Talk:John Wayne Gacy/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Vaticidalprophet (talk · contribs) 11:03, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

On the whole, excellent work and an excellent read. I'm looking forward to passing this, and it's solidly FA-track, let alone GA; I've read a decent amount about this case, yet still learned quite a bit new from the footnotes especially. There are some nits to pick, and I'll pick them as we go.


 * One of Gacy's earliest memories was being beaten with a leather belt for accidentally disarranging car engine components his father had assembled.[10] His mother tried to shield her son from his father's abuse, which only resulted in accusations that he was a "sissy" and a "Mama's boy" who would "probably grow up queer".

Possibly "Queer" here as a piped link should be specifically to Queer?


 * During the fourth grade, Gacy began to experience blackouts. He was hospitalized on occasion because of the seizures

Blackouts and seizures are different. Which was he experiencing? Both?


 * Once in 1957, he witnessed Gacy's father shouting at his son for no reason, then begin hitting him.

This sentence is mildly confusing; I can picture someone, especially a non-native speaker, combining it with the previous sentence to think the friend was hitting the elder Gacy. Considering the 1. meaninglessness and 2. physical altercation are the focal points here, I think this can be simplified down to something like "Once in 1957, he witnesses Gacy's father assaulting his son for no apparent reason".


 * Marlynn's father subsequently purchased three Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) restaurants in Waterloo, Iowa, and the couple moved there so he could manage the restaurants, with the understanding that they would move into Marlynn's parents' home—vacated for the couple.

This sentence is fairly long, and tries to make up for it with a few different kinds of sentence breaks that just read more awkwardly. Suggested rewrite: "Marlynn's father subsequently purchased three Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) restaurants in Waterloo, Iowa. The couple moved there so he could manage the restaurants, with the understanding that they would move into Marlynn's parents' former home, which had been vacated for the couple."


 * When Gacy's parents visited in July 1966, his father privately apologized for the physical and emotional abuse he had inflicted throughout his son's childhood and adolescence and said: "Son, I was wrong about you" as he shook Gacy's hand.

(Heartwarming, if you ignore literally everything else.) I don't think that needs the colon.


 * In Waterloo, Gacy joined the local Jaycees chapter

So Jaycees is linked a little further up, but you can't necessarily assume people are reading articles in order, and the organization is obscure to...probably everyone who isn't in it. Considering the gap between this and the previous link, I would recommend linking here as well.


 * Gacy plied Voorhees with alcohol, allowed him to watch a stag movie, then persuaded him to engage in mutual oral sex, adding: "You have to have sex with a man before you start having sex with women."

(Do you now?) As prior, I don't think the colon here is necessary.


 * Two doctors examined him over a period of 17 days before concluding he had an antisocial personality disorder (which incorporates constructs such as sociopathy and psychopathy)

I wonder what to do with this phrase. Antisocial personality disorder is usually referred to directly rather than preceded with 'an', but more concerningly, I'm unsure whether "includes constructs such as sociopathy and psychopathy" makes the sentence better or worse. On the one hand, both concepts are...questionable; on the other hand, a general reader population is far more likely to have a reference for them than for ASPD. Probably it should be kept, just dropping the 'an', but I'm mentioning this just to stake it.


 * In 1971, Gacy established a part-time construction business, PDM Contractors (PDM being the initials for 'Painting, Decorating, and Maintenance').

This is a mildly amateurish-sounding sentence. The single quotes should be double quotes, IMO. I'm unsure on the necessity of the brackets, rather than just "PDM Contractors, PDM being".


 * In late 1975, Gacy joined and created his own clown characters: "Pogo the Clown" and "Patches the Clown".

Per prior comments on colon overuse. (I'm not noting every colon use, because I think some of them in this article have been used properly, but this should just be a comma at most.)


 * Some professional clowns have noted the sharp corners Gacy painted at the edges of his mouth are contrary to the rounded borders that they normally use, so as not to scare children.

This is a really interesting footnote. I'm unsure whether it's best featured where it is, or in the caption on the Pogo picture -- I think it's more relevant in the caption.


 * Antonucci later recalled that Gacy told him: "Not only are you the only one who got out of the cuffs, you got them on me."

Per prior on colon.


 * Gacy conned Cram into donning handcuffs, in front of his body.

This is an odd sentence, and it took me quite a while to parse it. Is the statement here that he was cuffed with his hands/arms in front of him rather than behind? It's not expressed particularly clearly.


 * A month later, Gacy appeared at Cram's bedroom door intending to rape him, saying: "Dave, you really don't know who I am. Maybe it would be good if you give me what I want." Cram resisted, straddling Gacy, who left the bedroom, stating, "You ain't no fun."

Per prior on colon for the first sentence. The second sentence seems overpunctuated. I don't think there needs to be a comma before the quote.


 * Rossi sometimes assisted Gacy in clowning at grand openings of businesses; Gacy as Pogo and Rossi as Patches.

Ironically, this is a point where you would use a colon, but you used a semicolon instead.


 * Gacy usually lured a lone victim to his house, although on approximately three occasions, Gacy had what he called "doubles"—two victims killed in the same evening.

Now, it's been a while since I read much on Gacy, so perhaps this is the best you can say -- but approximately three sounds...odd. It's not like he could have done so on 2.8 or 3.4 occasions. Can this just be "three" or is the matter so unclear that saying it in Wikipedia-voice would be hopelessly misleading?


 * With his victim manacled, and unable to free himself, Gacy then made a statement to the effect that: "The trick is, you have to have the key."

Couple of notes here: colon is unnecessary, "manacled, and unable to free himself" doesn't need the comma.


 * He frequently began by sitting on the chest before forcing his victim to fellate him.

"The" chest is odd phrasing; is the reference to the victim's chest or some physical object?


 * To immobilize his captives' legs before engaging in acts of torture, Gacy frequently manacled their ankles to a two-by-four with handcuffs attached at each end; an act inspired by the Houston Mass Murders.

Should be a comma and not a semicolon. (Hell, could be a colon!)


 * On July 31, 1975, another of Gacy's employees, an 18-year-old from Lombard, John Butkovich, disappeared.

I think this reads better putting "John Butkovich" before "an 18-year-old from Lombard".


 * According to Gacy, Butkovich approached his car, stating, "I wanna talk to you."

No comma necessary before this quote.


 * One neighbor later recollected that, for several years, the sounds of muffled high-pitched screaming, shouting, and crying had repeatedly wakened her and her son in the early morning hours.

"Wakened" should be "awakened".


 * Donnelly later testified at Gacy's trial that he was in such pain that he asked Gacy to kill him. Gacy replied, "I'm getting round to it."

Per prior on comma before short quotes.


 * Investigators also found handcuffs, books on homosexuality and pederasty, seven pornographic films, capsules of amyl nitrite, and an 18-inch (460 mm) dildo in Gacy's bedroom. A 39-inch (990 mm) two-by-four with two holes drilled into each end, bottles of Valium and atropine, and several driver's licenses were found in the northwest bedroom.

Should the conversions here be centimetres instead of millimetres?


 * The officers who had searched Gacy's house previously had failed to notice this; the house had been cold.

No semicolon needed; the most natural phrasing here reads to me as "failed to notice this, as [or 'because'] the house had been cold".


 * Each victim unearthed from the crawl space was placed in a body bag which was placed near the front door awaiting transportation to the mortuary.

This is something of a run-on sentence, which I think needs a comma after 'bag'.


 * Gacy attempted to convince the doctors that he suffered from a multiple personality disorder.

I don't think this needs the 'a'. (Also, entirely personal language hangup, but I'd prefer something like "had" or "was afflicted by" over "suffered from".)


 * Three psychiatric experts at Gacy's trial testified they found him to be a paranoid schizophrenic with a multiple personality disorder.

Per prior on "a multiple personality disorder", or alternately -- perhaps preferentially -- "a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple personalities".


 * Kunkle also referred to the testimony of one of the doctors who had examined Gacy in 1968 and had concluded he was an antisocial personality, capable of committing crimes without remorse and unlikely to benefit from social or psychiatric treatment, stating that had the recommendations of this doctor been heeded, Gacy would have not been freed.

I think "...Gacy would not have been freed" reads more naturally.


 * He wore a silver ring on the fourth finger of his left hand, suggesting he may have been married.

While the fact "fourth finger" refers to the ring finger is clear when you hover over the text, note that 1. this is not common usage 2. the absolute majority of Wikipedia page views are on mobile, where such is impossible. I would recommend just saying "ring finger".


 * When asked whether there were more victims, Gacy stated, "That's for you guys to find out."

Per prior on commas before short quotes.


 * Gacy later claimed to have engaged in acts of necrophilia twice, while he worked at Palm Mortuary.

I don't think this needs the comma.


 * Because Haakenson and Johnston disappeared just 24 hours apart (and their bones were commingled) they may have been murdered on the same day or even at the same time.

I don't think the brackets here are necessary; the same effect can be replaced with commas, probably even just one comma after "commingled".


 * Some parties have questioned the integrity and thoroughness of the second search conducted of West Miami Avenue; citing the fact the ground of the property was still frozen on the date of the search (March 20), that the press had not been informed that the property had been searched until six days after the search had been conducted, and that the sniffer dogs used had solely been provided core samples of soil to test.

The semicolon here should be a comma.

Overall, despite the list I just gave you, this is once again an excellent article. It's a long list, yes -- but that's because it's a long article, and the quibbles are overwhelmingly grammar or readability. I'm not joking about the FA potential -- aside from those issues, it just flies past GA requirements. This is spectacular work. Give yourself a pat on the back, you deserve it. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 17:31, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * This is much appreciated. Blackouts or seizures is a good question for . I more have him collapsing than convulsing when I picture it in my mind. Also it seems to me linking to queer is fine. The lede gives the two or three senses of the term, and I don't think anybody would confuse Gacy's father for an activist trying to 'take back' the word. I did see your point about the ambiguity with the "once in 1957" bit about Gacy and his father and tried to fix it.  Will begin to do the other fixes.  Cake  (talk) 19:21, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . You are right, he just "passed out for no reason at all". They were blackouts. To the untrained eye, they can sometimes seem like seizures (some books describe them as seizures). The only episode which, although not a seizure, visually appeared to be one, occurred after his arrest just before he was taken to Holy Family Hospital when officers were armed with the second search warrant. According to Amirante, Gacy was "flopping like a fish on a pier", his "color had gone off the charts" and he was salivating. That was an acute psychological response to his predicament though.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:31, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Think that's all the others. Good idea from the review on putting the clown makeup bit under the clown photo - though the photo itself is a bit small. Also, despite the convictions, it's contentious whether he was secretly scaring children or not. Cheers. Cake  (talk) 02:33, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not think it was a deliberate attempt either, . His public image was of course extremely important to him, but sources state he taught himself how to apply the face paint. The feedback here is extremely encouraging, and I hope the article becomes FA. I know I thanked you at least twice last year for working with me to improve this article, but thanks again, Cake. If there are any other outstanding issues I can help with, feel free to ask.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I trust you know but just to go over it. Kunkle - or the prosecution, will bring this up. Pro clowns note it's more like a circus clown playing a mean character than a child's clown. Amirante - or the defense, will counter Gacy was a good clown. That was the good part of his Jekyll and Hyde personality. He was a clown at children's events and stuff. I suppose one could say it was his subconscious saying it was really predatory. One could also say this was pointed out by pro clowns as damage control for the bad press after Gacy in the first place. The stories about his face paint were always accompanied with disclaimers about how he wasnt a super duper official clown. So, in short, it's something anybody familiar with the Gacy case should know. However, there is no consensus about it. That's the long-winded reason for the weasel-wordy "Some".  Cake  (talk) 04:59, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

And oh yes the "approximately three". I too saw that and wondered what it meant. Presumably two to four. Or perhaps Gacy said 3. Article would suggest Samson and Reffett, and Parker and Marino. Then perhaps Haakenson and Johnston, and then the mystery of the unidentified. Cake (talk) 05:11, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Press will focus upon sensational aspects of a case, and authors will follow. The referenced book (Linedecker's) is informative, but copies from newspapers in sections. Clowning was brought up at trial. Amirante quoted from Jekyll and Hide in his closing arguments as he made Gacy stand. I don't know if you'd prefer to replace the image currently upon the article, but the full length picture of Gacy as Pogo was taken in December 1976 by a Martin Zielinski. Gacy said "two or three" times he had killed twice at the same time in his initial confession. Reffett and Stapleton were conclusively identified, but as you know there are disputes re: Parker and, especially, Marino. He later elaborated double murders happened "more than once". The three victims (Johnston, Haakenson and Body 26) were found face down, head to the west in the crawl space.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:33, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The pic is fine really as fair use is easier with a small image, but I dislike it with any caption longer than "Gacy as Pogo". I agree "approximately" was trying to hedge against what we don't know and that we're basing it on Gacy's testimony, but I share the reviewer's concern that it reads like "I've been to that place more than six times" when you could have said "I've been to that place seven times". A suggested rewrite would go: "Gacy usually lured a lone victim to his house, although Gacy sometimes had what he called "doubles"—two victims killed in the same evening.  Gacy and investigators estimated "doubles" happened on three occasions." As an aside since you posted that infamous photo, did he have to go with the eeriest font he could find for 8213? Also interesting how beyond how frightening it is, one clearly sees the diamond window Kozenczak will speak of - and he appears to have some kind of Polish American flags sticker on the window.  Cake  (talk) 14:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * We really should find a way to note that Gacy's dad went to the basement to drink. Often given with a wink and a nod as connected to the murders and burials in the crawl space, even more so than him hiding women's underwear. It seems to make the story of Gacy's assault tie in with the rest a bit better.  Cake  (talk) 00:11, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The house was built in the mid-1950s. I don't known if he changed the numerals sign after he moved in or not - my focus was on the sharp, almost jagged, edges of the wooden base of the sign when I initially viewed it. Investigators noted a distinct lack of "a woman's touch" to his home when they began invesitgating him in Dec 78. As for the basement, the father was a perfectionist and unwilling to allow his family to see any form of weakness or failure within him so he usually drank in private in the basement, likely as he knew his need for the bottle was a sign of weakness. He'd then ascend the stairs in whatever mood the booze brought out in him. He had left school at age 12 to work so did not have much of an education. The fact he referred to his children - John especially - as "stupid" etc. may have been a purging against those weaker than him he saw as some form of threat or potential threat by comparison to himself. The review is on hold for one week so issues will need to be addressed promptly so, hopefully, it can become FA.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:14, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Think you did well with how you added it. The jagged edges on the sign catch my eye too. It seems even more "trying to be scary with sharp corners" than the face paint. Gacy's father accusing him of faking is an interesting dynamic too. Seems harsh and like it's his fathers "perfectionism" - then again it seems like Gacy's entire adulthood is faking heart attacks and making excuses. Inclined to believe his father was insightful on this point. I tried to address all the viewer's concerns, so should be good unless you see something.  Cake  (talk) 11:59, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * One last Gacy query - on one of the surveys Gacy filled out he listed his name as "John Wayne Michael Gacy". Catholics sometimes seem to have an extra name, and his son was Michael. So it seems plausible. Then again, it is rarely mentioned, and many more documents leave Michael off. I suspect you know the story behind this.  Cake  (talk) 01:56, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * His birth certificate lists his full name as John Wayne Gacy. No second middle name. Those "bio reviews" he sent out to those he corresponded with list his full name as John Wayne Michael Gacy. (A Confirmation name?) His son's 1966 birth certificate lists his son's name as "Michael John".--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

, How are we going a month later? I took a look at the page history and it's looking pretty good. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 04:03, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update, . Nice to hear from you. I believe all the listed concerns above have been addressed by and myself. We and others have worked hard to build and improve this article. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 19:07, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. Amidst all the psycho clown discussion, I tried to say, as far as I could tell, all the problems were addressed. Cake  (talk) 00:34, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Very happy to pass this article :) Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:51, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . Regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2021 (UTC)