Talk:John Zorn/Archive 1

Cobra
I said in an edit summary that cobra linked to the snake - it doesn't, it links to a disambiguation page, but either way, a link there isn't much use, which is why I took it out. If we were to have a link to a page specifically about the pieces, it would probably be Cobra (Zorn) or maybe Cobra (piece of music) (though there could also be Cobra (album). --Camembert

I'm not an expert on the whole Cobra experiment, but I believe it was the set of rules that periodically give rise to pieces of music when a bunch of like-minded musicians get together. So maybe Cobra (Zorn) would be most appropriate, because it's not a piece of music or an album, and I'm not sure that there is a way to describe what it is. It's almost a genre unto itself, maybe a sub-genre of game-music... Mrjohn 10:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I added a new article, Cobra (Zorn). See its Talk page for further comments.

RosinDebow 04:01, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

College Graduate or College Drop-out? - Zorn Influences
I've updated a bit of the JZ biography to include other notable labels that his major pre-Tzadik recordings appeared on (it seemed a bit biased to only credit Nonesuch) and give a bit more background on his influences and major compositional influences/directions. Given that JZ writes in the liner notes of First Recordings 1973 that he discovered Albert Ayer & Anthony Braxton in 1972 I'll assume that he was turned on to free jazz at college, I've also noted the influences of Cage, Varese, Artaud and Bartok as happening but I suspect he would have already been quite hip to Carl Stalling, Frank Zappa and Sci-Fi film music prior to college - all references that JZ noted in the 1995 liner notes to First Recordings.

I note the biography section it says JZ 'dropped-out' of Webster College (now University) yet on the Webster College link it states that he is a notable graduate - can you 'drop-out' after you graduate or is the 'drop-out' just a bit of artistic license? JZ himself states that he spent only two years there so unless he was an advanced student I might edit the Webster page. Not sure who to check with here (unless someone get a copy of his diploma, in which case correct me) DISEman 14:53, 5 January 2007


 * Regarding Zorn's college years, every biography I've read, whether it's on the web or in books, states that Zorn dropped out of the college. In fact, in the original release of the album Spillane, if I recall correctly, he goes on a little rant about some of the professors there in the liner notes, and it sounded like he wasn't happy there.  I'd check for sure about that part, but I don't have the album with me at the moment.  Either way though, I think it's safe to say that he did drop out of the college.  Seems like Webster wants to be associated with a big name like Zorn, even if he didn't graduate from there. -echidnae 17:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Duck call?
Is it really necessary for Zorn to be listed as a "duck call" player before being a saxophonist? How much duck call work has he actually done? Or is this just Zorn-ian irony that i am missing?
 * Glad to see someone else thinks the same way. I'm changing it to saxophonist/multi-instrumentalist.  He did play duck calls on a lot of the early (late 70's/early 80's) improv and game sessions, but since then he has recorded on clarinet, electric piano, and wind machine.

Please Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 20:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I've read a description of Zorn as a 'reed explorer,' which seems to refer to his use of duck calls as an outgrowth of saxophone playing. (In an interview, he said that a local hunting store thought he was a serious 'outdoor sportsman' because he came in and bought so many different duck calls.) The instrument compliments his love for hardcore and cartoon music, since it makes a silly, loud sound. So, he WAS a duck-call player, but he has moved on. The early experiments matter, but not enough to list duck calls as his instrument of choice.67.171.221.2 07:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)Scott Maykrantz

Confusing phrase
In the last paragraph:
 * use of formal of blocks

Uh...I'd fix it, but I have no idea what the author intended here. I don't want to destroy what he or she was trying to say just to fix a grammatical snafu. --Jemiller226 19:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks, fixed. Hyacinth 21:05, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have expanded on the idea of 'blocks' with an broader outline of JZs compositional approach - the use of cues, rules and strategies to provide a bit more detail. DISEman 13:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Uncredited quotation of this page
Check out this article at Jazz Police, it has taken whole sections of this page without crediting Wikipedia. Mrjohn 10:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now they have 202.152.227.4 02:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Also uncredited is the All About Jazz biography which is a straight cut and paste job of an earlier version of this article DISEman 09:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Popular Culture
Is Stephen Colbert's opinion really important ? I don't even know who is that Colbert-Guy, the fact that he has some tv-show does not make his talks more relevant. Rather the contrary, actually. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.199.60.232 (talk) 17:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Breakthrough recordings
It might be a silly question but, does the "Godard" album refers to the french film director or to someone else ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.199.60.232 (talk) 17:31, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Yes "Godard" is a tribute to Jean-Luc (and his jump-cut techniques) as indicated by the photo on the cover of Godard/Spillane DISEman 09:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Morricone Quote
If anyone can find the reference for the Morricone quote it would be greatly appreciated. If it took them till 2007 to award Morricone an Oscar how long before JZ gets one?DISEman 12:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC) S'OK I worked out where it came from DISEman 02:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Game pieces
I just added a new article "game pieces". If this does not occur automatically at some point, I would propose that the mentionings of this concept in the text is made into the usual hypertext reference. Best, Carl Bergstroem-Nielen (talk) 21:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Magick
Clearly, Zorn has a strong affinity for Crowley's A.:A.: as evidenced by his placing the seal of Babalon on the back of several albums. Perhaps this is mostly in the A.:A.:'s spirit of connecting creativity, ecstacy, ritual, and esotericism, but I would love to read more about this. Anyone have a good link? Aaron B. Daniels 14:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have never heard or read anything about Zorn's "affinity" for Crowley. I would hardly say that it is clear.  Without a reputable source, it cannot be added to the article. ---Charles 14:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a chapter devoted to this topic in John Brackett's book: Brackett, John (Ph.D. 2003) John Zorn: Tradition and Transgression. Indiana University Press, 2008 --Nonsensemusic (talk) 21:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

We got a B
The Zorn article got rated as a B-class (Now I know how JZ felt at Webster). I've added some sections (to appeal to the researchers) and will try to fill them out as time permits. Wonder what happened to that great JZ pic? (not my add). Wasn't it Lou Reed that said "Critics! You slave all year and get a B+ from Robert Christgau in the Village Voice. %@#$%@ critics!".DISEman 03:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the reason is kind of obvious. The article is clearly written by die-hard fans (of which I am one). We need to shorten it in some places and take out the biases such as: "extraordinary female vocalists" and the over abundance of direct quotations from Zorn. It is neither a magazine article nor interview with the composer/improviser, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. --Nonsensemusic (talk) 21:38, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Unpopularity Among Women
Shouldn't we mention something about this? Isn't it fair to say that women in general don't like Zorn's music?

Also, we should be asking, WHY is this, why don't they like him? Climenole (talk) 09:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Not too sure if this assertion meets Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I personally know many women who enjoy Zorn's output (although sometimes not ALL of it) and my daughter LOVES JZ even/especially at his most extreme (although this could be an environmental influence).  If we take this to it's logical assertion we could say that women don't like rap, heavy metal, blues, jazz, reggae, punk, (insert genre here)DISEman (talk) 03:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, this does not belong in the article because it is an assertion with no basis in fact. I know women who like Zorn, and both times that I saw him in Chicago, half the audience were women.  Your claim is, quite frankly, silly. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * While the claim that women do not like Zorn's music may be "silly" feminist and Asian-American groups have criticized Zorn's music. Hyacinth (talk) 01:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

My mother is a woman and I like John Zorn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.55.193 (talk) 00:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The criticism of Zorn's album art by an Asian-American Group is noted in the article (see Hardcore section). I'm also aware that his cover art has also received criticism for it's sexual portrayal of children (but am yet to find a reference - which is why it is not noted). Zorn's choice of packaging may have attracted the ire of some but I'm still not aware that this translates to critcism of the content. I have however noted the critcism of his "jewishness" and the responses in the section under Awards and Critical Reception". Any other (referenced) criticisms are, of course, welcome. DISEman (talk) 03:17, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Colbert
Is it really all that important to have?
 * To be totally honest, it was the first I'd heard of Zorn; being that it's probably the most widespread exposure his name has gotten, I'd say it has its place in the article. ccromwell 22:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That's no reason to include it in the article. It will only incite cynicism and derision from the vulgar, uncultured masses. People worship Colbert. They'd laugh at a joke of his even if he made fun of the idea of telling jokes. We must make sure not to give this kind of crude behavior any space to move here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Climenole (talk • contribs) 01:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Zorn liked it. Zazaban (talk) 00:18, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Genres
The genres in the infobox are out of control. Zorn has made use of a number of different styles, combining them into the pastiche of his albums. But, he does not play klezmer or easy listening, per se. Any thoughts? ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 20:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * According to the references, the only "genres" that he self-attributes are avant-garde and experimental music. The rest of the list can be moved to an article section and accompained with some discussion.--Sum (talk) 13:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I just saw this. The revert of another contributor without any justification in the edit summari is an inappropriate move. The klezmer genre is not less justified than the others in the list.--Sum (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Simply allowing the list to continue to grow is no solution. The anon. user who added klezmer offered no explanation or justification for inclusion.  So, I removed it and posted the message above.  I do not believe I erred in doing so.  The point now is to establish criteria, and reduce the size of that list. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  14:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I've moved the genre list to a paragraph in the article body, adding a citation needed inline template. In the infobox I've left only the avantgarde/experimental genre, which is the one Zorn self attributes and the one supported by references.--Sum (talk) 17:59, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

rare radio interview, link should be included
http://www.chris  comerradio.com/john_zorn/john_zorn8-24-1999.htm (take ot the spaces in link) This is a rare radio interview for this artist and should be included on Zorn's wiki page. But for some reason it is blocked as spam(?) so can somebody please post this link at the bottom with the other interviews. There's other great stuff on this site if it can be un-blocked from wiki. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.161.196.18 (talk) 11:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Article is Buried in Minituae
This article reads more like a fan letter than a scholarly article. For example:

"Zorn recalled an episode of his life, after buying a record by Mauricio Kagel in 1968 at the age of fifteen, that influenced his subsequent taste for experimental and avant-garde music..."

"He bought a Kagel record and was influenced" reads like fanboy material. If there is a serious connection between Kagel and Zorn, qualify it.

There is no serious discussion of Zorn's historical context as a composer other than his own opinion that he is not taken seriously, he should not be reviewed, his work goes over people's heads, etc.

It's not necessary to list every single person Zorn has encountered or worked with multiple times, nor all past and planned configurations of these persons, nor each and every live performance and bootleg. Summarize.

This article is way too long, approximately 4x the length of the Wikipedia Stravinsky entry. Even if Zorn were at that level of historical significance it would be way too long. Arcticranger (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed about the minituae. This passage, for example, is ridiculous:


 * "The band released a second EP, Leng Tch'e, in 1992 featuring a single composition which lasted just over half an hour. Radio, released in 1993, was the first Naked City album composed solely by Zorn, and featured tracks drawing on a wide range of musical influences including Charles Mingus, Little Feat, Ruins, Booker T. and the M.G.'s, Colin Wilson, Albert King, Chuck Brown, Orchestra Baobab, the Accüsed, the Meters, Tony Williams' Lifetime, Anton Webern, Sammy Cahn, Frank Sinatra, Morton Feldman, Igor Stravinsky, the Melvins, Beatmasters, Septic Death, Abe Schwartz, Ivo Papasov, Naftule Brandwein, Repulsion, Led Zeppelin, Bernard Herrmann, Santana, Extreme Noise Terror, Conway Twitty, Siege, Ornette Coleman, Corrosion of Conformity, Massacre, Quincy Jones, Sam Fuller, Funkadelic, Carcass, Liberace, Jan Hammer, Eddie Blackwell, Charlie Haden, Mick Harris, Carole King, Red Garland, Boredoms, Jerry Reed, SPK and Roger Williams in addition to Zorn's previously identified touchstones..."


 * This list of individuals could be shortened to "... drawing on a wide range of musical influences ranging from blues and jazz to rock, avant-garde and punk..." and still convey the important information that Zorn is and eclectic listener -- as are many of us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.174.105 (talk) 22:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

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