Talk:Joker (The Dark Knight)

Divide the article..
into sections and add categories.. --Tito Dutta (talk) 07:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The article needs a complete overhaul. References, writing, pictures, impact - Literally everything. I havent even finished importing the character from the other Wikipedia articles where it was scattered. We really need to tackle everything one at a time. I suggest we start with references, and mining all of them. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In case you are copying from other article(s), are you giving attribution? You just copied my post here! --Tito Dutta (talk) 08:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Do talk pages also require attribution? :P Sorry for that but I thought it was better here, so I moved it. (And informed you)
 * As for the attribution, I dont really think it shall be necessary. The paragraphs shall be perhaps moved here. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:15, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:CWW --Tito Dutta (talk) 08:17, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Copying done. Now it needs a complete rewrite. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Good stuff people. You just need to attract more editors to this page, so everything can be fixed faster. --Carrot Lord (talk) 12:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I did try. But I wouldnt hope for a lot. Usually, there are no more than 2/3 editors on a single page. So I dont think we are likely to find many others. Plus, 2/3 editors working together ought to be enough to get this article in good shape, I think TheOriginalSoni (talk) 21:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned references in The Joker (Heath Ledger)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of The Joker (Heath Ledger)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Halbfinger": From The Dark Knight (film):  From Heath Ledger:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 08:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WooHoo! The article is being copyedited, we hope to fix it soon! --Tito Dutta (talk) 08:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:04, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Custom template
I added a custom template to the top of the page. Why does this article have no sub-sections? No hierarchy or cloud based structure? It needs some structure. Right now, there's just one block of giant text and one block of giant references. Not readable at all... --Carrot Lord (talk) 12:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I know. My first objective was to copy/move whatever was already on Wikipedia to this article, references included. The next is to get everything into sections, and then get all references. Then will be to mine those references ans so on... TheOriginalSoni (talk) 21:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Move to Heath Ledger as the Joker?
I think Heath Ledger as the Joker will be a better name for the article than the current. Any thoughts? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:27, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

The Joker Make-up Influence from 1985 painting?
Could be the inspiration for Ledger's make-up be from Bill Vuksanovich's 1985 painting 'Business Clown'?

http://americangallery.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/bill-vuksanovich-1938/

http://tullman.blogspot.co.uk/2005/07/new-art-from-forum-gallery-in-new-york.html

http://www.tullman.com/collection/collection.asp?artID=V — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.90.121.231 (talk) 02:46, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Would there be any sources which specifically say that? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Article and Topic Focus
I am carefully considering making bold and major changes and contributions to this article. If there is an article guideline for this kind of topic (specific work of preformance art), I have not found it. Thus, alternatively, the style of the article could be inspired by those articles on other specific art works, such as paitings or music numbers. Let me share some of my thoughts with the treatment of this very article:

1. First and foremost, to clarify, this article is- for necessary reasons- about the portrayal of The Joker, by Heath Ledger in the 2008 film The Dark Knight. For this subject to have any valid reason for existing seperatly from The Dark Knight (film)- article, it has to do more than simply mention the Jokers role within the film. It must present the performance of the character as a seperate, yet dependent, artistic work. This also suggests a slight change on title/headline. Instead of "The Joker (The Dark Knight)" (which puts focus on the film), it could be "The Joker (Heath Ledger)" or "Heath Ledger's Joker" (or somthing that puts more focus on the actual performance, the very subject of the article).

2. Concerning the contents of the article, it can be vastly improved. The article contain texts as if cut- and pasted from The Dark Knight (film)- article. More in depth information is requierd for its own validity, and the text demands a better coherent style/ structure. Improvements can be made by presenting information about background, methods (such as character development, execution) and description. Finally, the Reception piece of the article should cover the subject more broadly. There is a general recepetion from audiences and critics, then there is the influence on the acting community (such as praise and acknowledgement from actors and directors like Tom Hardy, Tom Hiddleson, Guillermo del Toro and many others).

With valid sources (such as from Vanity Fair, Empire Magazine) I will boldly start editing this article for the better, based on the assumptions mentioned above. Over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WforRight (talk • contribs) 22:09, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Description
There is information that is not supported by any source at all, yet a alone a valid one. It reads; "With an aged face consistent with that of a man in his mid-30's or early-40's (showing crow's feet and a stressed forehead)". I will remove any unsupported statement, and this one is.

Furthermore in the description, it reads; "although very briefly, he can be seen without his makeup and hair coloring when he's disguised in another cop's uniform along with his goons dressed the same during Commissioner Loeb's memorial ceremony, attempting to kill the mayor with an officer's rifle." This must be edited. First, it mention's plot- this is an article of a performance, so focus must be kept on that. By the way, I wonder if it is at all necessary to mention that the character once appear without makeup. Description already describe the character's appearence; scarred under the makeup. Some scenes have the the makeup more sweaty and grubby, some has it more in order, and one without- it all has to do with plot and I do not think that kind of plot detail belongs to this Wikipedia article. However, I could maybe see some kind of argument for mentioning that the character sometimes disguises himself (nurse and honor guard)- but again, is it not plot more than anything else?

So, I will remove the first mentioned statement about the character's face being consistent with that of a middle aged man. And I am considering changing the second mentioned statement about when and where the character is with and without makeup, or maybe just remove it all together if it is judged as unappropriate (as I suspect it to be). — Preceding unsigned comment added by WforRight (talk • contribs) 17:05, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Topic of the Article?
Is this article about the character, the Joker, as portrayed in the film The Dark Knight? The italics used in the heading and even in the body make it sound like it is its own mini film. I have found a few sources talking about a 6-7 minute short film Nolan made as a prelude to The Dark Night shot on 70 mm IMAX film. It sounds like it was a preview, perhaps not it's own work. It's hard to tell and I haven't looked in to it much. The musical score note in the lede makes me wonder. However, the poor quality and (including total incomplete sentences!) make me wonder.162.206.141.210 (talk) 20:49, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, I went back to the first few versions of this article and it is definitely about the character. I see recent changes to the article want to make this about Ledger's portrayal of the character, as if it is a piece of art, with a title in quotes or italics. I have tried to keep this wording, however, this article should be about the portrayal ***of a character***. There are more facets to it than Ledger's portrayal alone. I'll leave it at that.Belltoes (talk) 12:31, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi! I have been editing this article, and pretty boldly so. The intention was always, and will always be, to improve the quality of the page. I have explained myself here on this very talk page about my thoughts on this article (please read above). Now, I want to clerify it. Yes, like Belltoes mentions, the first version of this article treated Heath Ledger's Joker as an original character. However, that is simply not true, there is nothing that supports that this character is original. It is a portrait of an already existing classic supervillain; DC Comics the Joker. The Dark Knight features Ledger's interpretation of the character, this is even mentioned as such in the Joker's article (which is a good article) as it links to this article. I totaly also agree with Belltoes about this being about the portrayal of a character. And yes, there are more facets to it than Ledger's portrayal alone, and it is somewhat mentioned in this article already and could be more developed, of course. However, I think that more indepth information about the character's role within the film and further aspects of it outside the performing arts belongs to the actual film atricle. For the validity of this article existence outside the film article, it needs to present Ledger's performance as a separate, yet dependent, artistic work. Painters paint, actors perform. Artists create art. This is Ledger's work, and thus this is about his art, that is part of the "huge machine" we call The Dark Knight. - And I do apologize for the confusion I made by making the Joker's name appear with italics. Since I have not found a guideline for articles about a specific performing art, I have been looking at other wiki-articles about specific art works for inspiration (In particular, I used a featured article of a painting as inspiration).WforRight (talk) 20 October 2015 —Preceding undated comment added 22:02, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * We still use infobox on adapted characters. See Clark Kent (Smallville) and Oliver Queen (Arrow). Jhenderson  7 7 7  13:34, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

character v. performance

 * Thank you, Jhenderson777, for your links. You are the first to productively respond to any of my edits, suggestions or questions. My original thought was that the topic should be about an actor's work, much like that of other artists' who portrait a subject; like a painter's painting, or a musician's suite. But now I am thinking that maybe the article should change and adapt its form to that of Clark Kent (Smallville), being about a character of a film rather than a work of an artist. If that would be the case, I would guess that this article needs more bold edits. I do not want to continue editing before I know how to properly contribute. So must this article change its focus? Thank you all! User:WforRightundefined 24 October 2015 —Preceding undated comment added 22:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

About Film section of the article.
The film-section very much summarizes the plot of the film. It belongs to the Dark Knight- article. Sure, it keeps the Joker in focus, but... Why? And better; Exactly how? I'm thinking about developing it. Right now, it just kind of babbles on about what the Joker does within the plot. If anybody is curious about the films plot, the article mentions The Dark Knight as it links to its article. So my first thought is; remove the film-section all together, it is not needed. My second thought is; do not give up on it, but develop it.

So here is my suggestion for development of the section; "Film" could instead summarize... 1) The Jokers objective role in the plot of the film, shortly within one paragraph. Exempli gratia, "The Joker appears in Gotham in a heist... He kills people until Batman's identity is revealed... He is apprehended by Batman." 2) The character's appearance in a second paragraph. "Ambigiuous backstory... Attracts lunacy... Has henchmen... Uses simple implements, such as knifes, gasoline and small arms". 3) The character's philosphy in a last paragraph. "Calls himself an 'agent of chaos'... Identifies himself with his conflict with Batman, and them both as 'freaks'... Targets elected officials to cause anarchy and chaos... Thrives on conflict."

So, yes, I am thinking about editing the film-section into these three paragraphs mentioned just above. That would not be wrong of me now, would it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WforRight (talk • contribs) 22:16, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Jared Leto's Joker?
I love how major Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker is. I don't think I know any other articles on a character portrayed by a specific actor. With Suicide Squad being released, there seems to be a new actor trying to fill Ledger's shoes in his own way. There is a lot of news going around related to Jared Leto's Joker, ranging from development    to cut footage  to fellow actors' opinions of working with him.

There's just a lot of content. I was thinking that Jared Leto's Joker is an article that should be created as well. Either way, Leto's opinion on Heath Ledger's joker as described here may be of use for this article, if it's not in use already. ~ Mable ( chat ) 14:18, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you, Mable. I don't think it makes sense to have only one actor's portrayal of this character as a stand alone article. This shows a clear bias, and so if one actor's portrayal has an article dedicated to it, then so should others. The Joker article has Ledger's photo on the page, but if you try to include Jared Leto's, it will be taken down almost immediately. This is just nonsense. Leto is going to be the Joker in the DC Extended Universe, meaning he'll be in more movies as the Joker than Ledger. DrRC (talk)


 * It all depends on notability. I think Heath Ledger's Joker qualifies as notable considering his role has been covered by a variety of sources and has had a clear impact on modern cinema. I don't think Jared Leto's Joker qualifies (at least, not yet). We shouldn't create an article for every film version of the character that comes out. As a matter of fact, there are a number of version-specific articles for characters that I think probably shouldn't exist, such as James Gordon (Gotham), and Clark Kent (Smallville). I don't see what makes those notable enough to have an article and Batman (DC Extended Universe) was turned into a redirect for this very reason. DarkKnight2149 19:36, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Leto is expected to reprise his role as the Joker, making his take on the character very notable, especially since no one else has played the Joker in more than one movie. He would be the first recurring Joker we've ever seen in film. As for notability, we're not taking about some high school rendition where a no name actor is playing the Joker. Suicide Squad broke the box office record for an August release. The Ledger article on the Joker covers topics that can already by covered by Leto's portrayal of the character. There is plenty of cited sources about what he did off-set and on-set things he did to get into character and for the inspiration for the look and feel of Ayer's vision of the Joker. Any movies down the road where he plays the Joker again will only add to a comprehensive article about his portrayal of the character. This Ledger article reads like the person who wrote it thinks his portrayal of the character is the greatest thing in cinema.


 * Also, as TheOriginalSoni pointed out, this article should be renamed. The current naming format is only valid if the actor plays the Joker in one movie. Darkknight2149, Batman in the DC Extended Universe does warrant its own article, as well, especially since the character has been in two films already with the upcoming Justice League on the way. Also, those stand-alone Batman movies and any other Justice League movies will make Ben Affleck appear more than anyone else in film as the Dark Knight. DrRC (talk) 21:05, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying this should be a thing to just automatically do when a well-known actor fills a well-known role. I'm just saying that the sources are there to create a pretty cool article about Jared Leto's Joker. Really, that's what notability is about, after all. I don't think there's a bias going on at all; if anything, Heath Ledger's Joker actually received much more critical acclaim as far as I am aware. I completely understand why it is considered such an important topic. Leto's Joker also got plenty of coverage by sources, though. I just like seeing more articles on topics like these. As for whether an article like Clark Kent (Smallville) should be deleted, I don't know. It seems like that article relies strongly on primary sources, so that's not a good sign. ~ Mable ( chat ) 21:21, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I've never come across any sources on the new Batman as a character. I'm sure there are some out there, but I doubt he is in focus as much. Rather, I think the films he happens to be in are. I'd like to see some sources first, anyway :) ~ Mable ( chat ) 21:23, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I like the Clark Kent (Smallville) article. It is well written in real world information and has reliable sources. Not to mention it's a GA. Maybe  can weigh in his reasoning behind the article since I think he was involved with the improving of the article. Maybe other portrayals of the character do deserve notability but of course the burden of proof is on any editor who want to be bold whether it meets the criteria or not. Also the Gordon of Gotham article is not really proving notability and/or well written so it seems like a content fork to the main article of Gordon's character.  Jhenderson  7 7 7  22:26, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * First off, good luck trying to even suggest that Clark Kent (SMallville) get deleted. Relying on primary sources that discuss the creation of the character is not a valid reason to delete an article, and that article is basically able to go up for FA review if I wanted it to (maybe a few more historical sources that discuss the impact of the character given Man of Steel and now Supergirl). Now, enough defensiveness from me regarding an article I wrote. As for this article, first and foremost, the name isn't "The Joker". The use of "the" is meant to help with sentence syntax, and not part of the actual name. Like "the Batman". With regard to this page existing, it clearly has a lot of significant coverage. I imagine there is some for Leto's Joker. That said, what this page does, and what I would fear a Leto Joker page would do, is replicate most information from film pages. When you have to duplicate information from another page to justify the existence of a separate article, then you're not really justifying the existence. The difference for something on like Clark Kent, is that that was a character that existed for 10 years on television and there was a lot of information unique to the character and not necessarily relevant to any particular season. An issue with a page like this or Leto's Joker is that you're basing the importance not just off of film information that is already existing elsewhere, but a single film appearance. You don't even have the benefit of the character appearing in multiple films. You might actually be able to do a Joker in film page (similar to Superman in film or Batman in film) and cover all of the Joker appearances, separate from the comics, as opposed to trying to write an article on every separate incarnation given the limited nature of the film version's appearances (i.e., a different version each time, and only appearing once..so far for Leto's Joker).   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  22:39, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

While there's been a lot of coverage of DCEU's Joker, and I'm not really that opposed to the creation of an article on it, my biggest concern at the moment is the quality of that coverage. Leto's coverage mostly comes in the wake of the pre-release promotion for a film, rather than in contrast the critical attention The Dark Knight's Joker got, and I worry his notability might not be as long-lasting. Still, I'm not that concerned, and I might start work on an article when I have the chance. Of course, this version of the Joker is probably going to make some more appearances, though I try not to create articles based on "future" notability. The creation of a Joker in film article instead to include the content in could also work better, not sure.

I will say I think it's a mistake, though, to focus on these articles solely on the actor's performance. While these are key aspects and key to the independent notability of the adaptations of the original characters, I think it'd be a mistake, for instance, to ignore the reaction to the Leto Joker's costume, and we're losing something if we ignore analysis of Dark Knight's Joker as an agent of chaos in specifically the film's narrative. As an exception, if anybody shoots for a Mark Hamill as the Joker article, the attention there would probably be a lot more undividedly focused on the actor -- he's spanned multiple incarnations of the character, after all (though perhaps primarily the old DC Animated Universe's one).

On Batfleck, I do see a possibility of an article. I remember a pretty big reaction to his initial casting, his acting was one of the big highlights in BvS, etc. Though I haven't done much sourcehunting there, and I don't see it as an amazingly necessary article at this stage. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 22:47, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You need to be careful of placing undue weight on any single area of focus. An article does not need to be created simply because there was a reaction to casting, or simply because of the reaction to the portrayal itself. Again, when you're talking about a single film appearance, you're really talking about information tied directly to that one film. You end up scalping the film(s) of information just to justify the creation of an article because you can "create" significant coverage. If that coverage is really tied to a single entry, then I would argue it's not noteworthy enough to split from the main article. Remember, there is still WP:SIZE and WP:SUSTAINED and WP:PAGEDECIDE to play with here.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  22:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh no, of course, if sources on Jared Leto's Joker are already used plenty in the film's article without it resulting in undue weight there, then the situation is fine. Of course we can weight until more news comes out about Leto's next film before we think about making an article on his portrayal: these sources aren't going anywhere :) I just hope that pointing out that there are enough sources to meet GNG got since creative juices going :3 ~ Mable ( chat ) 09:11, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Use of THE
Someone made the comment that the word THE is not really part of the name of THE Joker -- that the name is JOKER and the THE portion is simply to help with sentence structure (?). I disagree most strongly. The use of THE is to denote primary status or prominence, to denote SUPER Villain status. There could be 1,000 clown-based criminals...but only one Joker. THE Joker. A super hero would not bother with ordinary crime -- ergo, the top superheroes only deal with the primary or apex super villains. THE Joker. The Penguin. The Riddler. The Catwoman. Indeed -- it is only when sentence structure says NOT to use it that we omit it -- (King Tut, not THE King Tut). This topic may be discussed on other talk pages -- but even if there is a resolution there, be assured there is not total agreement. Even in cases where the other characters omit the word THE -- in familiar English -- the sense of primacy is maintained. Joker's henchmen may say JOKER from time to time, but that is a du/Sie consideration. Consider:  Gordon:  That pasty-faced crown prince of chicanery is back. Batman (to Robin): THE JOKER! Not any old Joker -- THE Joker. Chesspride172.164.21.172 (talk) 01:52, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Deletion
First off, let me say that I don't raise this topic lightly. The Dark Knight is one of my favorite movies, and Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker is iconic. That said, I think it's time to start a discussion on whether this article should exist on Wikipedia. The topics covered seem duplicative of material that's already found in articles for The Dark Knight (film), Joker (character), and Heath Ledger. This is not a Batman Wiki, or Christopher Nolan Wiki, or even a Dark Knight Trilogy Wiki, all of which might appropriately have one article dedicated exclusively to this depiction of the Joker. But in terms of Notability and Undue Weight, I'm not sure this article deserves to stand on its own when its subject matter is already covered in other articles. There already exist articles about the character, the movie, and the actor. I don't think this is justified standing on its own, but I'm willing to start a discussion before slapping a Proposed deletion tag on it. TempDog123 (talk) 05:39, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * We've had discussions like this over the years and consensus is always in favor of keeping it. TDK's version of the Joker has been covered extensively by reliable sources and has had a big impact on modern cinema, so this article meets the general notability guideline. Also, very little of this article is duplicated from other articles. JOE BRO  64  10:09, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * TempDog123, I agree that this article should be deleted. When the issue of deleting it comes up, the Heath Ledger fan boys come together to defend the article. This is a major flaw of Wikipedia, in which a bias population typically participates in the consensus of matters such as these. Just because it's a lengthy, referenced article, does not justify its presence on Wikipedia. The idea of the character's "big impact on modern cinema" remains highly subjective and unconvincing. DrRC (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:34, 9 January, 2022