Talk:Jonathan Irwin

Content dispute
(identifiably the daughter of the subject of this article) has reverted my attempted cleanup of this article. My cleanup was based on the fact that the article was written too much in the tone of a personal reflection, contained a vast amount of name-dropping, had too much material of a genealogical nature, and was largely unreferenced. My attempt was to leave behind the neutral, purportedly verifiable (although not actually verifiable due to incomplete references) material. A specific deletion regarded Irwin's career at Phoenix Park Racecourse where he is claimed to have instituted the "Cartier Million", Europe's richest horse race. Surely such a claim should be verifiable through a Google search, but Google can find no evidence of a horse race called the Cartier Million.

I invite the author to enter into discussion here so that consensus may be reached over the content of this article. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * responded to this request on her talk page. I am copying her reply here so that the conversation about article content may be had in the proper venue.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear Dan 61,
 * It occurs to me that you are unfamiliar with Thoroughbred Racing and perhaps with "Things" Irish. 2mins have produced a bevy of references on The Cartier Million within Google. Note quote "Irwin masterminded The Cartier Million". If you need further proof call The Irish Turf Club. As to name dropping --- you can't avoid a father-in-laws name & Tim Vigors was one of the 6 Irishmen to fly in the Battle of Britain and later set up The Coolmore Stud which now is the most dominant thoroughbred company worldwide. The reason so many use Wikipedia is the cross referencing from one entry to another. Otherwise you end up with nothing but bloodless & anodyne entries.


 * Below are some of the Cartier Million references to be found within Google:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kooyonga
 * http://www.goracing.ie/HRI/Whats-On/About-Horse-Racing/Profiles/Jockey-Profiles/Michael-Kinane/
 * http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/property/phoenix-park-homes-plan-unveiled-at-last-171677.html
 * http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SHE'S+ONE+IN+A+MILLION!+RACING%3A+IRISH+FILLIES+ARE+READY+FOR+GOFFS...-a0208081311
 * http://www.mullocksauctions.co.uk/lot-21020-fine_horse_racing_oil_painting_by_graham_isom.html
 * http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=joined_up_thinking_%E2%80%93_at_last
 * http://www.dublinpeople.com/article.php?id=522&l=


 * Actually, you can avoid the father-in-law's name (remember, this isn't a genealogy) and a recounting of Tim Vigors' accomplishments. You are writing an article about Jonathan Irwin, not Tim Vigors.  When you bolster Vigors' accomplishments, it looks like you are trying to make Irwin look more important based on the accomplishments of his acquaintances.  If Vigors is such a notable person, write an article about him, and then you can link your father's article to Vigors'.  As for your references to the Cartier Million horse race, thank you for finding those.  My searches kept turning up that phrase as the name of a horse, or of people.  I'll be happy to let that part of the article stand, as this reference verifies the claim that Irwin created the idea of this race, and this one verifies that it was the world's richest race at the time.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Re your objections to genealogy, I confess I am totally at loss, entry after entry on Wikipedia includes the genealogy of the person in question, for instance and I give four examples, Rosamund Lehmann, Evelyn Waugh, Diana Mitford and David Cameron (I know Cameron is the prime minsiter but his Wikipedia contains no less than three paragraphs on his genealogy.)

I only advised you as to who Tim Vigors was, I never intended on including that information in Irwin's article. Within the article I use Wing Commander as that is infact his title and the correct way to address him.(Irwin.lily (talk) 13:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC))
 * I don't agree that the articles you have pointed out are particularly enhanced by the inclusion of such genealogical information, but I will grant you that it does appear to be a common practice. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:23, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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