Talk:John Van Antwerp MacMurray

Dec 2012
With respect this this edit, the edit summary represents a misreading of Wikipedia policy. An excerpt from the primary source is quoted directly and at some length. However, analysis or interpretations are best provided by secondary sources. Arthur Waldron is a secondary source and and expert on the subject matter. According to Waldron's analysis, MacMurray's overall argument was not that the United Stated just needed to stop opposing Japan's excursions into China; he argued that Washington needed to recognize Japan's legitimate grievances that the system of international laws to which it had tried to adhere had failed. The previous version was more accurate. Homunculus (duihua) 00:02, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I will note as well that no source—not MacMurray, and not Waldron—supports the wording currently given. No one argued that Washington "should accept Japanese domination of China." It certainly does not appear that way in the page cited. Homunculus (duihua) 00:07, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I will note, though, that using the passive voice in the introduction (saying that the Pacific War started rather than clearly stating who started it, and how) is POV and an example of weasel words.  I will also edit the wording on the grievances to state the following: "According to Waldron's analysis, MacMurray's overall argument was not that the United Stated just needed to stop opposing Japan's excursions into China; he argued that Washington needed to recognize Japan's legitimate grievances that the system of international laws to which it had tried to adhere had failed."  It is important to note that included in MacMurray's arguments was an implicit recognition that part of (or most of) the Japanese grievance with the US rested on Japan's desire to expand into and dominate over China.  The article's wording should make that more explicit, and I will change it as thus. Lostromantic (talk) 07:35, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I can understand your concern with the passive voice in the lede, but aside from that, I cannot understand why you would replace the paragraphs you did with my own paraphrasing in response to a very specific question you asked. It does not appear to be an improvement. Moreover, I am unclear on what you're referring to when you say part or most of Japan's "grievance with the US rested on Japan's desire to expand into and dominate over China." I do not recall reading that in the book, and also fail to see how it's germane in the context of MacMurray's writing. Japan's grievances with the United States and China predated Japan's territorial incursions into China; MacMurray describes the latter as a response to the failure of those countries (particularly China) to honor their commitments. Since the version that I wrote is properly sourced with very minimal interpretive liberties taken, I am going to revert to it. If you would like to try to make a case for your version, I would ask that you please point me to page numbers and explain why you believe it is superior. Homunculus (duihua) 18:45, 29 January 2013 (UTC)