Talk:John Wimber/Archive 1

Question
"...broke through many 'sound barriers' in the church". Could someone explain what this means, please? DJ Clayworth 18:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Lonnie Frisbee
Why isn't there a mention of Lonnie Frisbee here? unsigned comment by 170.148.10.22 (talk) 05:33, March 24, 2006

Because Lonnie Frisbee really wasn't the "Key figure" that Dave DiSabbitino paints him out to be. Dave simply wants a martyr to reinforce his own liberal view of things and found it in the life of Frisbee which he then glamourized in an overbloated documentary. Lonnie's overall impact on the Jesus movement was actually pretty nil. And thus why this article on John Wimber really says nothing in respect to Lonnie Frisbee, because it adds nothing relevant to John's biography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.31.132.183 (talk) 06:38, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Wimber & the Righteous Bros
“He was raised in a non-religious family but converted to Christianity in May 1963 after some years as keyboard player in the band The Righteous Brothers.”

The Righteous Brothers duo began recording in 1963, and formed no earlier than 1962, according to the Wikipedia entry, and their homepage. Clearly, Wimber could not have played with the “band” for “some years” before 1963. There is some confusion or inaccuracy here. He could have played with some precursor to the group, I suppose, or continued to play after his conversion, but it should be cleared up.


 * Fixed - August 3, 2006 - Dialsforme

Third Wave
The Third Wave is inaccurately described here. The distinction made here between the first, second and third waves are as follows. The first was the Azusa street revival which involved denominations, but also started independent church(es) movement(s) such as the Assemblies of God, Four Square, the Church of God, etc. This first wave sprouted in the 10's and 20's (of the 20th century).

The second wave is associated - attributed by most scholars - as the 'charismatic' movement of post-world war II american Christianity - and it is largely known for its non-denominational character (even though Calvary Chapels and others like it are associated with this second wave). Figures like Oral Roberts, Lester Sumrall, Rex Humbard emerge. Even more modern figures like Rod Parsley, Jesse DuPlantis, and others can be associated with the second wave - known by many as charismatic, church growth, neo-pentecostal movement(s). The problem is that these terms get used interchangeably to describe all three periods. This second wave produced the Jimmy Baker's and Swaggerts which drew attention when they fell - and was satirized by Steve Martin in Leap of Faith (which has him portrayed as the likes of Benny Hinn). This second wave could be charazterized as the 'glam' period. In this genre of neo-pentecostalism, the tongues are displated in worship time, even preaching sessions are interrupted by some who speaks in the glossia - but unlike the uninhibited time during 'praise and worship' - the one-on-one spectacle is usually followed by a translator, if the 'speaking' has been exhibited where the congregation is focused upon it (i.e. one particular message).

This type of exhibitionalism - demanded (as with the first) or encouraged (as with the second) - is not seen in such a degree with the 'third wave'. In other words, it is much more laid back and open. This is what makes the third wave distinct, as one traces the history of the 'pentecostal' movement - one sees digression in emphasizing the necessity to 'produce' (i.e. exhibit, display, the gifts, particularly in the worship setting). For many in the Third wave, forcing it - is more-or-less 'containing' God.

While the Vineyard believes in the 'gifts' (tongues, healing, etc), this article sites that it is exhibition of tongues (gifts) - that marks the 'third wave'. That is incorrect and more attributable to the second wave - one need only to look at televangelism's legacy or TBN. In fact, anyone familiar with the Vineyard's break from the Calvary Chapel movement can see that exhibitional character is what led Wimber to leave. One finds in the 'third wave' an acceptance or appreciation of the gifts, but it is not considered inherent to salvation (as with many of the 'first wave') nor is it presumed to be there at every service. I've been in the Vineyard for several years, and I've never heard one service interrupted by someone speaking tongues, nor have I seen it exhibited. My numerous experience at charasmatic churches 'shoved' the gifts at me - by not exhibiting it - I was 'out of place'. One does not see that at the Vineyard. In fact, one might go to the Vineyard and never know its beliefs (in the gifts) by attending just a worship service. The same can be said by those who derive from the first and second waves. That is the missing point and it is incorrectly stated here.

Vinson Synan now the dean of Regent Divinity School has articulated this very well in several articles (i.e. between the waves). and he has a book called The Holiness-Pentecostal Tradition: charismatic movements in the twentieth century, which discusses this. I would be happy to contribute more if need be. But I hope that it gets corrected. Thanks. Sam Soliman samuel.soliman@yale.edu


 * In the book "Quest for the Radical Middle" doesn't it say that Wimber himself did not like the term "Third Wave"? I seem to remember that and will have to read up on it.  Can anyone confirm that?  Him not agreeing in it could line up with his theological bent...

--dialsforme

Critique section added
I have added this to counteract the lack of balance I perceive in the article. John Wimber, (who I saw "live" at a week long residential event in the 1980s), was alleged to be using an incorrect (non-Biblical) theology by some of the evangelical conservatives who reviewed the Vineyard and its approach to church growth, the running of church services and "soul saving". Where some of these references are available online, I have cited them. Trevor H. (UK) 00:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?
When I arrived at the page at about 12:00 EST today, the article had "John Wimber is a big, fat cunt (who is now dead)." By the time I signed in to report it, it had been removed by someone else, but that along with the notation above about "breaking the sound barrier" would seem to mean this article has been hit by vandals more than a couple of times. Should this article be flagged? --Santiago (talk) 17:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality
The page is labelled with the POV template and, on a quick search, has been since this edit by Cherchez le femme in Sept 2007. There has been no discussion on the Talk page that i can see about neutrality; the article seems to be changed from the time the template was posted; there seems to be a pretty good NPOV, both 'sides' represented in the article. I am therefore removing the template. Please discuss it here, indicate your issue, if you replace it. Cheers, Lindsay 08:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Complementarian...?
I don't remember if it was at a Vineyard in Illinois or California, but we once had guest apostles from Europe who were husband and wife. They maintained (and our church agreed) that when one was called, both were called. Was that a misstatement of the Vineyard position? --Studio 126 (talk) 00:20, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

It probably would depend when you heard that statement. As far as I understand the Vineyard has largely shifted away from the Complementarian viewpoint since Wimber's death. I am in aware in North America that the issue was fairly grey for a number of years, until in 2006 when the Vineyard USA released a statement endorsing women in all levels of leadership, but leaving the final decision down to individual congregations (I assume this was to cater for those congregations that were still in line with Wimber's views). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.16.236.14 (talk) 19:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Obvious omissions: John would not want us hiding from history
As someone who met Wimber and belonged to his Churches for some time, I was surprised to see no mention of Paul Cain, a man he ministered with for some time and with some degree of success. I realize Paul Cain's struggles have now been made public, but so what, the fact that Cain has been wiped out of this aspect of any Wimber history surprises me, and as a historian, I find it deplorable. I also see Lonnie Frisbee is conspicuously missing as well, noted previously. My main concern here is that by taking out important figures in Wimber's life just because they had struggled with "sin" is not going to help anyone in the long run, and when information like this is put back on the record by historians, Christians will once again be asking, 'why wasn't I told the truth about my Church's history?' Examples of how Christians have been kept from their history are too numerous to get in to here. Those people who take it upon themselves to edit out any difficulties or embarrassing associations in the lives of people they look up to are doing a great disservice to truth and integrity, and they are encouraging the social deification of people who never claimed such a status and would flatly denounce any such appellation. Wimber left a positive legacy, who cares that he was unaware of Paul's or Lonnie's issues for a time while ministering with them, we need to tell the story the way it was to the best of our ability and John Wimber will come out looking better for it, because, indeed, he did confront Lonnie (who stepped down) and would have confronted Paul if it was an issue back then as well. For now I will add nothing to the page itself, but I hope that those who know about these things in a more detailed way will at least give the public a summary of how these men worked alongside John in ministry contexts that helped shape the course of the Vineyard Church worldwide. Saintorigen (talk) 22:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Very unclear background
In these days where every famous person can be traced genealogically to their European (and elsewhere) ancestors, it is not to be accepted that this religious celebritiy cannot even be connected to an official birthplace, much less to an ancestry. Wimber is a German name, so who was the first Wimber ot the John Wimber family immigrating from Germany or Austria? It looks like his roots are obscured by persons interested in not letting the truth surface. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.219.90.60 (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

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