Talk:John Vereker, 6th Viscount Gort

Untitled
Looking good so far. Two points I'd raise:


 * He's best known as "Lord Gort". Perhaps the entry could have that in the first line in bold type somewhere.


 * I'm not comfortable with the phrase "sidelined for the rest of the war". His role as Governer of Malta, while easily forgotten, was a very significant one - indeed, I think most historians would regard it as the most important thing he ever did.

I won't edit to make these changes myself - there is nothing worse than getting edit conflicts when you are half-way through a project! Tannin 11:53 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)

meaningless
Happy to leave the word "meaningless" omitted, but this is a direct quote from Jock Colville's book. GrahamBould 13:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

QF - BEF capture changes
Agreed, though the question of British morale would probably be academic if almost the entire British Army had been captured/killed. Britain would have had to sue for peace & the war would have been over. I do not think most people realize how much we owe to Gort & his decisions in May 1940.

Gort was left in the lurch by the utter chaos in the Frrench command structure and had he not taken the decision to evacuate, the BEF would have been left in an intenble postion by the inaction of the French and the collapse of the Belgian Army--Streona (talk) 20:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Capture
I don't understand the section regarding his capture in France - what and why were the ramifications of this and how was he able to travel, etc, if arrested?
 * Which bit don't you understand? What do you mean "his capture" - where does it say that? GrahamBould 15:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Churchill gave orders that Gort was to evacuate himself before Dunkirk fell, even though he wanted to remain with the last of his men and to delegate =command to a corps commander when the BEF was down to three divisions. He nominated General Alexander. When it came to it neither were captured as the evacuation was more successful than had been envisaged--Streona (talk) 20:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Where was he born ?
Spartacus Internationional website say he was born in County Durham, but numerous others say he was born in East Cowes Castle on the Isle of Wight.--Streona (talk) 09:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states that he was born at 24 Chesham Place, London. --DavidCane (talk) 01:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Sons
The first section says he had two sons. The last section says he died without a son. What happened to them? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 09:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * one committed suicide in 1941; I don't know about the other one. Dormskirk (talk) 21:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The younger one died in May 1915 aged nearly 2 years. I have added this to the article. Do you have a source for the suicide? Alansplodge (talk) 00:13, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * yes. Here is the source for the suicide: Lord Gort's Heir commits suicide (The Mail, Adelaide, 1 March 1941). Dormskirk (talk) 09:32, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Extended runway on reclaimed land - Malta or Gibraltar?
To quote the "Second World War" section "As Governor of Malta (1942–44)... He pushed ahead with extending the airfield into land reclaimed from the sea...". However, Gibraltar: Conquered by No Enemy by Marc Alexander (Chapter 30) seems to think that it happened in Gibraltar. Surely he can't have done the same thing twice? Alansplodge (talk) 23:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Just come here to ask which airfield is meant. I suspect it's RAF Hal Far. Some more details are here.  Could someone more knowledgeable add it? JRPG (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Gort said Dec '38 that Germany was stronger cos of Czech annexation - but only had Sudatenland at that point. Czech not taken until March '39
Either this part is wrong, or the author means that Gort felt that Germany was stronger from taking the Sudatenland at Munich.

This needs to be sorted - anyone reading would assume that Czech had been taken by this point.

Yes, Germany had gained population (3m????) and, as Hitler said, taken 2,000km of border fortifications without firing a shot, but the rest of Czech was still "an aircraft carrier in the heart of Germany."

Please sort this out. They took the predominantly German-speaking Sudatenland in autumn '38, but they didn't split Czechoslovakia, annex Czech and impose a puppet, pro-Nazi regime on Slovakia until Spring '39.

This is not clear from the way it's written.

Please advise.

Ganpati23 (talk) 01:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

PS: He actually implies that Germany has taken the whole of Czechoslovakia:

"He observed that Germany, as a result of the acquisition of Czechoslovakia, was in a stronger position than the previous year".

This never formally happened. As I say above. They'd only taken the Sudatenland by this point, and even next March, they only 'acquired' Czech, not (formally) Slovakia.

Please change.

Ganpati23 (talk) 01:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Gort, the BEF, and the "Weygand Plan"
Your article paints Gort in rather a bad light, using statements which are not supported by the historical record.

"Following the Phony War, the 1940 German breakthrough in the Ardennes split the Allied forces and communications between the British Expeditionary Force and the French broke down, and on 25 May 1940 Gort took the unilateral decision to abandon his orders for a southward attack by his forces.[39]"

Not only is that a woefully insufficient summation of the situation faced by the French First Army Group, it is perhaps even less illuminating of the situation faced by Lord Gort. I understand the article is about Gort, not the Battle for France, but the event is a signal one in Lord Gort's career as an Army Officer. I haven't the time to educate you on the Battle For France in 1940, but if you're going to make accusations about "abandon his orders", you had better educate yourself.

"Gort's command position was difficult, serving under French high theatre, and army group command while also being responsible to London. Withdrawing northwards, the BEF together with many French soldiers were evacuated during the Battle of Dunkirk.[40]"

You have managed to miss a very important aspect of Gort's orders from HM Government, that he was charged, above all else, with the preservation of the British Field Force, and if any order he received seemed to him likely to result in the destruction of that force, without prospects for a commensurate success, he was to appeal to HM Government.

Gort made many, many attempts to communicate with his French superiors and peers. It was Général Blanchard (Commanding the French 1st Army, which was supposed to attack with the BEF) who told Gort the French would not be able to execute the counter-attack you claim he abandoned; he went ahead without them (though some French mobile forces were in action separately from his attack, they were not acting in support of it). He struck at the flank of the Panzer corridor at Arras, as ordered, with all of the mobile forces remaining to him. Only when it was clear from Général Blanchard and Général Billotte (the French GOC No.1 Army Group) that no French support in the North, nor any French counter-attack from the South, was to be forthcoming, did he order his forces to disengage.

"Gort is credited by some as reacting efficiently to the crisis and saving the British Expeditionary Force.[39] Others hold a more critical view of Gort’s leadership in 1940, seeing his decision not to join the French in organising a large scale counter-attack as defeatist."

As you really didn't define the crisis, nor provide a link to a description of it, it is difficult for a reader to reach any informed conclusion. You could have and should have set out the the majority of historians—including French ones—credit Gort with acting honourably towards his French Allies. The "big" counter-attack you allude to never took place, because quite frankly, the French had squandered their reserves and mobile forces in two early blunders: the adventure into Belgium and Holland, and poor handling of their few extent reserves early in the battle for the centre.

To sum up, if you are determined to go with a terse statement of Gort's role in the 1940 Fall of France, it would be better to stick to one supported by the overwhelming majority of informed military and historical opinion: Gort acted loyally to support the French Army's plan, even to the point of ordering a counter-attack with almost all of his remaining mobile forces—the counter-attack at Arras—despite having no faith that the French would do their part. As events proved him right, Gort took the decision pressed upon him by the orders of his own Government, to ensure the safety of the BEF. This he did only after the Belgians surrendered to the Germans, and the French had failed to launch their promised counter-attack for three days. By his actions Lord Gort saved the BEF, and there are many who believe that by so doing, he saved Great Britain from defeat and ensured the eventual ruin of Germany.

And for heaven's sake, if you won't go into detail about the encirclement of the Northern Army Group, at least put in some links. Ranya (talk) 05:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi - Wikipedia is written by the Wikipedia community and this particular article has been contributed to by many editors over many years. You are welcome to make properly sourced constructive additions to the article but to tell the Wikipedia community that "you had better educate yourself" is less than constructive. Please read WP:NPA. Thanks. Dormskirk (talk) 16:18, 2 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Gort waited just about as long as he dared before ordering the retreat-to, and evacuation of Dunkirk, as no sane military commander needing to evacuate his troops waits until he has to lift his men off a beach in preference to using a harbour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.30.162.162 (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2016 (UTC)


 * " ... a more critical view of his leadership, seeing his decision to abandon the France during the Germany's attack into the West as defeatist. ..." - this was at just the time that Ultra was starting to become useful and one of the first useful pieces of information gleaned from Bletchley Park was that the situation in France was much worse than the French had been leading their British allies to believe, and this was one of the factors that led Gort to order the retreat to Dunkirk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.8.216 (talk) 08:34, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

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Unclear
On 25 June 1940 he went by flying boat, with Duff Cooper, to Rabat, Morocco, to rally anti-Nazi French cabinet ministers, but was instead held on his flying boat.
 * Held by whom? Can you qualify this statement? Valetude (talk) 11:47, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Possibly due to the hurried nature of the trip he was not carrying his passport in which case the Moroccan immigration authorities would not have allowed him to leave the aircraft. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.172.230 (talk) 09:58, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Alcoholism
There should be some mention of the fact that his early death was due to alcoholism. (2A00:23C4:638D:D500:24BD:7970:AF28:6AB1 (talk) 12:10, 21 July 2017 (UTC))

2nd wife?
Your picture of a group in November 1939 mentions 'Lady Gort' in the caption. The only wife mentioned in the article divorced him in 1925. Valetude (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Odd. The ODNB doesn't mention a second marriage. The source for the picture, here says Lady Gort. DuncanHill (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2021 (UTC)