Talk:Jon Gruden

Coaching Tree
It lists Jim Harbaugh under Gruden's coaching tree, but I can't tell when Harbaugh would have been an assistant under Gruden. It lists Harbaugh as a Raiders assistant in 2002, but Gruden had left already. Is there a source to back this up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.26.98.211 (talk) 00:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed this to, Harbaugh never served under Gruden, he was the QB coach for Bill Callahan after Gruden was traded to Tampa Bay. I'm not waiting for a citation that doesn't exist, I'm deleting the line from the article. -Ian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.202.184.14 (talk) 13:10, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Untitled
I'd like to see something about how he is known for having a complex play calling system. It was funny to see video clips of Chris Simms struggling to say "Flex right Y short 72 X bingo Z corner on 1", and that's an easy one for Gruden's system. Andrew zot 12:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Non-neutral Article
"In the two years following Gruden's Super Bowl win, the Bucs went 7–9 and 5–11 respectively, implying to many Dungy supporters that Gruden had simply taken over a strong team and then driven it into the ground. However, the high draft picks sacrificed by the team to acquire Gruden, along with salary-cap issues and failed draft choices forced upon him by the now-departed Rich McKay (with whom Gruden had an bitter relationship) limited Gruden's ability to field the teams he wanted after that successful Super Bowl-winning season. With no emerging talent in the fold and no money to afford replacements, the team was decimated by injuries to many of the Super Bowl stars, including Joe Jurevicius, Mike Alstott, Greg Spires, Shelton Quarles, Ken Dilger and Brian Kelly, as well as acrimony with highly-paid veterans such as Sapp, Keyshawn Johnson and Keenan McCardell.

When former Raiders general manager Bruce Allen joined the Bucs in 2004, Gruden finally had the general manager–head coach partnership he desired, and their 2004 and 2005 drafts yielded a number of impact players, including 2005 Offensive NFL Rookie of the Year Award winner Carnell "Cadillac" Williams."

This is just an example. The article reads more like a profile in People Magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slatkin (talk • contribs) 03:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

"Chuckie"
How can an article about Jon Gruden not have a single reference to the nickname "Chuckie"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.51.147.190 (talk) 23:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Second the motion. It is core to his public persona. Glennglazer (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

POV in lead
The lead section really needs to be free of editorial comments. By saying he won the Super Bowl with Tony Dungy's roster you are implying he is not a very good coach. Those types of statements are fine in the main text when properly sourced, but please keep them out of the lead. It would be akin to putting in the lead of the Peyton Manning article that he won a Super Bowl, but only against a weak Chicago Bears team. Also, when undoing changes, please be sure there are not undisputed changes that are being reverted at the same time, like punctuation fixes. If so, please undo the contentious changes manually. –CWenger (talk) 19:31, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That is not my intent at all. George Siefert was an excellent coach, in my opinion, but it merits noting that his first SB victory was with a team that he inherited, as opposed to built himself.  Isn't this a significant fact? 98.71.252.133 (talk) 20:05, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I completely agree that it merits noting, I am just opposed to it being stated in the lead of the article. It is hinting that his SB victory doesn't really count. As another analogy, it would be like putting in the lead of the Ben Roethlisberger article that he won two Super Bowls, but largely due to the Steelers defense. –CWenger (talk) 21:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Aren't these all just inferences that a reader himself can and should make for himself? The facts are laid out: he won a SB in his first year with a team. Any inference from that is on the reader... so it shouldn't be said. I mean... this is supposed to be an encyclopedic article about facts, not inferences or opinions, right? Jatkins679 (talk) 00:41, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, do you support keeping or removing the phrase "with a roster built by fired coach Tony Dungy" in the lead? Of course we should just present the facts, but the question becomes what facts should we present, in which section of the article, and in what context. –CWenger (talk) 18:12, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think that phrase should be left in the lead. There is an obvious insinuation there that isn't appropriate. Jatkins679 (talk) 20:32, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Photo
The photo of Gruden is a photoshop job. He never coached at Arkansas and it is a little misleading. Also the photo is pretty clearly photoshopped and it just looks unprofessional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.188.249 (talk) 03:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Do You Love Football?!
Gruden co-wrote a book with Vic Carucci titled Do You Love Football?!: winning with heart, passion, and not much sleep It was first published by HarperCollins in 2003, ISBN 978-0-06-057944-9, 246 pages. There's a 2004 reprint by Perennial (ISBN 978-0-06-057945-6, 246 pages).

Unfortunately, I don't see a good place to insert this in the article. It would have been during his time at Tampa Bay but as it's not a Tampa Bay story I suspect it should be in a different section. I learned about the book from http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2636358-inside-jon-grudens-maniacal-obsession-with-football which could be used to populate a personal life section as it mentions his family background, his wife, and children. It also mentions the Fired Football Coaches Association which likely could get its own article. I don't have the time to put together a new section though and so am posting here that the data is available from at least one WP:RS. --Marc Kupper&#124;talk 09:04, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Personal life
Here is a good link for that:.

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2021
Jon Gruden out as Las Vegas Raiders coach. Various sources on Twitter confirm. Velcroman98 01:24, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Wait till the Raiders announce it then we can edit it. Swagging (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

The Raiders announced it https://twitter.com/Raiders/status/1447744629168693250 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boethius696969 (talk • contribs) 02:09, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done  General Ization Talk  02:12, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2021 (2)
Jon Gruden was an NFL head coach… 2600:1008:B052:5838:3DC3:A5F0:6CE0:5D4C (talk) 02:50, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  General Ization Talk  02:51, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That edit will not be done. Saying he "was an American football coach" means he's dead (see any dead former coach Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, Vince Lombardi) unemployed coaches that have not officially retired should just simply state "____ is an American football coach."

Content about emails
Why is this now in the "personal life" section? It was in the scope of his career, it was discovered by an investigation made by the organization he worked within, and the consequences are job-related. Schazjmd  (talk)  14:41, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2021 (3)
The introductory paragraph contains the word “than” where it should say “then.” 2600:387:C:6E11:0:0:0:6 (talk) 17:03, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:07, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Expanding the lede
I do not understand why you are opposed to expanding the lede. The current lede has a number of problems:

1. Gruden is not notable for simply being an American football coach. A high school football coach would qualify as "an American football coach", but wouldn't be notable enough to receive a Wikipedia article. Gruden is notable for being a head coach in the National Football League, the highest level of American football.

2. "Oakland Raiders" should hyperlink to History of the Oakland Raiders, not Las Vegas Raiders. That was the period when he first coached the team. The hyperlink to Las Vegas Raiders should be Raiders (franchise), allowing linkage to both articles.

3. No mention of what he accomplished with the Raiders, chiefly winning two division titles and appearing in a conference championship.

4. "He was then traded from Oakland to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers from 2002 to 2008" - This makes it sound like Gruden was traded during a six year period, which doesn't make sense and obviously isn't true.

5. No mention of him being the youngest head coach to win the Super Bowl at the time.

6. No mention of him holding the Buccaneers' franchise record for wins.

7. No mention of why he was fired from the Buccaneers, namely the fact that he made the playoffs only two more times after winning the Super Bowl.

8. No mention of when he served as an analyst (2009 to 2017).

9. ESPN broadcasts Monday Night Football. Saying he became an analyst for "ESPN and Monday Night Football" makes them sound like separate entities.

10. Using the exact date of when the emails were revealed is completely unnecessary. We should be providing an overview, not specifics, and the overview is this happened during the 2021 NFL season.

11. No mention of when the emails were made (2011 to 2018), which helps indicate a timeline to readers.

12. No mention of the fact that he was an inductee of the Buccaneers' Ring of Honor and subsequently removed due to the emails.

13. MOS:SEAOFBLUE caused by unnecessary hyperlinks to the seasons he coached.

Your removal of these fixes is based on two unrelated topics - "how long he coached doesn't need to mentioned in lede, and there should be at least a brief mention of his career as an assistant". To the former, it does need to be mentioned to give a complete overview of how long his coaching career spanned. To the latter, mentioning his assistant career is not necessary, especially when we're not mentioning any actual assistant positions. The article says very little about his time as an assistant coach; the bulk of it is dedicated to his 15 seasons as a head coach. And while you may disagree on these issues, that does not justify restoring an entire lede back to a version with serious issues. Bluerules (talk) 19:11, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * All those are good points. I have reverted.-- Rockchalk 717 21:29, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Controversial Email Remarks in First Section
Wikipedia's policy very clearly states that "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libelous." The sentence in the first section saying "He led the team until his resignation during the 2021 season after it was publicly revealed that he wrote what some would consider to be racist, misogynistic, and homophobic emails between 2011 and 2018." violates this policy. Jon Gruden is suing the NFL right now over these claims. Rstrug (talk) 15:22, 2 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Your removal has been reverted. The lead of an article summarizes the content found in the body, and as such it is generally not necessary to have citations in the lead. The citations for the material in question can be found below, in Jon_Gruden. Also, see WP:CRYBLP, the mere act of claiming something is contentious doesn't automatically make it so. The text reads "...revealed that he wrote what many would consider to be racist, misogynistic, and homophobic emails...". It does not state in Wikipedia Voice that they ARE "racist, misogynistic, and homophobic". It is a clear-cut fact that Gruden was fired because of the emails, and because those in authority in the NFL hold the OPINION that the emails were "racist, misogynistic, and homophobic". That is all we're saying here. Zaathras (talk) 22:12, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Is there a reason the section regarding being fired by raiders is below his picture
The way it's currently formatted, the first paragraph ends and it looks like that is how his career ended. I'm not sure why his stint at the Raiders is below his picture/stats. 73.109.231.113 (talk) 08:02, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

"Coach Gruden" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coach_Gruden&redirect=no Coach Gruden] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:46, 8 August 2023 (UTC)