Talk:John Taylor, Baron Taylor of Warwick/Archive 1

Fraudster category
I have removed this as BLP violation. He has been convicted of fraud, and to categorise him as "person convicted of fraud" is fine. However, there is not need to put a pejorative label on him that tends to imply a career criminal. There's some discussion on my talk page if anyone is interested, although perhaps we should centralise this somewhere.--Scott Mac 22:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Now at WP:BLPNB.--Scott Mac 23:03, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As noted on your talk page, the term "fooer" is habitually applied to someone convicyted of "foo".
 * Merriam Webster defines fraudster as a person who engages in fraud, and Taylor has been convicted on six counts of fraud. If you want a ref, here it is: . I have restored the category. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:05, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Do not restore it again, I believe this to be a BLP violation, so we keep it out until consensus says otherwise. "Fraudster" implies someone who makes a career out of fraud, not someone caught fiddling 11,000 from expenses. But as this applies to multiple articles, I suggest we discuss this in a centralised place. Note, I am not the only person disagreeing with your analysis.--Scott Mac 23:09, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have already restored it, with a supporting ref. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * We routinely include people convicted of one murder in murderer cats, so why should we not include someone convicted of six counts of fraud in a fraudster cat? No-one's saying it's a BLP vio to include him in Category:Politicians convicted of crimes, so why should he not be in Category:English fraudsters? Neither one is a subcat of the other; they both apply to him. Jim Michael (talk) 23:22, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * it is a libguistic fallacy to imply all "foo-ers" mean the same. "Murderer" implies only one murder committed (we use mass murderer or serial killer for more). Perjurers have seldom done more than lied in one case, and that's implied. Fraudster, burgler, etc. tend to imply a career made of it. Why use a pejorative label which carries ambiguity, when we can be more accurate. We ought to err on the side of not painting an over-negative picture. (But let's discuss this in one place at the BLPNB.)--Scott Mac 23:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You have been repeatedly asked to produce a reference for this view of the terminology, but have offered absolutely nothing. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also apreciate some sources on this matter to.--Wipsenade (talk) 16:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Racist issues?
Why put John Taylor, Baron Taylor of Warwick in Category:English fraudsters, when David Wilshire MP and Pola Uddin, Baroness Uddin are not? Is this because a Afro-Caribean is juged to be 'more' corupt than a White British or Asian person?--Wipsenade (talk) 10:15, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

--Wipsenade (talk) 10:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Taylor and Chaytor have been judged fraudulent by a court. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  10:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, O.K., it's not the Wiki that's P.O.V., but the courts then. Hey, hoe; we can't edit the courts, I give up. I'm just added Jim Devine for copleatness and now close my case.--Wipsenade (talk) 10:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The court process will take its course and produce whatever outcome it produces. But unless and until there is a criminal conviction, we should not add the categories. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Is it a Clechéd time for the Toffs' heraldic Cleché at the House of Lords?--82.27.27.244 (talk) 14:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * What's a Toff's Cleched Cleche?--Wipsenade (talk) 16:07, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Media bias against local constituency party
This is an extremely frustrating article. I'll declare an interest straight away as a member, at the time, of Taylor's Cheltenham constituency party. The reason he was most hated by local members is that he was parachuted in from Birmingham and knew precious little, if anything, about the Cheltenham area nor local issues. Taylor's race barely warranted a mention (heck, the previous incumbent was a drug addict of uncertain sexuality and we supported *him* even when his GP got convicted for prescribing him smack; we clearly had quite a liberal tolerance when it came to MPs). We hated Taylor because he was a Brummie, not because he was black. However the media picked up the Cheltenham racist stereotype (Cheltenham is known as a monocultural "white" town) and the media ran with that, totally ignoring local members' primary concern. The problem for Wikipedia is that Wikipedia values verifiability, not truth, and whilst I and other local Tory members can moan about it until we're blue in the face, all the referenceable material calls Cheltenham Conservatives racists for opposing him. If only Wikipedia's restrictions on pejorative libellous terms in BLP also applied to groups! I can't help but be offended at being called a racist by association, especially when that allegation is supported by dodgy media reports. Andrew Oakley (talk) 16:51, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Andrew, Although not a wiki expert, I believe that emails/memos and letters from official sources (e.g. a local council member) discussing the issue would provide a suitable enough reference. Check out wikiepdia's manual of style for guidance on quotations. You might also consider changing the article to something along the lines of "It was reported at the time that Taylor was disliked in his local constituency because of his colour. These reports were used to sensationalise the election and are largely unsupportable." There are ways of saying almost what you want. All the best Corneredmouse (talk) 08:40, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Did Taylor do anything notable in his life apart from being convicted of fraud?
There is nothing in this article that provides information on what Taylor has ever contributed to society? Did Taylor do anything notable in his life apart from being convicted of fraud?Barmispain (talk) 11:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The way the article sits at the moment is rather non-NPOV. It pretty much reads as a "look at all the terrible stuff this guy has done" editorial. I'm going to be doing a few edits to try and add a little balance. If anyone can dig up more research please help out.GeneralChan (talk) 23:26, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Edits on Parliamentarians
Dear people, I have been pouring over pages and pages of Parliamentarians on Wikipedia and have come to realise that most of the articles relating to politicians who have had bad publicity in the past appear to be showing mostly negative information. According to BLP policies, it is our duty to balance the page and present the good and the evil together. Currently, this page seems to show that Taylor was convicted and his life ended there. People have a right to know all of the positive contributions he made to society as well. In the next few days, i will be adding more information to this page which will be of course referenced properly. I will be making the same edits to a few other wiki pages. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any positive information/links relating to this specific page which can appear neutral and does not violate any BLP policies. I propose we add a new section on this page, "Contributions to Society". Your thoughts are most welcome. Many thanks. Matty80 (talk) 14:24, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Personalised statement
The first sentence of the lede says: ''John David Beckett Taylor, Baron Taylor of Warwick (born 21 September 1952), is a member of the House of Lords... who strives to promote world peacemaking alongside advocating racial diversity in the higher ranks of business, media, politics, and sports.''
 * This is actually his own answer to an interview question, and should not appear to be an encyclopedic definition of the subject. Valetude (talk) 00:33, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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RFC regarding image use
Which image should be used in the infobox? Primefac (talk) 12:43, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Original discussion
I work with someone who represents Baron Taylor, in the past we were able to successfully have his portrait replaced by providing evidence of CC 4.0 Attribution and full copyright ownership. The image has since been removed and replaced with an image that is citing this URL as the source: https://api.parliament.uk/Live/photo/H5XSzCVf.jpeg?crop=MCU_3:4&quality=80&download=true - but this is a dead link and the current image does not have creative commons attribution. We have documentation from Carrie Kleiner, Editor in Chief at UK Parliament, confirming that this image is not our official portrait and that the one that we are trying to replace it with is (https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-taylor-of-warwick/1796). We are more than willing to provide any evidence and documentation necessary to rectify this. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:fea8:4e1f:e40d:d29:a79f:5fe9:c2 (talk • contribs) 21:22, 18 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The image currently used on the article, File:Official portrait of Lord Taylor of Warwick crop 2.jpg, is an official House of Lords portrait, released under an irrevocable open licence, as explained at https://pds.blog.parliament.uk/2017/07/21/mp-official-portraits-open-source-images/ As such, its use here is legal and legitimate. It is also far superior to the previously-used image, File:Lord John Taylor.jpg (a less-highly cropped version of your /1796 image), in resolution (526 KB vs a mere 28KB; your version is a mere 4.32KB), pose, composition (does Taylor really have a yellow pole through his head?), being more up-to-date, and being in series with HoL portraits used on Wikipedia for other current peers. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:27, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * File:Official portrait of Lord Taylor of Warwick crop 2.jpg ("new image" above) and related photos File:Official portrait of Lord Taylor of Warwick.jpg, File:Official portrait of Lord Taylor of Warwick crop 1.jpg, and File:Official portrait of Lord Taylor of Warwick crop 3.jpg are collectively no longer official and have been removed from Parliament's website. The portrait at https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-taylor-of-warwick/1796 AKA File:Lord John Taylor.jpg ("old image" above) is official. This is all documented in 2017022610010486. I am thus about to revert your edit.  — Jeff G. ツ 13:34, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The ticket is not visible to anyone else; but this is a very bad action. The better image is, as noted above, under an irrevocable open licence. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

RFC discussion

 * Note the discussion on this topic has been going on for long enough with zero outside participation, so purely to stop the slow-burning edit war I've turned it into an RFC. The original (pre-RFC) discussion is in the section above, RFC-related discussion should go here. Hopefully some uninvolved editors will make their thoughts heard. Primefac (talk) 12:43, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with POTW that the revert is poor, because it replaces a good quality photograph with a poorer one (significantly lower resolution, colours bleeding, bad pixellation effect, over brightened and so washed out, presumably because of original bad lighting). The House of Lords portrait is a professional photograph, while the replacement appears an amateur shot with a random and distracting background. With regard to your statement that the original batch upload is "collectively no longer official", how exactly are you defining that? As the original uploader I have no doubt whatsoever that the large number of photographs I uploaded are official, with a verified release, and they remain the best quality photographs we have available of these politicians. --Fæ (talk) 18:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The current official photo is the "old image" above, as closely cropped at https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-taylor-of-warwick/1796 - note the lack of any other photo.  — Jeff G. ツ 13:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not see how the 2014 photo used on parliament.uk is more "official" than the "official" portraits taken in 2018 which were also published at parliament.uk. The rationale for using the 2018 photograph seems so obvious that persisting with a "but it's official" seems bizarrely illogical. Keep in mind that:
 * The 2018 photograph is 4 times the size of the 2014 photograph
 * The 2018 photograph was taken by McAndrew, a professional photographer as part of a Parliament project, while Cohen ("of Princess Cruises") appears to be an amateur photographer with no other context
 * The 2018 photograph is well composed and shows the subject as they appear in real life this year as opposed to 4 years ago
 * The 2018 photograph is a magnitude better quality in terms of lighting, true colour and digital quality compared to the 2014 photograph
 * The 2018 photograph is just as flattering to the subject as the 2014 photograph, not that we should be jumping to make courtesy changes just because someone sends an email in to OTRS. The overriding factor to be considered here is which photograph is more representative of the way the subject appears now as that makes it of higher encyclopaedic value. It is common practice that we update old photographs for more recent ones, especially if they are higher quality
 * If anything, I suggest you ask whomever has control over the photograph used in the parliament.uk profile page you linked to, to get on and update the photograph they are using as it is out of date. --Fæ (talk) 18:13, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * New Image - Use the new image. Clearly better. I don't think you can revoke CC licences. If something is released to public domain, it's out there for good. NickCT (talk) 19:31, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * New image, but clean it up. This needs color and contrast adjustment. The old image looks weird and plasticky. I've done a quick adjustment, posted here. (If someone can do better, please feel free to just replace my version at Commons.)Official_portrait_of_Lord_Taylor_of_Warwick_crop_2_adjusted.jpg  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I've added it to the list. Primefac (talk) 13:57, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * SMc's Thanks,L3X1  ◊distænt write◊  15:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * New image - Far better compared to the alternatives. Lightening of the image certainly improved quality to appear more "realistic". Meatsgains (talk) 00:54, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * New image And DBigXray's version, I uploaded another one just with some minor tweaks that does not make him look unnatural. not SMC's version . IMHO I would have liked something in between Original and SMC. SMC has added too much brightness, it is no longer realistic. -- D Big X ray  21:33, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * We have to be careful with rebalancing based on judgement from a professional photo original, especially if the original was taken intended to be printed rather than for a back-lit display. I have two monitors in from of me, Asus and Flatron, the skin tones in the photo appear very different between them. Though on both monitors it seems over-brightened. --Fæ (talk) 21:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I've re-tweaked the photo, after going over Google Image results for Taylor; overall I think that DBigXray and Fæ were right that I'd unintentionally "white-washed" him on the first attempt. You may need to flush browser cache to see the difference. I can't really do much more with this overlit+underexposed original image, though people with more expensive image tools (and skills at using them) might be able to do better).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:23, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks SMC, I still feel the edits you have proposed are over the top. I just made few minor tweaks and added my own version now. edited my !vote accordingly. hi Fae, This is just my own opinion, on what I feel would look better in the article. -- D Big X ray   13:55, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Your version, on my screen, is barely distinguishable from the original. It still looks like the picture was taken in someone's closet, and he still has that weird bluish cast. I recommend opening this Google Images page and comparing the set of images above to all those that are available (but generally not usable by use for copyright reasons).  Even mine's still bluer than average. Maybe someone with better graphics skills can split the difference between our versions? (Though work from the original, to preserve total image quality; JPEG is lossy.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:14, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I further reduced the blue cast in my version, can you check again.-- D Big X ray  22:19, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It is less blue, but now a bit greenish. It's lacking in red tones (one of the reasons I linked to the Google Images page for comparison), and also lacking in depth/contrast/clarity (which my version apparently went too far on).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Side comment: He really does seem to like that bright blue suit; Google Images pulls up pictures of him wearing it on different occasions (his tie changes color in them). When in a black suit, he's often wearing a blue tie and/or blue shirt, so it seems to be "his thing".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:26, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I will add that the subject only seems to like File:Lord John Taylor.jpg (Ticket), and I won't be surprised if we get another e-mail if it gets changed. Ron h jones (Talk) 19:20, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi User:Ronhjones, What does Wiki policy state ? does it allow such request by the subject ? if so then we should close this RFC, If not then his opinion is just another comment on the RFC. -- D Big X ray  22:18, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It was mainly a comment, knowing how some of these things often progress, and the tone of the e-mails. As for policy, nothing set in stone, but I know WP:BLPEDIT says . We have had (at least) three tickets on having the image as https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-taylor-of-warwick/1796, and it's my opinion that he wants only that image. Ron h jones (Talk) 01:02, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi User:Ronhjones If so then we should close this RFC and save the community time. Anyway the original image is (though old) but good enough. there is not much changes in his face either. Based on your comment above, I honestly feel this RFC is now pointless. Now with this news, do you have any concern in withdrawing or closing the RFC ? -- D Big X ray   12:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Re-!vote Use the original, but sharpened, to follow subject preference (not required, but nice) and because in sharpened form it's much better than original and than our attempts to "repair" the washed-out blue suit pic. The problem with the original colourful image is it has a bit of blur and diffusion to it, making it look kind of plasticky except at full size. However, if you look at the official thumbnail, it's had a mild edge-sharpening filter applied to compensate, and looks better.  This could be done with a copy of the Commons version.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 16 July 2018 (UTC)  What do previous respondents think?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:16, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't understand which image you're proposing. Could you link to it? NickCT (talk) 09:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The original old image File:Lord John Taylor.jpg is frankly good enough. I dont see any real need for sharpening or post processing. Also, there is not much to work with either considering the low resolution pic. Lets just close the RFC due to the Opinion of the Subject who prefers old pic. -- D Big X ray  12:14, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not how consensus works. Primefac (talk) 12:20, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say that as the subject is happy with File:Lord John Taylor.jpg, then leave it there. It most certainly will stop any image-warring later. Ron h jones (Talk) 12:34, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


 * (summoned here by legobot). The images without a yellow pole through the head are superior. Edaham (talk) 07:58, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Image release
We have submitted written confirmation from the UK parliament that the image you are using does not have cc 3.0. Wikipedia editors insist on reverting the image due to their own bias on the quality of the subject's desired portrait but this is irrelevant as the UK parliament reps have explicitly confirmed that the image I've reverted to is Taylor's official parliamentary photo and that there are no usage permissions associated with what Wikipedia editors feel is the superior image. Ehy do Wikipedia editors insist on breaking the law in this regard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:4E20:3F3:5507:56A6:6045:C4AF (talk) 11:21, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Creative Commons licenses are non-revokable. Just because the UK Parliament uses a different "official" image does not mean that Wikipedia cannot use a different image on this article. Primefac (talk) 14:58, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There was never a creative commons license to begin with. Please link me to where you discovered the currently used image/where this notion that it was released under CC stems from - It doesn't exist because it wasn't published by UK parliament - Wikipedia editors grabbed it off the file server and assumed it had CC 3.0 because it was taken in the same format as other portraits. I repeat this file is not published elsewhere, has been removed from UK govs website and was NEVER issued under creative commons. So unless you can prove that this file has 3.0 attribution I request that you take it down. We will not drop this matter and will pursue further recourse if necessary. Wikipedia editors are taking copyright law into their own hands and it appears now that they are doing it simply out of spite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:fea8:4e20:3f3:202d:d6aa:df6b:3e8f (talk • contribs) 11:16, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe the CC notice was given here. As a note, legal threats are not permitted, so if you're planning on going that route please save us the trouble of blocking you and email . If you leave out the legal threats, though, we're happy to continue the discussion here.
 * Another option is that if you know the photographer, and know that they have not released this image under the license listed on Commons, you can have the photographer email asking for it to be removed. Primefac (talk) 00:57, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The claims that the image "was not published by UK parliament" [sic] and that we invented the licence is bogus; see . And is this quasi-legal nonsense really made by somebody representing a member of our supreme legislature? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)