Talk:Jolly Roger/Archive 1

Caption
Does anyone have a reference for whether the Jolly Roger signifies a kill or a successful combat mission? Stephen B Streater 22:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

GA Failed
The Good article nomination for this page has failed. The article only cites sources for the "Use by submarines" and "Use by United States Navy aviators" sections; every section needs to be sourced. Additional items for improvement include: I hope this comments are helpful. Best of luck in your editing! -Alex S 23:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The defintion of the Jolly Roger: is it any pirate flag, or a specific set of pirate flags? Stating that "the Jolly Roger is the traditional flag of European and American pirates" and then providing a long list of variations is confusing and needs to be clarified.
 * Several references, including "Chetniks," "Sedlec Ossuary," and "Home Taping is Killing Music," seem as if they belong on the skull and crossbones page instead of this one.
 * There is no discussion about the use of the Jolly Roger by specific pirates in the main text of the article -- all of these details are crammed into the introduction. A complete article would contain a section that comprehensively discussed the Jolly Roger's use by pirates.
 * The introduction should provide an overview of the entire article, not details about one aspect.
 * More images of variations of the Jolly Roger might be of use.

I tried to make a beginning. Weird Bird 08:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"Pirates and the Lost Templar Fleet" by David Hatcher Childress states that the Jolly Roger, was a masonic symbol used by Knights Templar and symbolically refers to "Baphomet" the head and bones of someone famous to them (ie: Mary Magdelene's bones, John the Baptist's bones, or Jesus' bones. See "The Da Vinci Code.")


 * Given that the Templars were destroyed about 400 years before the Masons were founded, the idea that the the Templars used Masonic symbols of any kind is insupportable. The Da Vinci Code is a work of fiction, not a historical source.  Pirate Dan 14:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Current legal status
The clerks at the local marine store said that it is illegal to fly the jolly roger in American waters. Anybody know if that is true?

The clerk was wrong. You can fly it as long as the American one is above it. I've been to Key West, and I'm drawing this from observation.--Count Mall 14:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Dubious 'Other Use' Removed
I've removed the following from the 'other uses' section, as I can't find any other reference to it:


 * Jolly Roger Day occurs every December 21, and its origins are unknown. Festivities are likely to take place.

Rojomoke 13:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing references to "Old Roger"
It has come to my attention from the author of "Quelch's Gold" that the pirate flag klnown as "Old Roger" supposedly flown by John Quelch in 1704 is a myth. I have therefore removed it from the section on the name's origins. Pirate Dan 15:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Somewhat insulting to the reader
The first section says:

''Since the decline of piracy, various military units have used the Jolly Roger, usually in skull-and-crossbones design, as a unit identification insignia or a victory flag. Such use of the Jolly Roger is not intended to identify the users as piratical, but to ascribe to themselves the proverbial ferocity and toughness of pirates.''

I think spelling out to the reader that military units are not using the flag for 'piratical' reasons is not necessary. Instead how about crossing out this...?:

Since the decline of piracy, various military units have used the Jolly Roger, usually in skull-and-crossbones design, as a unit identification insignia or a victory flag, Such use of the Jolly Roger is not intended to identify the users as piratical, but to ascribe to themselves the proverbial ferocity and toughness of pirates.

Leaving us with:

Since the decline of piracy, various military units have used the Jolly Roger, usually in skull-and-crossbones design, as a unit identification insignia or a victory flag, to ascribe to themselves the proverbial ferocity and toughness of pirates.

Just a thought, Ajani57 04:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I wrote it that way, and I'm OK with changing it as you suggest. Editing. Pirate Dan 18:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, it's already been done. Pirate Dan 18:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Verification
Anything that is not supported by citations of verifiable reliable sources should be removed see WP:PROVEIT. There is so little cited in some sections that I have added the template unreferencedsection dated to November 2007. Any information in any of the sections so marked, should be deleted unless citations from verifiable reliable sources are added. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed sections with template that indicates no citations which have been in place for a month or more. See Wikipedia policy WP:PROVEIT for why I deleted those sections. It is my intention in the next few days/weeks to delete most of the rest of the text that does not carry citations. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As there were still no citation provided for the sections with the template "This section needs additional citations for verification." I have removed most of the text in those sections that was not cited. Please do not replace the text unless it is accompanied by verifiable reliable sources. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed "Media" section
Badly spelled, and I'm not sure about notability either. If someone wants to add that information back in (with citations) I suggest they include a list of other film, television, game, etc. references - an entire section for one character from one online game seems inappropriate. (Also, wasn't Jolly Roger a character from one of the movies as well? --Dbutler1986 (talk) 18:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Theories
..just another theory states that the flag was derived from the old austrian flag (white eagle on black ground, which may be mistaken from the far for the Jolly Roger)because Austria at that time issued quite a number of letters of marque. It is at least as sounding as the other proposed theories.


 * Not sure about that. The Austrian eagle has been black for quite some time.  When was it white?  Also, most of the pirates known to have flown Jolly Rogers weren't privateers for the Austrians.  Pirate Dan (talk) 21:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The theories seem to be discussing where the term for the flag ("Jolly Roger") came from, not where the design on the flag came from. 69.139.96.74 13:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What is with this article? It goes on forever naming possible etymologies, and never gives the final word. It says such and such is true "according to the history channel." Such and such is true "according to National Geographic." Either do your homework, or please don't tell that you learned things from the history channel. That'd be like sleeping with a girl and saying with a straight face "yeah that position, I learned that from watching hours pornography." Take a word of advice and shhh. Finally what does that mean to fire a missile "in anger?" 02:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)02:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)02:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)~

The following paragraph was removed from "Origins" for failing to provide a verifiable source after a year: "Not everyone agrees on this. Some historians think the term Jolly Roger is more likely a reference to the English use of 'Roger' as a term for fornication. Stud bulls in England were commonly named Roger. This implied that if the victim did not surrender, they would be 'Rogered'."

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Richard Hawkins Quote
The Richard Hawkins quote about black and red flags appears in several books I can find but none that looks like a respectable academic work of history. It's possible that this quote has been repeated verbatim but was originally made up or misremembered. Without a primary source, it may be best to delete this quote or list it as of uncertain origin. This is a shame because it's a nice quote. It would be best if somebody could verify it with a trustworthy source.SmartPatrol (talk) 14:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Found a citation in Cordingly, who I think is respectable enough, although he does not do his best job of documentation for this quote. Pirate Dan (talk) 01:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Use in World War I aviation
World War I usage is different from "Four squadrons of the 90th Bombardment Group of the Fifth Air Force under General George C. Kenney, commanded by Colonel Art Rogers were known as the Jolly Rogers. " as the section has no citation given of any sort, there there is no cited evidence that the use of a scull and crossbones motif was a Jolly Rodger and not some other use of similar military emblems. So I have removed the section. --PBS (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Origins of the design
I have moved this recent edition to the article to here:

because it does not carry any citations (see WP:PROVEIT)--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

In the section "Origins of the Design" is the phrase "[...] the Red Jack was lowered and a black flag raised in its place to indicate that no quarter would be given." Since this sentence was not cited, and because I have actually read the opposite of the order in which these flags are raised from at least two different sources, I have deleted this sentence and cited David Cordingly's book Under the Black Flag (which I had on hand) which clarifies the issue. I have never read that yellow flags were used by pirates, though this certainly may be true (some pirates used green ribbon, though I don't find this entirely related to the Jolly Roger topic). Until there is documentation saying otherwise, I am removing it. I re-wrote the beginning of this section. My worry is that I didn't flow into the second half of the section well enough. Keraunoscopia (talk) 22:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

"All are in agreement"
If this line can't be removed, can it be explained?

It's not at all clear what it even means. The plain reading of the line seems to indicate that all extant sources are in total agreement that every detail, save one, of the flags pictured below is historically accurate.

That seems insane and very difficult to reference. Does it mean only that the references cited agree with the images included in the article? That should go with out saying.

Either way what are "All" sources in agreement with? Each other? Or the images as shown?

Or does it mean something else, that I've completely missed? APL (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the reference is to "multiple" extant sources, not "all." Even I have not read all the extant sources. :-)


 * What I was trying to say was that all of the multiple extant secondary sources cited in the gallery - i.e. Botting, Sherry, and both of Konstam's books - represent the flags the same way, except for Every's. All four are in agreement with the images shown AND each other.  And there are no published secondary sources (counting Johnson as primary) out there that I've been able to find showing any different version of any of those flags. Pirate Dan (talk) 13:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, makes more sense to me now. APL (talk) 02:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The Jolly Roger
Ok, this has to be one of the vaguest and worst articles I've read in the wiki project. Namely because it dilly dallies about without hitting on accurate points insofar as the history aspect.

The Jolly Roger as the joli rouge is accepted as a fact pretty much these days, the question lies in the fact that two flags were used, one as a heal-to, one as a battle flag. If the Skull and Crossbones didn't stop the opponent, the Jolly Roger was raised. Just because popular disney mentality has brought us into thinking the two flags are one in the same doesn't make it fact.

The Skull and Crossbones flag related article has nothing to do with the flag and is to do with the poison logo, which is another disheartening article altogether. Has anyone suggested a peer review on these two articles?

The S&C was the naval battle flag of the Knights Templars, it re-emerged when quite a few popular admirals cum pirates / privateers utilised one of the symbols of freemasonry, which many were alledged to be a part of, as their battle flag. There's too much ambiguity in this article about that.

Jachin 1 July 2005 08:59 (UTC)

There seems to be some contradiction in this article. We are told that privateers or pirates may have flown a red jack to indicate that none would spared but also:

"Typically, if a ship then decided to resist, the Jolly Roger was taken down and a red flag was then flown, indicating that the pirates intend to take the ship by force and without mercy...[i]t was hoped by many crews that this course of action would help spread the word that resistance was a poor idea for ships."

Who would escape to spread the word if the crew received no mercy?

12 February 2007


 * I am no expert on this whatsoever, but I got interested in this article after I visited a museum on maritime history. The exhibition stated that the term "Jolly Roger" comes from the French term "Joli Rouge", a plain red flag. The red flag signals that the attacking pirates will show no mercy. That seems a little at odds with the contents of this article. Relrel 10:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * When I was in school, history, as taught in social studies, footnoted a rather old British text that one of the early pirates to have flown the skull and bones version of the flag was a privateer/pirate called Roger (or Rodger) Williams who after taking the wrong ship for a nation he was privateering for, was captured and then drawn and quartered on the docks to forwarn sailors that if you pirate or privateer this is what we will do to you. They then carted him off draped in his flag.  After that other pirates started to call it what he and his crew told their victims, The Jolly Roger as "Old Roger" was happy when he flew it.

I have looked recently for info on this but cannot find any. Is this another case of a school text not doing due dilligence and not propperly vetting their sources?--WolvenSpectre (talk) 16:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone considered adding the other name for a Jolly Roger Happy Morgan (Bloodraven01 (talk) 23:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC))

I think the article could use pictures of the 'alternative' Jolly Rogers Borisblue 06:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds like you know the subject - be bold. -- Solipsist 1 July 2005 10:04 (UTC)

Testing Watchlist PPGMD 1 July 2005 17:47 (UTC)

"...became the first Royal Navy submarine to fire a cruise missile in anger" - what does "in anger" refers to? Nikola 22:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * IE. Deliberately attempting to cause harm to some opposition. As opposed to test-runs, training, salutes, etc. 68.39.174.238 13:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

"Jolly Roger" comes from the Arabic "Ali Raja" literally "King of the Sea". This has been documented for centuries that the English term is a corruption of the term used for pirates in the southern Mediterranean. It's considered by many pirate historians to be the most plausible of all explanations and it's not even mentioned here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.151.21 (talk) 18:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Ali Raja" theory is mentioned, under Origins of the Term: "Another theory states that "Jolly Roger" is an English corruption of "Ali Raja", the name of a Tamil pirate." Contrary to the statement above, it is one of the most speculative and least supported theories for the term's origin.  Those pirate historians who even offer it generally list it as a less likely explanation.


 * Also, "Ali Raja" is not Arabic for "King of the Sea." Raja isn't even an Arabic word: it's a Hindi/Urdu word meaning king.  The real Arabic word for "sea" is "bahr," not "raja."  "Ali" is the Arabic word for king, so Ali Raja would mean "king king," in two languages.


 * No primary source evidence has yet been produced to show that any one named "Ali Raja" ever was a pirate leader. Arakkal Ali Raja ruled Kannur in the 1660s, but he's not known as a pirate.  Pirate Dan (talk) 20:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Use by Royal Navy Submarine Service section
Regarding section 5: 'Use by Royal Navy Submarine Service' as stated it is the practice of RN submarines to fly the Jolly Roger when returning from a sucessful combat mission and I know that this is also the practice in the RAN, however I'm not sure if this is the practice in other navys founded on the RN model. If someone could confirm this the I could update the section --Searle, L. (talk) 06:10, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * From what I know, it was started by the RN in WWI, but has been adopted by other navies, including the USN and the RAN. -- saberwyn 02:57, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Some examples are now cited in the article. Because its not exclusively the domain of the RN submarine service, I've changed the heading to the more generic "Use by submarines".
 * I'm under the impression that US submarines (and possibly all USN vessels) fly the Jolly Roger on occasion, but this is during line-crossing ceremonies, and not to celebrate a successful deployment. If this can be reliably sourced, it should be added. -- saberwyn 10:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

In Fiction
Just wanted to step by, the article claims that the logo of the SRU in the canadian tv show Flashpoint used the Henry Every's version of the skull & bones. Is there any reference for that? Because I have a perfect screen capture of the show and it doesn't look like a skull at all, no way how I look at it. --Janus0104 (talk) 05:48, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I added that section, I read your commment on IMDb, and I'll have to say it looks like no fish to me. I'd be pretty shocked, if the patch was a fish thing! Keep It Clean!  Respect Public Property! -Superintendent, Halo 3:ODST Chairsenses(Talk) 19:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That could be construed as original research. I would find a source for that information; in other words, someone else should have noted the resemblance to a skull & crossbones. If not, it should be removed. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  19:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Can perhaps an image be made and added of the "indian" jolly roger of The Darjeeling Limited; see http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/files/2007/09/darjeel.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/2007/09/23-week/&usg=__9coB1MfNMcYVWoBhxhHPQkfFe5E=&h=450&w=450&sz=186&hl=nl&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=55VZ4R3dKPCKWM:&tbnh=142&tbnw=161&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djolly%2Broger%2Band%2Bthe%2Bdarjeeling%2Blimited%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26biw%3D980%26bih%3D590%26tbs%3Disch:10,300&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=544&vpy=87&dur=1082&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=113&ty=167&ei=Fld7TI2rMouOjAey0PGnBg&oei=-FZ7TPf8EMeOswav7LSzDQ&esq=11&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0&biw=980&bih=590

Remove Templar section?
We have had the David Hatcher Childress theory that the Jolly Roger is a Templar symbol in the article for some time. However, Childress' Pirates and the Lost Templar Fleet is published by Adventures Unlimited Press - which Childress owns himself, according to this article:. Therefore, I believe it is "self-published" by Wikipedia standards, and should be booted out.

The theory is dubious on so many levels anyway: there is no evidence of Templar survival after Philip IV destroyed it, no evidence of the use of the phrase "Jolly Roger" until 1721, and then it was used by predominantly Protestant Anglophone pirates who had no reason to adopt the symbols of a Catholic holy order. Bartholomew Roberts' crew, for example, was so violently anti-Catholic that they refused to consider a "Papist" for their leader. Pirate Dan (talk) 16:31, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The wording makes it clear that it is a point of view of the author. It is often better in cases like this to keep minority/fringe views in the article, but add to it a comment with a quality reference stating that it is dubious. First that covers NPOV and second deleting claims like his tends to create a hydra where editors come along and re-add the information, but in the passive narrative voice of the article, it gets deleted and reverted, and long discussions take place on the talk page.... --PBS (talk) 18:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Pirate Dan that the Templar section should either be removed or reduced to a 1 paragraph 'crack pot' theory. It is a longish, factually stated introductory section, with no evidence to back it up. Wikipedia already has the reputation as being the ministry of disinformation - so lets try and change that... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.9.195 (talk) 15:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Design
Changed the caption of the Stede Bonnet image from "engraving" to "woodcut." The ink visible in the negative (white)spaces is characteristic of a relief print rather than intaglio.  and  While the misidentification originates at the source for the image, , (" Medium: 1 print : engraving"), "woodcut" is more accurate. Maybe the easiest course would be to use "illustration"? Vex Delay (talk) 16:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Governor General Sir Robert Shore Milnes
The Mystery of Canada the War of 1812 and the Jolly Roger Flag explained on behalf of Sir Robert Shore Miles the Governor General of Canada who we (Canadians) credit with forming the Jolly Roger.

This is a theory that Canada has evolved with from repetitive rumors handed down from generation to generation about Canada and the Jolly Roger Flag that surpassed the War of 1812 and beyond not found on the Internet, Wikipedia or elsewhere.

The War of 1812 was fought between Canada and the U.S. along with the British whereas Canada was flying the Jolly Roger and Britain the Union Jack and U.S. the old Navy Jack. The White House burned and the U.S. requested the Jolly Roger flag of the newly formed country to the north to be brought to The White House and paid $2,800 for the Jolly Roger flag that was flown on Parliament of Canada now housed in U.S. Archives.

The Jolly Roger flag is the first flag of Canada ordered by Governor General Sir Robert Shore Milnes that flew for two and a half decades from 1801. Many of the Jolly Roger flags varied in design along with Winnipeg who flew the flag with two black eyes painted on it and Manitoba that flew its flag without teeth unlike British Columbia who was the first to fly with teeth and Vancouver that was made up of many Skull and Crossbones but the most distinguished was the flag on Parliament that flew the flag with its eye filled in.

68.7.175.4 (talk) 21:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

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Jolly Rogers Gallery
I have moved the gallery from the article page to here because not one of the flag descriptions carries a citation from a reliable source. The flags need to have that because otherwise anyone can make up any flag and claim it is so & so's flag. --PBS (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I have restored the gallery and added three print sources, one of which is contemporary.


 * Please supply an individual citation (with specific page numbers) for each flag (see WP:PROVEIT) --PBS (talk) 09:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Take this source as given:


 * Who says that a red skeleton is the "the figure of death in red"? Unless another source is given then we can not know if this pictorial representation is anything like that described. It is more accurate just to put the textual description into the article unless the pictorial representation can be sourced to an artist, pamphlet, book etc. --PBS (talk) 10:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Please note that the pages I have cited in Botting and Konstam show illustrations, not only descriptions, of each Jolly Roger.  The Jolly Rogers shown in the gallery are accurate reproductions of those illustrations, including the Edward Low flag.


 * Personally, I am far from sure that some of these flags are actually historical; all my efforts to trace the Rackham, Bonnet, Tew, Condent, or Every flags back to primary sources have failed. The Blackbeard flag appears in primary sources, but attributed to other pirates than Blackbeard!  When Ed Foxe's book on pirate flags comes out, I anticipate that the authenticity of some of these flags will be refuted.  However, at the moment, that would be original research.  According to the present state of the secondary literature, these flags are accepted. Pirate Dan (talk) 14:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * According to E.T. Fox's book Jolly Rogers, the True History of Pirate Flags, most of the flags in the gallery are completely made up or attributed to wrong pirates.--Max Tomos (talk) 17:09, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

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Seems improbable
That the flag would be raised as a prelude to an attack. That seems like a waste of (limited) manpower that could be used to do something more productive than hoisting what amounts to a decoration. 108.200.234.93 (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2019 (UTC)


 * See Jolly Roger for why pirates found the flag useful. A. Parrot (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

No word on surviving authentic flags?
There are supposedly two or three surviving authentic flags in museums, shouldn't they be covered here? FunkMonk (talk) 09:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Red color?
I seem to remember hearing that the black flag meant that the pirates would only steal from ships, and not kill any of the passengers unless they attacked them first, but the red flag meant that the pirates would kill without mercy. MightyArms (talk) 22:33, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * This is mentioned in the Jolly_Roger section of the article.
 * Looks like this color-coding is only mentioned in a single contemporary source. So it was probably not widely known or used.  (If it was ever real at all.) ApLundell (talk) 03:57, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Jolly Roger
Suggest you add the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to the article about the Jolly Roger’s current use. 184.90.133.143 (talk) 03:04, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Åland piratflagga.jpg
 * This appears to have been an error and the tag has already been removed. A user tagged a few images who's source clearly indicated their CC-by license.
 * Besides, this particular image is basically just a copy of a pirate flag whose copyright has long expired. ApLundell (talk) 00:45, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

black beard
The article on black beard says that this flag is erroneous. They conflict.