Talk:John Watkins (diplomat)

KGB defectors
David Martin identifies the KGB defectors who revealed Watkins' entrapment as Anatoliy Golitsyn and Yuri Nosenko Rgr09 (talk) 05:40, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have that in other sources, too, but I think it was first reported by Martin in Wilderness. I also have Oleg Gribanov ("Oleg Gorbunov"/"Alexei Mikhailovitch Gorbunov"/"Aloysha") and Anatoly Gorsky ("Anitoli Gromov"/"Anatoly Nitkin") who set him up. Thanks! - Location (talk) 01:57, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * By the way, don't let me stop you from editing this article if you feel up to it. It recently implied that Watkins was tortured to death, however, my reading of the sources is that he was already in very poor health when questioned by Bennett and Brandes. Although he had been compromised by the KGB and kept it to himself for many years, he was never "turned" and he was on friendly terms with those questioning him. Given the times, I don't see that there was anything nefarious on the part of Watkins or the RCMP. - Location (talk) 03:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your work on this article. The articles on Adams and his books could also use some revision, but I really don't have time. I have added Leslie James Bennett as a see also here (the sources on that are poor, will try to add one or two later). This article seems to leave out the fact that Adams had to settle with Bennett over A's spy novel. The article also seems to leave up in the air the question of whether Watkins was blackmailed by the Russians or not. Adams says no, but apparently William Kaplan thought yes. Several of the sources I have read say yes as well. This can make a difference in how one evaluates Watkins. Rgr09 (talk) 06:19, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Minor question: I have seen sources give Gribanov's full name as Oleg Mikhailovich Gribanov (no "t"). With their operation against Watkins, Kaplan said he used the name "Alexei Mikhailovich Gorbunov" (no "t"; p. 86) and Glazov said he used the name "Alexei Mikhailovitch Gorbunov" (with the "t"; p.54), but Sawatsky (p. 180) said he used the name "Oleg Gorbunov". (Of course Watkins called him "Aloysha".) Is Sawatsky the outlier on what his fake name was? And do you think we should use the version with the "t" or without? - Location (talk) 18:54, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Romanization systems for Russian are way past my competence, but I would go without 't' in this case. I found Gribanov in John Barron's 1974 book KGB:The Secret Work of Soviet Secret Agents. Turns out Gribanov did the same thing to the French Ambassador to the USSR, Maurice Dejean. In that case Gribanov used the name Oleg Mikhailovich Gorbanov. This is Krotkov's 1969 testimony. Barron also interviewed K and gives this pseudonym as well. Could it be Watkins' reports called him Alexei? This is what Kaplan is using, right? Barron says of G. 'he looked like a run of the mill Soviet bureaucrat. Actually, he was a daring thinker and one of the seven or eight most important men in the KGB' (p. 176). Rgr09 (talk) 23:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding the KGB official's real full name: I think there is sufficient sourcing to state that it was "Oleg Mikhailovich Gribanov". Regarding the KGB official's pseudonym: I think for the purposes of this article that we should use "Alexei Mikhailovich Gorbunov" since that is the name by which Watkins knew him and wrote about him (Kaplan p. 127, 103). We might want to add a footnote stating that Gribanov was also involved in a similar operation targeting Dejean using the name "Oleg Gorbunov". For clarification, did Krotkov say "Oleg Mikhailovich GorbAnov" or "Oleg Mikhailovich GorbUnov", or just "Oleg GorbAnov" or "Oleg GorbUnov" without the middle name? Also, Glazov says Gribanov introduced himself as "Alexei Mikhailovitch Gorbunov" and cites Barron on p. 54, but he did not provide a specific book or page for Barron and the cite may have been simply for Gribanov's position within the KGB. Does Barron state what name Gribanov used in his operations? Thanks! - Location (talk) 15:22, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Barron 176 says "To dupe the Dejeans into an association, Gribanov assumed the identity of Oleg Mikhailovich Gorbunov, 'an important official of the Council of Ministers.'" B spells Gorbunov with a U everywhere, Gorbanov was my mistake. Damn Russian names. Rgr09 (talk) 00:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Related to the above question regarding names... Glaznov and Kaplan state Anatoly Borisovich Gorsky used the pseudonym Anatoly Nitkin, but Sawatsky says Anatoli Gorsky used the name Anatoli Gromov. I am not sure whether to use Nitkin or Gromov. I found an interesting passage in a book about Ian Fleming by Rupert Allason aka Nigel West that states Nitkin was the alias of Gorsky, but added: In both  London  and  Washington,  Gorsky  was  listed  as  Anatoli  Gromov,  and  he  was  known  to  the  Communist  Party  of  the  United  States  of  America  (CPUSA)  defector  Elizabeth  Bentley  simply  as  “Al.” p. 154 Just wondering if you had any more information on why Gromov would have been used instead of Nitkin. (Edit: The origin of that statement could be from pp. 2-3 of this undated NSA document regarding the Venona project.) - Location (talk) 19:09, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The NSA document you found is monograph 3 in a series of six monographs prepared for the release of the Venona intercepts. The complete set was released in one pdf, available here. Gorsky is one of the most famous Russian foreign intelligence officers, a real spymaster. He was Henry, the handler for the Cambridge Five, and the KGB resident (station chief) in the Washington D.C. after that, not to mention many other jobs god knows where doing god knows what. There really should be an article about him, Haynes and Klehr have a huge amount of information about him in their book Spies: The Rise and Fall of the KGB in America. I will bet that Gorsky was introduced to Watkins as Nitkin, just as Gribanov was introduced to him as Alexei Gorbunov, rather than Oleg Gorbunov. Sawatsky's use of Gromov and Oleg probably came from his sources, whoever they were. Rgr09 (talk) 00:16, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: "There really should be an article about him". Voila... Anatoly Gorsky. - Location (talk) 18:29, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It appears there is some discussion about these figures in Chapman Pincher's Too Secret Too Long and James Barros's No Sense of Evil, but I can only get snippet views on GBooks. - Location (talk) 20:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Another work that has an extensive discussion of Watkin's interrogation and death is . This is a major, probably still authoritative discussion of the career of Leslie Bennett. It is discussed in Cleveland Cram's hundred page essay on Angleton's molehunts. Most of Sawatsky's book is based on anonymous interviews, I don't understand where the supposed controversy is coming from in the death of Watkins. Sawatsky writes:
 * Virtually no lead had remained unprobed and the two interrogators felt satisfied they had extracted almost everything. ... Watkins sat in a quiet reflective mood in the room's single cushioned chair while Bennett and Brandes sat before him in hard chairs. Watkins was reminiscing about his diplomatic career and talking about some of the people he met and while reaching for a cigarette gasped suddenly and froze with his chin pointing slightly up. The interrogators instantly suspected the calamity they feared most: a heart attack. It struck so quietly and with such swiftness it seemed anticlima[c]tic. Bennnett grabbed his pulse, feeling nothing, while Brandes pumped his chest. They next telephoned for help and two plainclothes St. Laurent detectives arrived, followed by two police ambulance attendants who told them it was too late. Watkins had died instantly. (p.183)
 * As Sawatsky makes clear throughout his description of Watkins' interrogation, everyone knew he had a bad heart and Bennett and Brandes handled him with kid gloves. The RCMP did hush it up, telling the St. Laurent police chief Watkin exposed some KGB operating methods and publicity would allow the KGB to take countermeasures. The coroner's report listed Brandes as the only witness and described him as a friend. Rgr09 (talk) 22:44, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I cannot recall if it is Kaplan or some other source that states Sawatsky’s account is authoritative and everything checks out with their interviews and research. I’m glad you have it. I’ve been working on this chronologically and I’ve tried to add material with sources that state Watkins was in poor health for years before he was questioned by the RCMP. I’m about to start putting in information about the honey trap. I’m assuming that Nosenko told the CIA, the CIA figured out it was Watkins, and that the CIA relayed this to the RCMP, but I haven’t searched for sources on this yet. Thoughts?
 * I haven’t read Adams, but my impression is that it is he who stirred up whatever controversy there is.
 * BTW, Gribinov seems like an interesting character. I skimmed the testimony of George Karlin and I thought I saw that he was using very young girls for the honey traps.Location (talk) 05:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Acc to Sawatsky, the investigation, dubbed Operation Rock Bottom, was complicated. Three defectors told of "a homosexual Canadian ambassador in Moscow" who might or might not have fallen into a honey trap: Golitsin, defected Dec. 1961, interviewed by RCMP August 1962, Krotkov, defected fall 1963, interviewed by British intelligence, and Nosenko, defected Feb 1964. CIA suspected N. was a KGB plant and did not pass his information on until August 1964; they did not permit RCMP to interview him (says S).
 * Martin's Wilderness says that Nosenko provided the details that convinced them it had to be W, telling the story of the dastardly Khruschev half-openly taunting W. as gay. S. agrees that Nosenko provided the key details. S. has details of the entrapment, supposedly in 1954, on a trip outside Moscow. KGB later arranged for 'Kamahl' to spend time alone with W. in Moscow and had photos of their rendezvous. When did they tell W. they had him on film? S. says more than a year later, just before W was to return to Ottawa in a senior post. Would you be interested in a scan of the 10 pages or so from S. that cover the case? Isn't there some way we can email on wiki? Rgr09 (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've seen "Rock Bottom" in a couple places. One article, I think it was in upi.com, referred to as the investigation. Another said it was a code name or cryptonym for Watkins. For this part of the story, most sources I have seen go directly to Sawatsky or other sources citing Sawatsky, so I am inclined to trust him.
 * When you write "Nosenko provided the details that convinced them it had to be W", I assume that "them" means "CIA" since the RCMP did not interview him. I thought I read yesterday (don't remember the source) that N did not refer to Watkins by name and that the CIA figured it out. Also, I am not sure why the CIA or RCMP need N to figure out who was the "homosexual Canadian ambassador in Moscow" to which Golitsyn referred. Not counting John Wendell Holmes who was gay, but technically "only" chargé d'affaires, there had been four Canadian ambassadors to the USSR by the time Golitsyn defected. Clearly multiple sources confirming something is good, and W at the October 1955 drinking party with Khruschev - whether or not he was taunted or not - would have been well documented.
 * There may be a way to e-mail documents, but let's hold off on that for now. - Location (talk) 16:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * One thing I noticed regarding the timeline: Watkins became ambassador to the Soviet Union in January 1954, in April 1955 he met "Aloysha"/Gribanov, the Pearson/Khrushchev meeting was in October 1955, he left Moscow for Ottawa in April 1956. From what you mentioned about, it appears Gribanov set up Watkins about a year before he met him. Glazov (p54) states "these events occurred just before Watkins was recalled to Ottawa". - Location (talk) 19:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * According to Sawatsky, David Johnson, Canadian ambassador to Moscow 1956 to 1960, was also gay. A gay embassy clerk was caught in a honey trap in 1960. The clerk reported it to Johnson, who reported it to Ottawa. The clerk was interrogated and provided "B Branch" a list of Canadian diplomatic personnel whom he had been involved with or whom he believed to be gay. A number of gay diplomatic personnel were investigated and dismissed based on this list (being gay was cause for dismissal). Johnson was on the list. He was interrogated and admitted he was having an affair with another embassy official in Moscow, but denied he had had relations with any Russians or been blackmailed. Johnson and his lover both resigned as well. Johnson was thus the first suspect when Golitsin's report reached the RCMP.
 * However, according to S, there were "clues which did not match up well" with Johnson, and Watkins became a suspect even before Krotkov's defection. RCMP began reviewing Watkins' Moscow dispatches at this point. Sawatsky says that Krotkov "placed the timing closer to Watkin's tour of duty than Johnson," but "he had not produced enough evidence for the Security Service to roust [Watkins] out of retirement for an interrogation, especially since Watkins suffered from a heart condition."
 * When Nosenko defected, S writes that during his debriefing (doesn't say which of the many this was), N "positively pinned down the elusive ambassador as Watkins." S does not give a direct quote for what N said. He gives an indirect quote: "Nosenko said Khruschev had half-openly mocked Watkins' homosexuality at a freewheeling dinner party at his Crimean dacha...After many toasts the exuberant Khruschev proposed a toast to women while noting that not everyone prsent loved women." S remarks "years later the incident was backed up by Pearson's posthumous memoirs" and cites a passage in P.
 * S continues: "The CIA withheld Nosenko's identification of Watkins because it suspected the defector was a KGB plant dispatched to undermine Golitsin. The CIA did not pass along the lead until August and even then did not let anybody from Canada interview Nosenko." There is more than one way to interpret all this. I believe S means that N's description of the party with K pinned it down to Watkins. Johnson did not participate in this event. CIA did not inform RCMP of N's party description AT FIRST, but did LATER in August. Did CIA realize that N's description pinned it to Watkins? Don't know.
 * Acc. to S, by the time RCMP was notified of Nosenko's debriefing statements, Security Service had read every dispatch Watkins wrote from Moscow and afterwards looking for evidence that W tried to steer Canada toward a Pro-Soviet line, but: "The mass of the files overwhelmed the RCMP and really provided no firm evidence. The Security Service could resolve the matter only by going to Paris and confronting Watkins." Rgr09 (talk) 23:37, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. My bad on Johnson. I think I saw that briefly in Gary Kinsman & Patrizia Gentile's The Canadian War on Queers when looking for sources.
 * I swear I saw something the other day that said Nosenko did not explicitly mention Watkins to the CIA, but Lord knows where. I'll let you know if I find it. - Location (talk) 00:25, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If it worked properly, I sent you an e-mail in regards to obtaining the pages from Sawatsky. Cheers! - Location (talk) 19:52, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Got it, I'll respond today or tomorrow. 23:40, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Per Sawatsky page 173... Two British officers (from MI5 and MI6) involved with the CIA in debriefing Golitsyn traveled to Ottawa around April 1962 to brief the RCMP Security Service. They shared Golitsyn's lead about the "blackmail operation against a homosexual Canadian ambassador who had fallen into a sex trap." Leslie James Bennett and Sweeny had to wait until August 1962 to interview him themselves in a Washington DC safehouse. A couple questions: Do you have names for the two British officers? Do you have a first name for Sweeny? One comment: Sawatsky says Operation Rock Bottom was "the hunt for the unknown ambassador", whereas I had the impression that it was the investigation of Watkins. Thank you again for sending this to clear things up! - Location (talk) 18:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sweeny is Charles Sweeny, a senior officer in the security service who eventually became head of B Branch (Counterintelligence). Don't know names of British officers who first informed RCMP of Golitsin's information. Code names become very elastic after a while. I've read docs in the JFK Assassination Records Collection where CIA HQ complains that a codename was used so loosely they couldn't tell what aspect of a project it referred to. Rgr09 (talk) 01:30, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Got it! It may not be relevant here, but I would be interested in seeing that document from the JFK files if you recall where it is. By the way, is this Sawatsky with ISBN 0385146825 published by Doubleday (Toronto)? - Location (talk) 19:28, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's an earlier book by Sawatsky called Men in the Shadows. For Services Rendered is Doubleday Canada, 1982, ISBN 0385176600. re JFK doc, I have been reading so much ARC stuff recently that I can't recall what doc it was. I'll put up a link to it if I find it again. Rgr09 (talk) 00:33, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops. The title appears in the pdf and I should have known that the publication date of Men in the Shadows did not fit the timeline of the revelations. BTW, there is a review of FSR here: https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/JCS/article/view/14647/15716. Beeby/Kaplan refer to a two-part series by Sawatsky published in papers. I assume that it is the same material as in FSR, but let me know if you come across that. Thanks again! - Location (talk) 00:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the defection and revelations of Yuri Krotkov, the 1984 book by Rupert Allason/Nigel West appears to suggest that Krotkov was a plant and he was attempting to muddle up the information that Golitsyn (i.e. "KAGO") had given up 18 months earlier. The material he gave on Watkins was simply to boost his credibility. Due to the snippet views, I cannot read the entire passage for full context. Wondering if you have additional information on this. - Location (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A Matter of Trust (US ed. is The Circus: MI5 Operations) says DI(a), MI5's Soviet counterintelligence operations branch, decided K was giving them disinformation on homosexual honey traps in order to cover up KGB operations in Paris(!?). No idea what that means, but there is a problem earlier in West's book, when he says information about Watkins had previously been given by KAGO (Golitsyn) and AEFOXTROT (Nosenko). In fact Krotkov defected before Nosenko and acc. to Sawatsky, info about Watkins came first from Golitsyn, then from Krotkov, then from Nosenko.
 * West (or his sources) sometimes have issues. However, West's History Dictionary of British Intelligence says: "Krotkov was allowed to settle in the United States, but he was never accepted as an entirely authentic defector." (see amazon preview). Maybe cite the Historical Dictionary for the doubt rather than A Matter of Trust. One example of non-official suspicion about Krotkov can be see in this angry review of one of Krotkov's books.Rgr09 (talk) 11:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. I didn't ping you 'cause I figured you're involved in some other project right now.
 * Yes, Sawatasky is clear that the order was Golitsyn, Krotkov, and Nosenko, and that is consistent with what we know about when each one defected. Unless there are additional references for the claim that he revealed information related to Watkins simply to add credibility to a disinformation campaign, I think it's best to leave it out. I hope to add the material related to Nosenko soon. Thanks again! - Location (talk) 16:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Entrapment
Sawatsky writes that Watkins "cruised Ottawa's gathering spots and sometimes made a wrong approach and got beaten up. He knew about KGB tactics and once posted to Moscow realized he could not cruise. ... His resolve weakened in the fall of 1954 during an extended trip through the Soviet Union's southern republics when i a Muslim area he met a young man, hardly in his twenties, named Kamahl. ... Kamahl's boyishness and innocence appealed to Watkins and, so far from Moscow, he thought it would be safe. ... He invited young Kamahl to his room. Evidently the hotel staff spotted the pair entering the room and a few months later Watkins received a letter from Kamahl saying he would be visiting Moscow for the his first time and would appreciate being shown the city. Kamahl's visit had been staged by the KGB and by the time the kindly Watkins had entertained him and liaised with him--each time in Kamahl's hotel room--the KGB had all the photographs it needed."

Sawatsky's description of KGB post honey trap blackmail tactics is very interesting but too long to quote here. One way to interpret all this is that KGB found out about a real assignation and coopted "Kamahl" to set up a honey trap. Gribanov was a VERY senior KGB officer. If I have read Sawatsky right, he believes that that Gribanov became involved AFTER the KGB discovered that Watkins was vulnerable to a honey trap, perhaps even after Watkins stepped in the trap. His job was to make sure the high risk operation was not screwed up, and he apparently did a superb job of it. Pretty blood-curdling to read about though. Rgr09 (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2020 (UTC)


 * It doesn't sound like either of us is wanting to tackle it, but an article on Gribanov would be interesting, as would one on the RCMP's "gay purge". - Location (talk) 19:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Investigation
P. 176 of Sawatsky appears to state William Higgitt selected Harry Brandes as Leslie Bennett's #2. Do you know what position Higgitt held at that time, and if there is a page number for it in Sawatsky? His Wikipedia article currently states: "He returned to Canada in 1963 as a Superintendent where he resumed his work in the Security Service in Ottawa." Thanks! - Location (talk) 17:37, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Acc. to Sawatsky, Higgitt held several positions in the RCMP: head of B Branch, director of security service, and RCMP commissioner (p. 331). Sawatsky identifies H as "the new head of B Branch" on p. 83. This must have been in 1956 or 57. B Branch was counter-intelligence. Per the WP bio, Higgitt became a superintendent (police rank) in 1963, assistant commissioner and director of Security Service in 1967, and RCMP Commissioner in 1969. Bennett was head of B Branch's Russian desk, so it makes sense that in 1964 Higgitt, as head of B Branch, might assign Brandes to work with Bennett on Rock Bottom. The reason Sawatsky is talking about all these assignments is that Sexsmith and Brandes were the ones who investigated Bennett when he was accused of being a mole. I had not read the whole book through, so I missed a very weird twist here: Sawatsky says CIA believed Bennett switched Watkins' tablets during the interrogation, presumably to do him in! (p. 305-306) Bennett was actually asked this question, and denied it. Bennett was eventually cleared of the grotesque mole claims, but Sawatsky says Sexsmith suspected this crap was true. There was no autopsy, so no evidence one way or another. What evidence, I wonder. Traces of cyanide? Ha! Let me know if you want a direct quote. Man, those CI guys were wackos. Or are they still? Rgr09 (talk) 06:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding the timeline of Higgitt's position, it appears as though you are stating that he was head of B Branch at the time of Watkins' interrogation... but his title was Superintendent at that time, too? I am not sure how to refer to him in the article.
 * Where on Earth did the CIA get the idea that Bennett switched Watkins tablets? Given the times - even what we are seeing in the world today - I am not sure that the idea that Watkins was poisoned would be off the table as crazy fantasy. Working with the assumption that Bennett could be a mole, perhaps they were fishing with that question.
 * Regarding CI wackos, yesterday morning I stumbled upon this draft of A Review of Counterintelligence Literature by Cleveland Cram. (This is the official NARA release and this appears to be the finished product, but the other draft is searchable. [Edit: Just realized you linked to this above.]) Cram touches on the conspiracy theories of James Jesus Angleton and how he used writers like Edward Jay Epstein and Robert Moss to spread his "propaganda". The article on JAA needs a ton of work, too, but it won't be done by me! - Location (talk) 15:24, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Re Higgitt position. This confused me too. Superintendent is a police rank, one step above inspector (in Canada). It was not Higgitt's job title. Acc. to S. there were superintendents who served as branch heads in the Security Service, so I think its possible in this case. H went to England as B Branch head; I do not know for sure that he was still B Branch head when he came back, but it seems a safe assumption, otherwise why usurp the powers of whoever else WAS branch head by appointing seconds for Bennett.
 * Bennett, by the way, was a civilian member of the Service, unlike Sexsmith and Brandes who were police with police rank. This, according to S, is one reason Bennett was treated so very poorly. The structure of the Service was very confusing to me, S doesn't really give a clear, direct overview. The current CSIS is purely civilian. Rgr09 (talk) 01:29, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Cryptonym problems
I found the document I mentioned above in the JFK ARC, where CIA HQ complains about problems understanding what a cryptonym refers to. The document is JFKARC 104-10189-10029, available here. There is actually a series of dispatches back and forth between HQ and Mexico City on this problem. In the dispatch cited, MC remarks "The errors pointed out in reference A are due largely to the application of cryptonyms over the years to operations related to, but yet distinct from, those to which the cryptonym was originally assigned." This is in the context of an extensive array of operations against the Cuban consulate in MC, including phone taps and a photographic base. Rgr09 (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing! Of the thousands upon thousands of documents released, I wonder how you found that one. I could only read the first page of it. Interesting that it was signed by "Willard C. Curtis" who is a pseudonym for Winston M. Scott per Jefferson Morley.
 * Sawatsky does seem to make it clear that the name "Rock Bottom" was the name of the operation to find the alleged spy/mole. - Location (talk) 19:16, 8 November 2020 (UTC)