation, 1942 Life Magazine story, headstone at Arlington Cemetery, Oklahoma History Center, New York Times obituary, and books. This is the most commonly used name in reliable sources suggesting its use per WP:COMMONNAME, reliable sources write out the middle name suggesting its use per WP:MIDDLENAME, it is precise per WP:CRITERIA, and consistent with natural disambiguation of WP:NATURALDIS. --Kkmurray (talk) 15:13, 30 June 2018 (UTC)