Talk:Johnny Cash family

Johnny Cash lists seems like a bad idea for a page
You might notice by the history of this page that I've made it a goal to chop this up and move sections to the relevant pages like Johnny Cash discography or individual albums' pages. I'll eventually move what's left to Johnny Cash family or Carter Cash family or something and expand it to discuss individual members of the immediate and extended family and provide links to their respective pages. I'll probably just zap the external links section if that's ok with everybody. Alcuin 13:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Needs to be expanded
Ok, I've gone ahead and moved any remaining worthy information from Johnny Cash lists to the appropriate articles and moved what was left here. The article doesn't look like much yet, but I do intend to expand it, and convert it into text, not just a chart and lists. I fully welcome the help of anyone interested. Alcuin 14:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge into Johnny Cash & elsewhere
I will lay out a case for eliminating this article.

Point 1: This article (Johnny Cash family) is marked with a suggestion that it be merged into "Johnny Cash." The invitation to discuss that suggestion links to the Johnny Cash discussion page, rather than to this discussion page. A bit of discussion has been recorded there but seems to have died off. On the other hand, this discussion page has no mention of the merge suggestion. I am hereby restarting and fleshing out that suggestion.

Point 2: This discussion page seems to be entirely moot. The remaining entries (both by user Alcuin made over a year ago) are about "Johnny Cash lists," "Johnny Cash discography," and (the non-existing) "Carter Cash family." I believe the suggestions are either accomplished long ago, or overtaken by other changes, or no longer relevant. Net: this discussion page is a fossil.

Point 3: A comprehensive article covering the entire Carter-Cash dynasty, its history, its significance to popular music, its influences, etc. might well be worthwhile. The present article isn't that. Instead it's a miscellany of remnants, picked over and left behind by the editors of various (superior) related articles.

Point 4: All the information in this article either does already exist elsewhere or could be better placed elsewhere. The opening paragraph comprises a few statements about Johnny Cash. The section called "Heritage and early years" is mainly about Johhny Cash and could be merged into that article. Same with the section called "First marriage." The secion called "June Carter" is a mix of stuff about the Carter family, Mother Maybelle, June, etc. The section called "Grandchildren" belongs to Johnny's article. And finally, the family tree is as much about the Carter family as it is about Johnny Cash's.

Ok, there it is. Other thoughts? Hult041956 17:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a year ago someone decided that the Johnny Cash page was too long, and several sections of that page were moved from there to a new page, Johnny Cash lists, which was a hodgepodge of information that was deemed too arcane or specific for the main article. I later chopped up the Johnny Cash lists page, moving sections to the relevant album pages or elsewhere.  What remained was a couple paragraphs about his childhood cut from the main page, and information about his relationship with his relatives.  I therefore changed the title from Johnny Cash lists to Johnny Cash family.  Since then, this page hasn't really grown very organically, as it seems it sees little traffic.  I'm open to ideas on what to do with it.  Neither the status quo, nor a merger into the main page seem ideal to me.  In any case, I'm happy with anything you'd like to do with it.  Be bold.  Alcuin 19:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I do support merging it into the Johnny Cash page. Alcuin 19:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Dear Alcuin, I'm glad to see you responded to my suggstion; I was hoping you would. Thanks for the history. It makes sense now. I will "be bold" and see whether I can't make something better out of this. For now though, I'm going to mull it over a bit. I may put another post on this talk page with a set of proposed moves. (Cause it's time I quit for the day.) Hult041956 00:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge-to, each paragraph
Based on the above discussion (and dare I say consensus?), I now propose to carry out the following moves of this article's remaining content into various other articles. (There are eight items listed, each with a proposed resolution.) Speak up if you disagree. Hult041956 02:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Johnny Cash was a very influential musician with a career that spanned nearly five decades. He has a long list of accomplishments and collaborations. A notable extended family includes many of these influences and collaborations.
 * First two sentences are about JC himself and are covered there well enough. Third para had served as thesis of this article; it is now no longer needed anywhere. Proposal: lose this paragraph.
 * Heritage and early years. Cash was of completely Scottish heritage, but he only learned this upon researching his ancestry. After a chance meeting with former Falkland laird Major Michael Crichton-Stuart, he traced the Cash family tree to 11th century Fife, Scotland. He had assumed in his younger days that he was mainly Irish and partially Native American (he had been told he was one-quarter Cherokee). Although lacking any Native American ancestry, Cash's empathy and compassion for Native Americans was unabated, and was expressed in several of his songs, like "Apache Tears", "Ballad of Ira Hayes"; and his album Bitter Tears, songs told from the viewpoint of Native Americans.
 * Entirely about JC himself. Merge anything that appears only here into that article.
 * Cash was born J.R. Cash (no middle name) in Kingsland, Arkansas, and then raised in Dyess, Arkansas. By age five he was working in the cotton fields, singing along with his family as they worked. Cash was one of seven children: Reba Hancock, Jack, Joanne Cash-Yates, Tommy, Roy, and Louise Cash Garrett.  His younger brother Tommy Cash also became a successful country artist, and tours to this day.  Cash was very close to his brother Jack, who was two years older. In 1944, Jack was pulled into a whirling table saw in the mill where he worked, and almost cut in two. He suffered for over a week before he died. There was some talk that Jack's death might not have been accidental; a local bully was seen running from the shop with blood on his shirt, shortly before Jack was found. However, Cash did not discuss that theory in his autobiography, nor the report in some circles that Cash made investigation of the incident a personal obsession. Cash often spoke of the horrible guilt he felt over this incident. According to Cash: The Autobiography, his father was away that morning, but he and his mother, and Jack himself, all had premonitions or a sense of foreboding about that day, and his mother urged Jack to skip work and go fishing with his brother. Jack insisted on working, as the family needed the money. On his deathbed, Jack said he had visions of Heaven and angels. Decades later, Cash spoke of looking forward to meeting his brother in Heaven. He wrote that he had seen his brother many times in his dreams, and that Jack always looked two years older than whatever age Cash himself was at that moment. It is widely thought that the dark side of his world view was shaped by this traumatic event.
 * Essentially about JC himself. References to family members (most of whom do not have articles) do not warrant separate article. Merge anything that appears only here into JC article.
 * First marriage. While training for the Air Force in 1950, Cash met Vivian Liberto near San Antonio, Texas. A month after his discharge, Cash married Vivian on August 7, 1954.  Together, they would have four daughters, Rosanne, Kathleen, Cindy and Tara before divorcing in 1966.  Rosanne Cash would eventually have a very successful recording career on her own.  She and her step-sister Carlene Carter sing songs on Cash's 1976 album Junkie and the Juicehead Minus Me.  Rosanne has released many albums since the late 70s, many of them are produced by her former husband Rodney Crowell.  In 2003, Rodney and Johnny Cash would re-record "I Walk the Line" together.
 * Again, merge anything new and worthwhile into JC.
 * In the early 60s, Cash would tour with the legendary Carter Family. Though originally founded by Mother Maybelle Carter, her brother-in-law A.P. Carter and his wife Sara Carter in the 1920s, by this time Maybelle's daughters Anita, June and Helen also regularly toured with the group.  During the tours, June recalls admiring Johnny from afar.  In 1967, their duet "Jackson" won a Grammy Award.  Cash proposed onstage to Carter at a concert at the London Gardens in London, Ontario on February 22, 1968; the couple married a week later in Franklin, Kentucky.
 * Merge first sentence into JC. Remainder of article is about the Carter family, not the Cash family...merge into the former.
 * June Carter had previously been married twice. From 1952 to 1956 she was married to honky-tonk singer Carl Smith, with whom she had Carlene Carter in 1955.  Married to race car driver Edwin "Rip" Nix from 1957 to 1966, June gave birth to Rosie Nix Adams in 1958.  Shortly after his historic concert at Madison Square Garden in the early months of the 1970s, his son (and only child with June) John Carter Cash was born on March 3rd, 1970.  All three of June's children would go on to have successful solo careers in country music.  Carlene was married to English musician Nick Lowe in the 1980s.  John Carter is a record producer and author.
 * Merge into June Carter Cash
 * Both Johnny and June Carter Cash died in 2003. Johnny is survived by 16 grandchildren.
 * Check that first sentence is contained both in Johnny's and June's articles. Second sentence into JC.
 * Family Tree diagram
 * Lose it. It appears already in the Carter family article.
 * It's not there. My mistake. I thought I had seen it there.  Proposal: merge this diagram into Carter family. Hult041956 02:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't need anyone's approval make an edit. Nevertheless you've got my full support.  Be bold and make it happen already.  Alcuin 03:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, it's done! I moved anything worth saving into Johnny Cash, June Carter Cash, and Carter Family, pretty nearly according to the plan presented above.  Now, what should become of this page? Many pages linked here, but usually because the  navigation template did so.  I removed the link in that template, to reduce the number of links-to-here. Can this page simply be deleted?  Must an admin do that?  Hult041956 22:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Disposition
After reaching consensus through discussion (above) on this talk page, I merged all remaining content of "Johnny Cash family" into Johnny Cash, June Carter Cash, and Carter Family. I also changed the Johnny Cash navigation template so that it has no link to "Johnny Cash family". The link in that template was the source of most links to the article. Here and there were a few other links to it, which I also removed. After this, Alcuin converted the (now empty) article to a redirect page. This is how it should remain. Finis. Hult041956 16:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)