Talk:John Snow/Archive 1

I
I changed the file for the map pic to a full version of his 1854 map. Hope I did this right, haven't edited before. Also just finished reading Ghost Map and was looking for a good version of the map with the Voronoi lines... still haven't found an original. --Rewardiv 23:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a short section on his work with ether and chloroform, but there is indeed a lot more that could be written (including most of the outline described below). I also changed the wording about "germ theory" vs. "miasma theory" because germ theory wasn't around then - Snow theorized that cholera was water-borne and not inhaled, but still didn't know that a micro-organism was the cause of it (just read The Ghost Map). cmpalmer

Just fixing typos. Changed "there was been no particular outbreak" to "has been" after checking the quote at: http://matrix.msu.edu/~johnsnow/pub_Deptford1854.php

Having prettified the first section, I notice that it is directly contradicted by the second. Was Snow's father a farmer or did he work in a coal yard? Or was it one and then the other? The Snow Society site says farmer. --GuillaumeTell 22:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Expansion
I feel that a person who is a founding father of an important discipline really deserves a longer article on Wikipedia. Not knowing enough about him to perform the expansion myself, I would like to ask whether there is a particular tag to mark an article as needing attention/expansion? Thank you. laddiebuck 19:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree... An expansion would be suitable for this page.... Random viewer.

Here are some points that I believe can be added about John Snow (These points are more so related to John Snow & his contribution made to Cholera.... random viewer.

•	From his studies in toxicology, John Snow developed an interest in anesthesia and cholera (hence his theory on the transmission of the cholera 'poison' in water supplies…) •	He first encountered a cholera epidemic in Newcastle in 1831-32 when he was sent there by the surgeon to whom he was apprenticed at the time. •	On 16 October 1841 John Snow presented his first paper entitled Asphyxia and the resuscitation of new-born children. •	In 1846, John Snow heard about the use of anesthesia in the USA. It was not well-received in the UK initially, due to the mode of administration but John Snow spotted how to improve this. •	His famous book produced in 1849 cost him £200 to produce but his income was only £3.12s. •	Journals dismissed Snow's book. "There is, in our view, an entire failure of proof that the occurrence of any one case could be clearly and unambiguously assigned to water". The reviewer later concludes, "Notwithstanding our opinion that Dr Snow has failed in proving that cholera is communicated in the mode in which he supposes it to be, he deserves the thanks of the profession for endeavoring to solve the mystery. It is only by close analysis of facts and the publication of new views, which we can hope to arrive at the truth". (London Medical Gazette, 1849) •	John Snow beat William Budd to the water theory of transmission of cholera by only 10 days. However, although Budd's thesis was based on more thorough surveys of rural outbreaks, he made the mistake of proposing a fungal cause. •	John Snow's views were still not accepted in Germany at the time of the Gelsenkirche Typhoid Epidemic, in 1901. •	John Snow was voted in a poll of British doctors in 2003 as the greatest physician of all time. •	2004 marks the 150th anniversary of Dr. John Snow’s investigation of the Broad Street pump handle—one of the earliest examples of epidemiological research. Dr. Snow has received many accolades and his work continues to be celebrated.

---

It should also be noted that Snow's work on cholera was directly opposed and vilified by the local clergy, who worked under the delusion that disease was a form of divine punishment, and did not like to see their favorite bigotries overturned by something as prosaic as modern medicine. - JS


 * Actually, that's not totally true (if at all). This is pointed out in the article under the Cholera section, "By talking to local residents (with the help of Reverend Henry Whitehead). . ." Whitehead was the head of the parish and an enormous help to Snow. The people who vilified Snow were the prominent doctors of the era who had a deep-rooted belief that "miasma" caused disease, also pointed out in the same section. This was also Filippo Pacini's main problem when he isolated the cholera bacteria in 1854. Not only did he publish in Italian, not English, but he ran smack up against the Italian miasma lobby who ridiculed and clamped down his discovery. Therefore, his contribution to science was forgotten for a long while, but is now restored. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 21:18, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Microscopy
Sorry, the last edit changing this line:

"Snow took a sample of water from this well pump and examined it under a microscope, finding it to be filled with micro-organisms. At his request, the well pump was disabled by removing the handle."

To this:

"Although Snow's chemical and microscope examination of a sample of the water was not able to conclusively prove its danger, his studies of the pattern of the disease were convincing enough to persuade the local council to disable the well pump by removing its handle."

Was me, whilst logged out. I cite the book Ghost Map. Although the cholera bacterium *had* been seen by this time, Snow never saw it or even knew of its existence. He could not himself find chemical or microscopic flaw with the water - but he knew that it was dangerous by his statistical evidence. Eriathwen 19:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hypertensive, vegetarian
I removed the following text pending confirmation and identification of sources:


 * It is also believed that Snow was hypertensive and a strict vegetarian for the better part of his life, which may have contributed to his demise. Does anyone read this page because the last sentence is entirely false?

Paul W 15:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed "Pub"
I removed this section altogether. If it can be proved that

One of his later achievements was co-founding an irish pub in 1813-58 famous for serving ice cubes in the shape of snowflakes in their larger then my apologies! --redpaul1 (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to restructure the treatment of John Snow
I am not sure that the Wiki's treatment of John Snow's science has got it right yet.

I don't think that telling the history of Science as 'the deeds of Great Men', Creative Geniuses ignored by their dimmer contemporaries in their lifetime, etc actually works in the case of Dr Snow. He was, of course, a completely remarkable figure of the first generation of modern Scientists but by his own, and all other contemporary, accounts of his life and work was a man who worked very much within a sense of the community of science and knowledge. I think that the Wiki's record of this seminal period of the history of science could usefully be redeveloped and expanded to place Dr Snow's science more clearly in the context of biomedical science, medicine and social history as it happened between the 1830s and the end of the nineteenth century.

My early thoughts are that the present article could be reduced to a simpler biographical note on his life and personality with links to major articles recording his contributions to the states of the arts in :-

The history of Science

The history of Clinical Medicine

The history of Anesthesiology

The history of Aetiology

The history of Epidemiology

The history of Pharmacology

Public health history

Epistemology

I am minded to start a personal contribs progamme along these lines - anyone interested in joining in with me

RJBL RJBL0 (talk) 19:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I would take some convincing that such a restructuring is the right way to go. This is a biography of John Snow, not an article about John Snow's science. I think the current structure is broadly OK, although the artricle clearly needs more work. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:15, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

D'accord.

It is a biography of Dr Snow; not an article about his science, which is why I am quite uncomfortable with the prominence and detail given to the much-anthologised and, so often, mythologised Broad Street cholera outbreak. It is a very small, albeit important, component of a very much larger piece of his aetiological research. His research into the cause of infectious disease is now widely regarded as seminal. A narrow focus upon the anecdotage of the Broad Street Pump really does not help our understanding of his science. Most medical historians regard Dr Snow's research into the anaesthesia as the foundation science and his professional practice as the foundation of the clinical specialism.

I think Wikip could usefully record Dr Snow's place in the context of the science of the 1840s and 1850s - a truly remarkable era in the Life Sciences with many foundation contributions (Schwann; Henle; Budd; Farr; Darwin; Basso etc etc etc). Dr Snow worked very much within this community of the 'new' science; mining its accumulating knowledge and contributing to it from his own researches. I feel the Wikip should be able to capture the achievements of this community and I feel that expressing it merely as biography is not Good Historiography. Science changed radically in this period; it moved on from being Natural Philosophy - a diversion for the intellectual, and leisured, to an urgent intellectual industry fully engaged with the wider societies which hosted it. Dr Snow probably was not a lone Genius treading the frontiers of the unknown. He probably set out to be no more, nor less, than a good scientist and a good physician; he was certainly perceived to be so by his colleagues. He is probably a much more typical early Victorian scientist than our 21st century esteem for him allows.

rjbl RJBL0 (talk) 09:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Spelling
This is hopefully not a major change, but I noticed that 'honour' had the American spelling in this article. As the article is about a British individual working in Britain, I think it is probably right to change that, so I have. If I missed something, please let me know. John Snow II (talk) 21:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Needs replacement picture of John Snow
Somebody had used a painting of a character from Game Of Thrones, I couldn't find the edit in history so I've just removed it for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.252.126 (talk) 11:36, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Help with an addition....
I do not see John Snow's name on the "Snow" disambiguation page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_%28disambiguation%29 Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Snow (surname) is there, which leads to John Snow (disambiguation), which leads here. - Kzirkel (talk) 13:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 28 February 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. Clear consensus that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of John Snow, and that the spelling of the first name distinguishes it from Snows with the other version of "Jon". Cúchullain t/ c 18:42, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

– John Snow the physician would appear to meet both of the criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In terms of long-term significance, his work on the 1854 Broad Street cholera outbreak and being one of the fathers of modern epidemiology has great "enduring notability and educational value", considerably more than the other four John Snows. In terms of usage, his article has received 83.75% of pageviews of all "John Snow" articles over the past 90 days, and over seven times as many as the John Snow with the second most pageviews. This is even more noteworthy in the light of the other four men being alive right now, while he was from the early to mid 19th century.
 * John Snow (physician) → John Snow
 * John Snow → John Snow (disambiguation)
 * Physician: 74414
 * Secretary of Treasury: 10015
 * Cricketer: 3924
 * NC politician: 408
 * SC politician: 89
 * Total: 88850

- Egsan Bacon (talk) 01:24, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose - in the UK people will think of the broadcaster, per WP:SMALLDIFF  In ictu oculi (talk)
 * Comment the broadcaster is at Jon Snow so, to match this, it should move to Jon Snow (news presenter) and "Jon Snow" redirect to the disambiguation page, since outside of the UK, it is the fictional character that is the primary topic, or a misconception on how to spell this doctor -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 08:49, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Support - He is the very clear primary of the John Snows with that name spelling. Only he has global import. Ian McDonald (talk) 18:27, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Support; overwhelmingly the primary topic, with global and historical prominence.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  03:45, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Support Looks like a primary topic to me.  Taylor Trescott  - my talk + my edits 13:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Support To me as well. DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  16:26, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Feedback
Hi LauraBou! I really liked the background information you added about the conditions and societal state John Snow grew up around, I think it does a good job of contextualizing just how prevalent the health issues, that he went on to study, were in that time. Overall, every thing you added is really clearly written and the only suggestion I would have is to cite some more of the information. For example, you mentioned that though John Snow worked with Ether he never attempted to patent it, and I think adding the source of that would add to the validity of the statement. Again, I think you made some really great contributions to the page! Zn15 (talk) 03:38, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I think one thing that could be added on Snow is how his views were seen within the scientific community. You talk about about the political controversy with his views, but including what other scientists, like Petenkoffer thought of Snow might be useful for grounding Snow in a particular context. Sarfrazzle (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:49, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback and your constructive criticism! I like your suggesting of adding other scientists' views in order to compare and contrast Snow's views. LauraBou (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2017 (UTC)LauraBouLauraBou (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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"Snowed"
Healthcare employees often will say their patient is "snowed" when they are heavily sedated. Is this a historic reference to Dr Snow that most people probably don't even realize anymore? Or is it merely coincidence?
 * Seems more related to the definition of snow as to "'overwhelm; surround, cover, and imprison' (as deep snows can do to livestock)" from Etymology of Snow. I don't see how that would relate to Mr. John Snow. - Kzirkel (talk) 13:25, 19 March 2019 (UTC)