Talk:Jonas Valančiūnas

"FIBA Under-19 World Championship 2011"

 * "FIBA Under-19 World Championship 2011" may be giving too much information - his scoring this many points, grabbing this many rebounds for EACH game, etc. How about only writing his average statistics for the tournament and leaving it up to the reader to visit the FIBA page and look up game-by-game statistics? 108.82.99.158 (talk) 20:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Pofka: It would be hard for reader to understand which games it is. Also 10+ references near one word would look awful and incomprehensible. Abridged Jonas Valančiūnas statistics is better than a wall with numbers with 24 players names. It saves user time. I don't see problem here. :) When the championship will be done, I will add averaged tournament statistics for him to the last line.


 * Here's what I'd suggest: when the championship is finished, then you just write the statistics and erase all the game-by-game statistics. As I said, FIBA page is for those game-by-game statistics. You don't see Michael Jordan having game-by-game statistics, do ya? I say just write the averages and don't get too specific. 108.82.99.158 (talk) 18:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Height and Weight Listing
There is a user who is continually reverting the height and weight listings for jonas. It is Wikipedia practice to list a player's height and weight by their official NBA profile. Hence the Info Box describes "Listed height and weight", as in their NBA listing and not by draft measurements or other listings and the like. Duhon (talk) 09:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

So you're saying that the source here http://blog.raptors.com/press-releases/raptors-announce-training-camp-roster/ which is an OFFICIAL press release by the Toronto Raptors organization, is like a draft measurement? You will note that at the top of the page there is the NBA logo and clicking it will direct you to NBA.com. This source is as official as the "official" NBA profiles. You are obviously deluded if you think all NBA players on Wikipedia are listed by their NBA profile heights and weights. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/enes_kanter/ 267lbs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enes_Kanter 248 lbs.RoTi37 (talk) 20:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That is one document you keep bringing up this is the official Raptors 2012-2013 roster listing http://www.nba.com/raptors/roster/2012. Listing all raptors players by height and weight. A press release in not an official listing. Did you ignore my previous post? the info box describes listed players heights and weights that is what jonas is listed by the NBA and the Raptors. You have already been reverted by previous members for this. Please cease this or it will be considered vandalism. Duhon (talk) 21:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

"It is Wikipedia practice to list a player's height and weight by their official NBA profile." "http://www.nba.com/playerfile/enes_kanter/ 267lbs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enes_Kanter 248 lbs." You brought up the assertion that all NBA players are listed by their "official' NBA heights and weights, but you continue to ignore Enes Kanter's case. This matter has already been discussed with Zagalejo; you're late to the party. Cease your ignorance and vandalism.RoTi37 (talk) 23:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you know what practice even means? In the vast majority of wiki pages on NBA players they are listed by their NBA profile listings that is a fact. That is done to avoid confusion and have a unified standard of listings. Why do you continue to ignore every piece of evidence brought forth in exchange for that one document you have? This is his NBA player profile http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jonas_valanciunas/ this is the Raptors 2012-2013 roster http://www.nba.com/raptors/roster/2012, his listings on espn.com http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6477/jonas-valanciunas. Your reverts have already crossed over into 3RR territory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring#The_three-revert_rule. I am planning to bring forth a 3rd party mediation to give a ruling on this. Duhon (talk) 23:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you even know what ignorance means? I have crossed over into 3RR territory? So have you fool. His listings on CBC http://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/player/599780/. His listings on rotoworld http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1832/jonas-valanciunas. His listing on Yahoo http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4886. His listing on Sports Illustrated http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/4886/index.html. His listing on AOL SportingNews http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/player/4886/jonas-valanciunas. His listing on NBC http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/nba/playerstats.asp?id=4886. Your argument that every NBA player on Wikipedia is listed by their "official" NBA profile is gone. Your argument that I only have 1 source is gone. Go ahead and bring forth a 3rd party.RoTi37 (talk) 23:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you not understand the listing that matters the most is his official listing by the league and team he plays for? Can you for once answer my question about you not understanding this page is for listing his listed height and weight can you not read the info box? As in what his team and sports organization list him as? Can you please answer me that? Duhon (talk) 00:01, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

My answer to your poorly worded question of "Can you for once answer my question about you not understanding this page is for listing his listed height and weight can you not read the info box?" is: can you for once answer my question about you not understanding that there is already a player on wikipedia whose height and weight do not match his "official" NBA profile, and can you not note that his "team roster" and "sports organization profile" are one and the same (i.e. the Toronto Raptors "official" team roster page is on http://www.nba.com/raptors/roster/2012, and therefore you cannot say that both his "team and sports organization list him" the same)? The only piece of information that actually came from the Raptors Organization itself, and not copied from the NBA.com site, is the press release http://blog.raptors.com/press-releases/raptors-announce-training-camp-roster/. You continue to ignore the fact that Enes Kanter's Wikipedia height and weight do not match his "official" NBA profile, and you continue to ignore the fact that I presented seven sources that list Valanciunas at 7'0" 257lbs to your "two" sources which are really one and the same. Stop being childish and bring forth the 3rd party you promised.RoTi37 (talk) 00:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You still have not answered my question, as to your's what significance does one wikipedia page have to the other dozens of nba players who do have their height and weight correlated to their official NBA and team profiles. That page is the odd man out and in fact should be corrected as well. The reason the majority of pages use the official NBA height listings is just that, they are the official listings. It helps save confusion where there are numerous different listing out there on the internet. It only makes sense to base it on the official listings as is that is what they are listed as. You cannot argue that Jonas is not listed as 6'11", 231 lbs by the NBA and the team he plays for in that league. To take it from any other source makes no sense. I agree we should hold off on any more edits until we can get some other voices in hear. I have put this debate up for 3rd party review we need to now wait on that opinion when it arives. Duhon (talk) 00:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Why do you still assert that both Valanciunas' team and the NBA list him as 6'11" 231lbs; read my last post and you'll see that both the Team Roster and his "official" NBA profile come from NBA.com (the URL even begins as NBA.com). Thus, only the NBA should be given credit for the listing on the team roster, but the team roster presented by the Raptors organization in the press release should be the only source attributed directly to Valanciunas' team. I am still sensing that you are trying to downplay the Enes Kanter listings discrepancy by saying that it is "the odd man out and in fact should be corrected as well", in order to deny the fact that there is an overwhelming number of substantial sources that state Valanciunas' height and weight as 7'0" 257 lbs, and the fact that Valanciunas' and Kanter's wikipedia pages should be the two odd men out that have citations that are neither shady nor sketchy, unlike the NBA's profiles.RoTi37 (talk) 00:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I propose that the new policy for NBA players' heights and weights should be that they should be initially listed by their NBA profiles, but only until a credible source such as a press release from the team, game notes, or a video interview from the player himself is presented with updated information stating otherwise, so this stupidity based on the NBA's nonchalance and laziness can cease.RoTi37 (talk) 00:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


 * For the last time the raptors official roster lists Jonas at 6'11", 231lbs you can physically purchase an official game day book at the rogers centre and it will say that height. Something you do not realize is that the NBA base their listings on what info the teams give them. They do not just randomly make up heights. The Raptors you can see from their own site in the official roster section lists jonas as that. It is in fact the NBA that bases its height listing from that not the other way around. That press release did not translate to an official listing for the raptors. Again there are often numerous different height listings for players to avoid confusion and dispute using the official team listing makes the most sense and is what is mostly done Duhon (talk) 00:59, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Again you pretend to know it all. "For the last time the raptors official roster lists Jonas at 6'11", 231lbs you can physically purchase an official game day book at the rogers centre and it will say that height." Sounds like you're speculating; first of all, the Raptors haven't been tenants of the Rogers Centre since 1999, they play at the Air Canada Centre, and secondly you've never purchased an "official game day book", at the Rogers Centre or otherwise, because you would have said "...it does say that height". Your Freudian slip exposes your ignorance and sense of grandeur even more. Are you blind or can you not see that the "Raptors' own site" is merely a section of the NBA's main site; hence the URL of NBA.COM/raptors. Can you find me an official source that evidences your claim that "It is in fact the NBA that bases its height listing from that not the other way around." If the NBA really does take the listings from the teams, then why didn't the press release "translate to an official listing for the raptors"? Logically, using the NBA listings makes the least sense.RoTi37 (talk) 01:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I would appreciate it if you would leave personal insults and judgement out of this. This is not a forum to level insults we are discussing the article. Yes I indeed meant the ACC and that does not change my point. Again  the NBA and The Raptors operate as one entity they are not in competition with each other. As I mentioned information is shared between them both, the teams give the NBA the height of their players and they are listed as such. The Raptors website being affiliated with the NBA site has nothing that affect its credibility. The raptors online roster listing is as official as it gets. As for the press release a press release is just that, something released to the press. It has nothing to do with their own internal player listings. That was a one time released document if it was an official listing the heights on the raptors roster would be updated to reflect them but they were not. Again do you see why the majority of wiki pages are listed by the NBA profiles to avoid disputes just like this? Duhon (talk) 01:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

"Again do you see why the majority of wiki pages are listed by the NBA profiles to avoid disputes just like this?" The irony is, the only reason this dispute exists is because there are multiple sources that contradict the NBA profile. Did you not read my suggestion that "the new policy for NBA players' heights and weights should be that they should be initially listed by their NBA profiles, but only until a credible source such as a press release from the team, game notes, or a video interview from the player himself is presented with updated information stating otherwise". Continuing to list players according to their "official" NBA profiles in the face of multiple credible sources is the definition of ignorance. I thought one of Wikipedia's missions was to enlighten people and end ignorance? The ideology of "preventing" disputes by using NBA profiles that many dispute the accuracy of, and while completely neglecting discussions with credible sources is stupid, because it obviously doesn't work.RoTi37 (talk) 01:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * On the contrary it does work as evident by the majority of NBA player profiles that are not having disputes. We can find 10 different sources out there listing players heights and weights at different measurements and then have 10 different posters claiming each are correct. If we have one source we all agree supersedes the rest i.e official player measurements from the team and leagues we can avoid all that. You'll also notice that the media report you keep bringing up is from the same raptors website you are trying to discredit. Also we can't just make up new policy's we go by policy's or practices that have been in place for years here i.e. listing players by their nba profiles and have worked fine for the most part. Duhon (talk) 03:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

How can you insist that the site with the URL http://blog.raptors.com is the same as nba.com/raptors, yet at the same time insist that nba.com/raptors and NBA.com are two different sites? How can you say that we can find "10 different sources listing players heights and weights at different heights and weights" when, regarding the article at hand, all of the major sources agree on either 6'11 and 231lbs OR 7'0" 257 lbs for Valanciunas, and nothing else. So you're admitting that Wikipedia is not a democracy? When certain policies are obviously flawed then they need to be reviewed by a panel and be revised - they shouldn't be kept just because they are the easiest way out and because they work for the most part (a percentage like 50.1% is also "most"), and especially not because they have been here for years. And where is this third party you have appealed to?RoTi37 (talk) 04:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Listen to me they are all the same site. Please click on the "team" tab on that link you provided and tell me what you see there? I've been saying all along that raptors.com (of which your link is part of) and NBA.com are indeed one and the same. The heights and everything are mutually shared as the raptors and the NBA are all the same organization. Also no wikipedia is not a democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy you can read that plainly here. Like I said i have put this debate up for a thrid opinion you can see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion Unfortunately nobody has picked it up yet. It is important you understand wikipedia is not about displaying original research it is about displaying facts as decided by other more knowledgable institutions which is why NBA team heights are used. If you feel so greatly about it honestly suggest you take it up with the raptors organization or the NBA and perhaps they can provide you with an answer as to how and why they list their player heights as they do Duhon (talk) 05:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Listen how can you insist that they are all the same site when the URLs are different, and the information that appears on the blog.raptors.com site doesn't necessarily appear on NBA.com (in fact it never does)? This source lists him at 7'0" and 257lbs and is from NBA.com http://www.nba.com/gamenotes/raptors.pdf. If the previous link was your "game book" that can be "purchased at the Rogers Centre" then you will note that it does not say 6'11" 231 lbs. Obviously Wikipedia is not a democracy, but according to the "Official NBA profile policy" it is also nothing short of an archaic Internet dictatorship. Do you even know what a "fact" is? NBA profile listings are not facts because they are not widely accepted truths; there are obviously other credible sources that dispute them. If you keep insisting that the heights and weights are "listed then why doesn't wikipedia have "real" height and weights as well, like it does for pro wrestlers along with their "billed" height and weight? I do know why the NBA lists players incorrectly; players want to be listed at certain heights because they want to fit that position better and/or be more intimidating to opponents if they are listed as being bigger than they actually are. Which is why the NBA almost never updates their information. Do NBA listings sound like facts to you? Jonas Valanciunas' height and weight should definitely include 7'0" 257lbs because of the uncertainty. RoTi37 (talk) 05:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Break
I haven't read anything above, but I was involved in a discussion about the same topic a few months ago. As far as I'm concerned, the NBA.com game notes and the main NBA.com profiles are equally "official", and we have to make some editorial decisions about how to handle that contradiction. Maybe we could do something with footnotes, like at the Dennis Rodman page, although there might still be a dispute as to which numbers get priority. We could also remove the height/weight from the infobox entirely, and discuss the contradictions in the body of the article. One other possibility is to alter the infobox template itself to allow us to display multiple heights within the infobox. (But don't try to do anything like that unless you know what you are doing.) Zagal e jo^^^ 06:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I would argue that the listings by the Game Notes http://www.nba.com/gamenotes/raptors.pdf should take priority, because the game notes show the game log for the matchup against Golden State on Jan. 28, 2013, and thus I am confident that the Game Notes are more relevant than the NBA profile which does not update its heights and weights nearly as often as its game logs. Also, there are two sources by the Raptors, and according to Duhon thus by the NBA, that list Valanciunas as 7'0" 257 lbs, as opposed to his "official" NBA.com profile standing alone. RoTi37 (talk) 06:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion either way. I posted a request for comments at Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject NBA. Zagal e jo^^^ 06:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I feel i presented some strong arguments in the above discussion to use the official NBA.com profile listing and based on the most recent edits it appears that is the preferred method to list down his height and weight by the other editors as well. Again i see no reason to go against the grain of the vast majority of the NBA players on wikipedia by not listing his height and weight based on his NBA profile. As i mentioned with so many varied sources out there using that as the main one to turn to makes the most sense.

Either way i suggest we lay off any more reverts until we can come to a group decision on this. RoTi37 other users besides me have now reverted your edits i suggest you make your views heard here first before you decided to edit again. Duhon (talk) 06:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The field says "listed height" and the infobox has two links: nba.com and basketball-reference.com. If there are others references that diverge from those sources that seem equally or more credible, why would we not use expanatory footnotes with addition sources to explain the height that is finally chosen with an short note on the major conflicts.—Bagumba (talk) 08:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

That would be one option but honestly this whole dispute is mainly due to one editor only who has taken issue with the height listing as it was listed. There is really nothing unique about Jonas and his height listings compared to any other NBA player or player page on Wikipedia, where you will often see other listings around the net aside from the official NBA.com one. Which is why it is usually just much simpler to just base listings from the NBA.com source as opposed to having disputes over which source is more valid. If there really are other editors out there who really do feel a footnote attached is necessary, i wouldn't have an issue however. If not this may just be a one editor issue. Duhon (talk) 11:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * To clarify something: the press release, game notes, and profile page all come from different parts of NBA.com. Each could be considered official. Occasionally, you will find contradictions even within NBA.com itself. Zagal e jo^^^ 17:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Polling is not a substitute for discussion. For the actual height listed in the infobox, a strong case can be made to follow precedent and use one of nba.com or b-r.com. However, if people want to invest the time to provide additional insight on conflicting heights, I think it can be incorporated through explanatory footnotes. Even if we don't "fix" all articles, I see no harm in improving this one if someone comes up with acceptable wording.—Bagumba (talk) 20:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Duhon you will note that the Official Toronto Raptors Game Notes http://www.nba.com/gamenotes/raptors.pdf is on the NBA.com Official Site, and now the Game Notes even have Rudy Gay and Hamed Haddadi added to the roster along with their heights and weights; your argument that my source is not an "Official NBA source" has no merit. Let's look at a player who has had his height and weight disputed for a long time, Kevin Garnett. You will note that both the official Celtics Game Notes http://www.nba.com/gamenotes/celtics.pdf and his NBA profile http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_garnett/ are in agreement. You will also note that the entire Celtics team's listings from the two links are in agreement. You will also note that Jonas Valanciunas' height and weight from the Raptors Game Notes are not in agreement with his NBA profile; thus the issue of Valanciunas' height and weight listings is a unique one. Duhon, which arguments have you provided that are actually even valid, let alone strong? The only valid argument you have ever brought up was the fact that Wikipedia usually lists players from an Official NBA source, thus Valanciunas' height and weight should be imported from his NBA profile. But, that argument is not strong at all, because I have provided two sources that agree that Valanciunas' height is 7'0" and weight is 257lbs; one from the Raptors site (which you can deny, but remember you admitted yourself that since the Raptors organization is part of the NBA, they should be considered one and the same), and another one directly pulled from NBA.com which is undeniable. RoTi37 (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:TLDR. I am not sure how anyone will get in trying to "win" by reasoning which one is "right" as opposed to just presenting what all the facts say with the help of an explanatory footnote.—Bagumba (talk) 20:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Then 6'11 231lbs shouldn't be the only listing shown in the infobox until the NBA decides to update its listings and the Game Notes are in agreement with the NBA profiles. RoTi37 (talk) 21:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If there is indeed a general consensus that a footnote should be added then I feel the format presented in the Dennis Rodman article could be used as an example. With the infobox's listed height and weight reflecting the NBA.com and BB-R profile but with an added footnote listing that there are/is other height and weights listed for him as well. I feel that would a the decision that would bring the least controversy to the page Duhon (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

The listings provided in the Game Notes are also official listings from the NBA, so why should the NBA profile listings be the only ones prominently represented, and the Game Note listings be relegated to a measly footnote? Either both listings, which are equally official and valid, are presented in the infobox, or no listings are provided and are instead discussed in the page.RoTi37 (talk) 21:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The consensus is that the listed weight and height in the infobox are based on the NBA profiles. We don't care about any other sources because only one set of weight and height can be included in the infobox. A footnote is helpful to show other weight and height given by other sources. Anyway, the weight and height info merely gives readers some ideas about the players' dimension and aren't very important IMO. I don't quite understand why you guys invest so much energy debating such trivial matter.— Chris! c / t 23:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

So you're saying we have reached a consensus? I beg to differ.RoTi37 (talk) 00:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I think he's talking about a consensus for general practices, not about this specific case. I'd be OK with removing the height/weight from the infobox and discussing things in the text. Zagal e jo^^^ 01:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The viewpoint of — Chris! c / t seems to be the general viewpoint of most editors on this page that the info box is for listing the NBA profile heights, just going throught the edit history of this page we can see that. I think it's way too drastic of a step to actually remove the height and weight listing from the infobox. It is not that large of an issue with regards to jonas. I don't see why the compromise of an added footnote wouldn't be the best solution? Duhon (talk) 03:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Why would you think that it'd be too drastic to remove the infobox when you express that "it is not that large of an issue with regards to jonas"? If you don't think it's that much of a big deal, then why are you balking at that idea and making such a fuss out of it? Why not put 7'0" 257 lbs in the infobox and have 6'11 231lbs in the footnote?RoTi37 (talk) 03:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Third opinion
Hi. I've removed the third opinion request, since there are now more than two people involved in discussion on this talkpage.

However, FWIW, I think the thing here is demonstrating that there is a consensus, as claimed above, for using official NBA heights and weights. Where is the discussion that established the consensus? Formerip (talk) 21:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've always been hesitant to use the word "consensus" for anything on Wikipedia, but the issue has been discussed several times over the years. Here is the discussion in which it was decided to change the infobox to say "Listed height". Here is another discussion about heights and weights.
 * But again, I need to stress that all of the different heights and weights being mentioned here can be traced to material on NBA.com. The problem is that NBA.com contradicts itself. Zagal e jo^^^ 03:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Poll
I think we can take a poll now to get a feel for where we are at with the various options. Please chime in on your preference. Feel free to add new options if any are missing:


 * 1) List height in infoxbox based off of NBA.com standard profile, no added footnote.
 * 2) List height in infoxbox based off of NBA.com standard profile, add footnote about other sources.
 * 3) List height in infoxbox based off of some other source, add footnote about other sources.
 * 4) Dont list height in infobox, explain various sources in prose instead.

Option 2

 * 1) Consistent with other listed heights in other bios, while acknowledging known major conflicts.  Not having it in the infobox for this case seems too drastic since the field already prefaces the height with "listed"—Bagumba (talk) 03:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) To keep article consistent with other listed NBA bio articles. A footnote can be added for other sources deemed legitimate. There is not enough of a general "controversy" about Jonas's Height and weight outside of this discussion to warrant the height and weight listings not being mentioned at all. Duhon (talk) 04:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) After some thought, this is what I would actually like to see. Standardization is a good thing. And I think if something has to be in the infobox, it should be consistent with the data from the main NBA.com profile, since that is probably the source that most people would consult first. (The other sources are easy to miss unless you already know what to look for.) I do think removing the height may be the most pragmatic solution, because even with a footnote, others will come around to revert things in the future. (Look at the edit histories for articles like Paul George and Michael Beasley - endless height-related edits.) But that's not an ideal solution. Plus, to be consistent, we'd have to remove the height from the team roster template, and that would look pretty awkward. Zagal e jo^^^ 06:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) As Zagalejo said, that looks like the best option. Kante4 (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Make the footnote similar to what Paul George's infobox has. DaHuzyBru (talk) 12:02, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Best option.— Chris! c / t 22:48, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Option 3

 * 1) RoTi37 (talk) 04:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

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