Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive 2

Kat Walsh
Posted to Jorge Luis Borges:Talk by 200.42.95.188 2005-08-28 12:58:46

Estimada Kat Walsh: ¡Muchas gracias por su contestación! Quisiera saber si hay artículos sobre Jorge Luis Borges en español, because my english is not good... De cualquier manera, me gustaría leer y/o contactar a usuarios de Wikipedia que se especialicen en Jorge Luis Borges. Quisiera saber también si alguno de ellos conoce un trabajo de él, tercero de igual nombre, cuyo título es "La Espera" El primero es un cuento publicado en "El Aleph" El segundo es un poema publicado en "Historia de la noche". Pero existe un tercer poema de J.L.Borges también titulado "La Espera". ¿Alguien lo conoce y tiene su texto? De ser así, me gustaría que me lo enviara o me dijera donde puedo leerlo. Muchas gracias. nuncstanc2005 Mi dirección electrónica es nuncstanc2005.@.yahoo.com.ar
 * &iquest;Sabe Vd. de cual año (aproximadamente)? &iquest;Hay un frase desde el poema? Y &iquest;como sabe Vd. que exista un tercer poema distinto con el mismo título? (Pregunto porqué un bibliografía típicamente se da solamente títulos.) Creo que será dificíl buscarlo sin estos datos. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * El cuento desde "El Aleph"
 * Referencia al poema desde "Historia de la noche"

Borges and Uruguay
This article is very good, but it lacks the mention of the special affect that Borges had for Uruguay, country where several of his tales and poetry took place (eg. "Funes el Memorioso") and country where he was conceived.

El Costado oriental de Borges

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.76.8.212 (talk • contribs) 09:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC).

Borges and Nobel Prize
I think, too, the article is good. But I think the issue of the nomination to the Nobel Prize for years is much more important than many others discussed in the biography. For decades Borges was the first choice to be elected for Nobel Prize in Literature, but he never won it (there was an elector who continually denied his vote). At a distance, it turned out to discredit the Academy rather than the author. Some people have argued that Borges's political views (as a conservative) where in conflict with the ideals instituted by Mr. Nobel to his Prizes. So, I believe it should be discussed in his biography (perhaps near the section where it is mentioned other doctorates and prizes he won, as the Cervantes). Nahuel &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.55.119.6 (talk • contribs).


 * Borges had conservative views that did not sit well with the Academy. He supported the Revolución Libertadora, and later he made the mistake of endorsing Augusto Pinochet's government when he visited Chile. Borges is claimed to have said "Not granting me the Nobel Prize has become a Scandinavian tradition; since I was born they have not been granting it to me." I haven't found a source for the latter. I leave it to those who've been editing this article for a long time to find a suitable spot to treat this "tradition" and its causes in a suitable part of the article. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've heard all this, too, including the quotation, but can't remember where. Does someone have a citable source for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Let's see:
 * An interview with the Chilean writer Volodia Teitelboim, friend of Neruda and of Salvador Allende, and biographer of Pinochet. He says: Un día visité en su casa, en Suecia, a un gran amigo de Neruda, miembro del jurado que le dio el Premio Nobel y gran escritor. Me dijo: “Quiero explicarle por qué no le dimos el premio a Borges, por su visita y su abrazo a Pinochet”. Y luego añadió: “Si a pesar de esto que le digo se lo hubiéramos dado, tenga la seguridad de que ni un solo sueco lo habría entendido”.
 * Another interview with María Esther Vázquez, biographer of Borges and of Victoria Ocampo, where she mentions the above but denies such a direct relationship.
 * A blog post, very POV, but with a quote from a Borges biographer, Edwin Williamson: “The visit to [Pinochet’s] Chile finished off Borges’s chances of ever winning the Nobel Prize. That year, and for the remaining years of his life, his candidacy was opposed by a veteran member of the Nobel Prize committee, the socialist writer Arthur Lundkvist, a long-standing friend of the Chilean Communist poet Pablo Neruda, who had received the Nobel Prize in 1971. Lundkvist would subsequently explain to Volodia Teitelboim, one of Borges’s biographers and a onetime chairman of the Chilean Communist Party, that he would never forgive Borges his public endorsement of General Pinochet’s regime.”
 * The biography ("Life of Borges" I think) is reviewed in many other places. The quote about the "Scandinavian tradition" can be found in a million places, but always as an unsourced attribution. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 00:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like if someone wants to add this to the article, they should track down the Williamson biography, verify the quote, and cite it. And it would be great if we had a solid citation for the quote about the "Scandinavian tradition"; even an anecdote told by a citable source would do, as long as we made it clear that it could be apocryphal. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Please, verify the million places: at ten seconds per each source it will take you only a few thousand hours. Jclerman 11:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

So, any primary source cite of Borges "endorsing" Pinochet? (And of similar claims of Borges supporting Jorge Rafael Videla?) Quote (link above) from the Nobel official in question is obviously not a reliable indicator of supposed endorsement. FWIW, I understand Pablo Neruda wrote an ode to a dictator upon his death: "Stalinists, Let us bear this title with pride". That would be "endorsement" in my book. Also, can a single Nobel official block an award? (I wonder how it came to be that Mohandas Ghandi never received a Nobel.) --Munge 20:49, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * While I don't have anything on the Pinochet front (nor anything citable on the Videla front), I'm pretty certain the latter is correct. Remember, Borges was an ardent anti-Peronist. It would have been astounding for him not to initially welcome Videla. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I am seeking comment on Village pump (policy) about when, if ever, it is appropriate to mention an alleged nomination for a Nobel prize. My opinion is that, since the list of invited nominators is largely secret (except of course for former prize winners, and in the case of the peace prize, where everyone's half-brother can nominate) and since the deliberations, and even the procedures are secret, there are real verifiability problems with any claim such as this. We can verify that X said he nominated Y, but can we verify that X is a nominator? Can we verify that X is not lying, perhaps politely? Does the committee take seriously nominators who violate their pledge of secrecy? Robert A.West (Talk) 00:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't speak to the internal dynamics of the Nobel Committee itself, but it's widely known that Borges was subjected to obloquy by other members of his field because he did not conform to the doctrinaire socialist or proto-Marxist view that was customarily expected. And that he was denied recognition by this same community for his literary work because of his dissenting political views, while writers whose work, while meritorious, was objectively inferior to his, have received widespread accolades within the world of literary criticism, e.g. Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Reinaldo Arenas raises this subject in his engrossing, remarkably moving memoir, "Before Night Falls."

I changed this section slightly. I switched Reyes with Kafka because I thought Kafka was more important and an obvious parallel to Borges. Also I changed the citation to the Nobel prize website. The old citation was an article on Philip Roth that, although interesting, didn't have anything to do with those authors not receiving the nobel prize. -DT

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobel laureate Camilo José Cela was certainly well to the right of Borges. - Jmabel | Talk 00:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

So he didn't get the Nobel... I understand this and sympathize (I agree he deserved it more than anyone), but feel there's a problem with footnotes 14 and 15. First off, footnote 14, the source itself may be a seemingly worthy source but its debatable whether it can be taken seriously. It only mentions Borges in passing and devotes much more time to arguing for Graham Greene. Furthermore, in regards to Borges it is unconfirmed hearsay. What's more, it describes Borges as a conservative. While I would hesitate to call him for either the left or the right it seems ridiculous to speculate on someone whose name we don't even know (committee members) as making a judgment call because they view Borges as too "conservative" merely based on his self-described anarcho-pacifism which really could lean both left and right. Regardless of whether one views Borges as left or right, it is undocumented hearsay (as far as this article is concerned) to assume the reasoning behind his not winning the prize.

And footnote 15 is ridiculous. It states that NOT getting the Nobel puts him in company with certain literary dignitaries then proceeds to link to the list of actual laureates just to prove that said dignitaries are not on that list. This is a useless footnote. Not getting struck by lightning puts him in the same company as a lot of people, but you wouldn't link to a list of people who WERE struck by lightning just to reiterate that he (and 3/4's of the globe) are not on that list. This footnote is redundant and should be removed. Hell, a lot of great writers never won the Nobel, should we list them all? Ironically, the selection included would is as contentious as that made by the Nobel committee.

This should be looked at more carefully. Wellesradio (talk) 17:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)Wellesradio

The 2005 Penguin edition of "The book of imaginary beings" has the following quote from Mario Vargas Llosa on its back flap: "To have denied him the Nobel prize is as bad as the case of Joyce, Proust and Kafka". Sounds like a suitable quote to me... Tomixdf (talk) 20:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's also a quote that's not in the article. It would be fine if that quote were included rather than the arbitrary list that IS in the article. I suppose we could just amend it by adding Dean Koontz, Charles Bukowski, Carl Ewald and Stephen Frey since none of them won the Nobel either.

That said, the argument remains that the reasoning behind Borges's exclusion is open for debate. This article does not reflect that and leans toward the idea (maybe true maybe not) that he was excluded because of his political views. If there is more to support this, the article should reflect that and cite more detailed sources.Wellesradio (talk) 05:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I like the Nobel section the way it is now. No muss, no fuss, no controversy. Just plain facts. He didn't get it and there's speculation as to why. One footnote to the New York Times. Wellesradio (talk) 16:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Wellesradio

Umberto Eco
I've cut the following recently added sentence: "However, this technique [writing a review of a non-existent work of literature] was most prominently made use of by Umberto Eco in his Name of the Rose. In fact, a character in Eco's book is a blind librarian with a name very similar to Borges." As I remember from reading Name of the Rose some 20 years ago, it is not a review of a non-existent work of literature, and while a presumably non-existent work&mdash;a treatise on comedy by Aristotle&mdash;drives the plot, that work is never seen by the POV character. Eco's Jorge of Burgos is definitely a nod to Borges, as his William of Baskerville is a nod to both Arthur Conan-Doyle and William of Ockham. It might be worth getting more discussion of Borges's influence on others into the article, and the "Jorge of Burgos" thing could be mentioned there, but I think the remark here on the "technique" is simply wrong. --Jmabel | Talk 19:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * As I recall reading it, the young novice does in fact see the book in the final confrontation with Jorge, and a paragraph or two is read- consistent with Borges' technique, though the book centers more around the detection of the murders, the reason, and the mindset of the medieval monks, so the sentences do not belong anyway. --Maru (talk) Contribs 20:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

FriendsofBorges.net
Does http://www.FriendsofBorges.net really belong in the external links? If so, can someone give a less florid and more informative link caption? My quick impression of the site is that it is slow to load, rather diffuse in its content, and written in poor English. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Cut from article
I recently reverted an alternative version of the last few paragraphs of the International recognition section which had motivated the addition of the cleanup tag to this previously good article. There may well be something in here worth salvaging, but let's work out what and then put it into the article properly; there is clearly nothing here so notable that as to be worth marring the article. All of this material was anonymously added without citation, is gossipy, basically unencyclopedic in style, and seems to me to be quite POV. ("Georgie &hellip; the ill treatment given by Elsa to Borges &hellip; She is acquiring a fame of her own for her business like grip &hellip; an attitude totally in contradiction with &hellip; Like out of a Borges fiction &hellip;". Need I say more?) Someone should identify what relevant facts reside here, find some citations to back them up, and re-add those facts to the article.

"In 1975, after the death of his almost centenary and authoritarian Mother (with whom Georgie lived all his life in a child-like relationship), Borges was often invited to countries all over the world, thus traveling quite often until the end of 1985 when he needed hospitalisation while in Geneva."

"Borges was married in 1967 to Elsa Helena Astete Millán, a quite illiterate widow chosen by his Mother, then over 90 years old, because Mrs Leonor wanted to find a substitute who would care for his blind son after her death. Georgie and Elsa never consummated their marriage (Borges has a phobic fear of copulation and mirrors); they lived in separated rooms and the first night Borges stayed with his Mother. Their fake 'marriage' last less than three years. Because of the ill treatment given by Elsa to Borges, he asked his then assistant Prof Norman Thomas di Giovanni help to divorce Elsa whom Borges feared so much that he hid far away from Buenos Aires to start his divorce proceedings. Then he returned to live with his Mother. During his last years, Borges knew worldwide recognition. He needed someone to assist him in order to travel but his friends were by then old and married and none of them could assist Georgie in regular trips abroad. Thus a young student from his Anglo-Saxon group, Miss Kodama, had the chance to chaperon Borges in his trips. An account of their journeys was produced in 1984 under the name Atlas, with excellent texts by Borges but poor photographs."

The 26th April 1986, a few weeks before his death of a terminal cancer, Miss Kodama surprised the world and close friends of Borges with an irregular certificate of marriage obtained thanks to the Geneva consul of the Paraguayan dictator Stroessner, Gustavo Gramont Berres, a well known criminal who is now in prison. After a change in Borges´ Will, Miss Kodama also inherited the rights to exploit Borges works (which are now worth millions). She is acquiring a fame of her own for her business like grip on the commercialization of Borges name and works (an attitude totally in contradiction with the selfless behaviour of Borges regarding the marketing value of his works and his generosity with money and towards others). In particular Miss Kodama is building a reputation for her numerous and systematic legal proceedings against anyone who will dissent with her marketing of Borges works and her interpretation. Since 2004 Miss Kodama lost several cases, including in the High Court, an Argentinean Criminal judge has warned her that she has no right to abuse the intellectual property of Borges works. Like out of a Borges fiction, the universal history continues …

"Borges died of liver cancer in Geneva in 1986 and, contrary to the will expressed in his poetry, his mortal body is buried in the Cimetière des Rois instead of the pantheon of his illustrious ancestors in La Recoleta."

[end cut passage] - Jmabel | Talk 05:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Title of Book in Spanish
The book translated as "Book of Imaginary Beings" was originally published in Spanish as "Manual de zoología fantástica," ("Handbook of Fantastic Zoology") not as "Libro de los seres imaginarios." It was written as a collaborative work with Margarita Guerrero. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marcella g (talk • contribs) 22 Feb 2006.


 * As we indicate (accurately, I believe) at Bibliography of Jorge Luis Borges, the Libro de los seres imaginarios (1967) is an expansion of the Manual de zoología fantástica (1957). To the best of my knowledge, all published English-language translations are of the latter expanded work. References for these dates: and, respectively. And, yes, Margarita Guerrero should be listed as a co-author; she is appropriately credited at Bibliography of Jorge Luis Borges; I'll add mention of her here.. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Friends of Borges link
I'm sorry about this as I'm new here (I'm not sure if I'm posting this correctly), but I changed the link for Friends of Borges because the old link was dead. The new one is correct.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hodgson (talk • contribs) 16:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation of the name
Since this happens for the second time, let me state it here: the IPA pronunciation is. This is a phonetic, not phonemic transcription. In Spanish, and  are realized lax when the syllable is closed (i. e. ends in a consonant), and tense when the syllable is open (i. e. ends in the vowel). See tenseness, phoneme, allophone, etc. and please don't change ɔ and ɛ back! --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 19:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

anarchism
borges is listed in Nihilist anarchism. maybe be more specific here. —This unsigned comment was added by Unixer (talk • contribs) 24 March 2006.


 * Sounds inappropriate to me. He was not an anarchist, and I wouldn't consider him a nihilist, except insofar as he certainly entertained extreme notions of solipsism. - Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Borges was not that kind of anarchist. He said: "I am a Spencerian anarchist who deplores violence, from Cain's stone to nuclear weapons" (Interviú magazine, Madrid 1984, p. 32-34, quoted in El Otro Borges, by Fernando Mateo, Ed. Equis, Buenos Aires 1997, ISBN 9879647505). Many times he said his father was also a Spencerian anarchist, meaning the The Man Versus the State type. Feel free to add this idea to the article. --Filius Rosadis 14:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, he wasn't really much of a spencerian at all...--Buridan 00:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say he was. I only quoted and referenced his own words. --Filius Rosadis 13:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * At age 86, he proudly proclaims himself "a poet, an anarchist, and a cosmopolitaan", from the dust jacket of Atlas, Jorge Luis Borges, in collaboratoin with Maria Kodama, translated by Anthony Kerrigan, Dutton, 1985 --munge 09:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Mirrors and paternity
Last editions have removed a reference to the double source of the (fictional) dogma of paternity and mirrors. I'll fix that. "La tierra que habitamos es un error, una incompetente parodia. Los espejos y la paternidad son abominables porque la multiplican y afirman" / "The earth we inhabit is an error, an incompetent parody. Mirrors and paternity are abominable because they multiply and affirm it." ("Hakim, the masked dyer of merv" / "El tintorero enmascarado Hakim de Merv"). Borges later used the same idea in his "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius". --Filius Rosadis 16:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Library cataloging
I do not understand the significance of this. Why did the other employees forbid him to catalogue more than 100 books a day? What does this mean? 14:22, May 13, 2006 User:Panzer raccoon!
 * It means that if he did the work of a dozen of other staff, they could be dismissed. The unwritten code of state employees is firs to work as to keep the status quo. Jclerman 21:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Sexuality references
The issue of Borges' sexuality contains some conjecture, but this article would be incomplete without some small mention of the issue. All new statements in this subsection are taken from (and attributed to) Brant's essay, which is mentioned by its full title and hyperlinked. What more is needed? Bhumiya (said/done) 05:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Can we get a citation for This is shown in his short story "The Sect of The Phoenix", which focuses entirely on sex yet never names the act otherwise than under the signifier "Secret"? I have never seen that in my life. Re-reading the story, I guess I can understand where it comes from, but I can just as easily refute it... And this is not the place for original research. edit: forgot to tag this: CKnapp 00:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi CKnapp, I read it around ten years ago in a literary critics book whose name I cannot recall. In the web, I was only able to find a mention about the theory in a Spanish language blog, where another reference is quoted to that effect. See this. I will translate for you:


 * "Emir Rodríguez Monegal in his book Borges, hacia una lectura poética. (Guadarrama, Madrid, 1976) tells an anecdote from Ronald Christ, who implored Borges for him to reveal the secret of The Sect of the Phoenix. Instead of giving him a straight answer, Borges asked Christ to spend a night longer thinking on the secret in order to discover about it on his own. Next day, Christ had still not found any answer. Borges finally replied to him using these words: “Well, the act is what Whitman says ‘the divine husband knows, from the work of fatherhood’. When I first heard about this act, when I was a boy, I was shocked, shocked to think that my mother and my father had performed it. It is an amazing discovery, no? But then too is an act of inmortality, a rite of inmortality, isn’t it?” (74-75)"


 * I am still not adding it to the article as it does not feel right, being this a quote of a quote. Regards, Asterion talk 02:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that quote. Although I agree not to add it (for the same reasoning), I like knowing where that comes from. Thanks for the help, Son of Minos ;) CKnapp 04:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Despite Borges' marriage to Maria Kodama, the Wikipedia Gay Lobby made their usual attempt at insinuation and smear. So far, however, they haven't been successful with this man. I'm sure that they will try again in their attempt to attribute their juvenile, immature orientation to another famous person.Lestrade 23:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

Here's what we know. I see a Mama's boy, but not a latent homosexual.
 * Borges's fiction and nonfiction are not prim and asexual. If they had been, he simply could not have done justice to the roughness of traditional Argentine life, a roughness that evolved the tango.
 * He lived with his mother throughout his life, and she died at age 99.
 * He married for the first time after his mother was 90 years of age. This marriage lasted 3 years. We all makes mistakes in our dealings with the opposite sex.
 * He married Maria Kodama after his mother's death, and when he was past 80.

It can be quite difficult to be married to a man as brainy and as cerebral as Borges, especially one of his psychological and metaphysical insight. His writings never generated large royalties. Has any work of his been filmed? A man as intelligent as Borges would be very cautious about giving reign to his carnal instincts, in a society as brutal and carnal as that of Argentina. Borges detested Peronism and Argentine demagoguery in all its forms. But he did not do so coming from the Left, but as a 19th century liberal under strong Anglo-Saxon influence. I bet his fellow Argentines deemed his politic stance eccentric and dated.

In the English speaking world, Borges would have become a comp lit prof. He would have found it fairly easy to marry, in his 30s or 40s, one of his admiring bright students. He would have had the two children that propriety permits, and there would be no whispering about his "orientation." But Borges was the product of harsher and ruder world, where one gaucho would murder another for real or alleged slights spoken to a teenage girl who tempted fate by hanging out in trashy pubs.123.255.60.206 (talk) 01:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe you're confusing fact from fiction, art from artist. And as a Latin American, I find your claims ridiculous and borderline racist. Borges was NOT the product of a ruder Gaucho world, he was a true Argentine from an old family line, and in this sense at least he had more in common with Gore Vidal than with Louis L'Amour. Borges was fascinated by the Gaucho lifestyle, but he was also fascinated by Chicago gangsters. And if he had come from the "English speaking world" (which I don't understand since English was his first language) I doubt he would have fallen into the stereotype of a college professor you seem to have gleaned from the movies. And if his relationship to his mother had remained similar, his sexuality would probably still be under scrutiny. As it is, this is not a debate that has anything to do with your fantasies of Latin American culture.Wellesradio (talk) 21:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)Wellesradio

Women in Borges' stories
I've removed the following statments:

It is undeniable that women are almost entirely absent from his stories. Wrong. There are many female characters in his stories, such as Beatriz Viterbo (El Aleph), the English woman (Historia del guerrero y la cautiva), Emma Zunz (Emma Zunz), Ulrica (Ulrica).

Whenever they appear, most notably in El Muerto and La Intrusa, they never speak, serving as symbols or utilitarian objects. Wrong. Ulrica speaks quite a lot, in an unusually long dialogue for a Borges' tale. Emma Zunz speaks with Loewenthal (indirect speech) and then with the police (direct speech).

Either female and male Borges' characters think more than they speak. --Filius Rosadis 15:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

So you've cited two examples of women who speak out of Borges's entire output. It is undeniable that women are noticeably absent in the greater part of his work. The original point is well made. Really, one may argue that Emma Zunz is really the only female character of central importance in any of his works. Wellesradio (talk) 23:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)Wellesradio

I can't parse it & it lacks sources
This recent edit: It was speculated at the time and since that it was Borges' support for (or at least failure to condemn) the coup d'etat and subsequent dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet in Chile which ultimately led to his not receiving the award. Jclerman 07:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see any trouble parsing it, but it is, indeed unsourced. To paraphrase, "It was speculated at the time (and has been speculated at other times since then) that—ultimately—Borges' support for the coup d'etat and subsequent dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet in Chile (or, not to overstate the matter, Borges' failure to condemn the coup d'etat and subsequent dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet) led to his not receiving the award." The thread of the statement is "It was speculated… that it was Borges' support… which ultimately led to his not receiving the award."

Quotations section
Why is there a quotations section when the article links to Wikiquote anyway? Nysin 20:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Unnecessary links?
I'm not sure about the last four links on this page. The annotations site seems to be down, and the other three appear to be articles or web pages which are related to Borges, but don't necessarily bear mentioning on this page. I mean, I wrote a paper on Borges, but I'm not posting a link to it here. I'm going to delete them (Be bold!) but if anyone disagrees, please feel free to bring it up. I'm happy to discuss it. MrCheshire 19:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There is an inappropriate link at the bottom of section 2.6 to "Andrew Hurley". The Andrew Hurley referenced is a translator (Spanish to English) of Borges work. He was (not sure if he remains) a professor of English Literature in the University of Puerto Rico in Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico. He is not the drummer for the alternative rock band "Fall Out Boy". [Steph 18:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)]

Sexuality, redux
There's an awful lot of recently added material about sexuality that seems weakly cited and/or semi-attributed. Among what has recently been added:


 * That his 90-year-old mother "forced" him to marry. While I'm sure she pressured him, just how does a 90-year-old woman force her adult son to do anything?
 * Previously we had the clearly true statement that "The story 'Ulrica' from The Book of Sand tells a romantic tale of heterosexual desire, love, trust and actual sex, though it may have been only a dream" now we have (without attribution; I'm guessing this draws on Brant, but it doesn't say so):
 * The story "Ulrica" from The Book of Sand tells a romantic tale of homosexual desire, though disguised for ingenuous or homophobic readers as heterosexual unless you notice that "Ulrica = the queen of wolves" has every Amazonian male characteristics. In other words, Ulrica is an image, a sort of narcissistic mirror inspired by Ulrike von Kulmann who was an intimate friend of the famous Greta Garbo, both much admired by Borges (the true Ulrike was a friend of Jorge Luis) and both lesbians, as was also Silvina Ocampo the "wife" of his beautiful intimate friend Adolfito Bioy Casares.
 * Brant is entitled to believe that a man being in love with a somewhat mannish woman is now defined as "homosexual". Last I heard, being a man attracted to a lesbian did not make you gay any more than a predeliction for effeminate young men would make you straight. Insofar as this is Brant's opinion, if Brant's opinion is considered notable, this should be here attributed as Brant's.


 * Then we have the very odd paragraph that begins with the remarkable sentence:
 * It is no notice that Borges let several confessions "hidden in a corner of his works, certain that no one will discover them" as he says in Everything and nothing regarding a similar technique by Shakespeare whom Borges believed, as Oscar Wilde did, that become the greatest Poet of all times out of a sexual desire for one of his young male actors.
 * This and what follows is so incoherent that I hardly know what to say. Among other things, it orders us to "Read again the famous Two English Poems (without letting you distract by the false and changing dedications… [etc.]" Wikipedia is not normally engaged in the business of telling people how to read something. The upshot again seems to be that Borges was a deeply closeted gay man.

I would be inclined to revert this all, but figured I would bring it here first in case someone can rewrite it comprehensibly and with appropriate attribution and citation. - Jmabel | Talk 01:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I am dismayed to see that my inclusion of Ulrikke has been changed. I think the section is now based on conjecture and does not have enough scholarly support. I freely admit that there could be a valid homoerotic interpretation of the story, but to quash one interpretation to favor the other is poor scholarship and not in harmony with wiki standards. Opinions? Wuapinmon 21:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, the protagonist of "El muerto" clearly relishes and lusts after the "Splendid, contemptuous, red-haired woman" of Azevedo Bandeira (Hurley 197). Later he "sleeps with the woman with shining hair" (200). Two examples of definitive gaucho heterosexual lust. I'm sure this could be queered as well, but really what can't? If we're going to get that detailed about symbolism, isn't any form of sex just using someone else to masturbate yourself? I say that both sides of the argument must share the space, but to paint the man as decidedly one way or the other is impossible to prove and, ultimately, pointless.

Hurley, Andrew. Jorge Luis Borges: Collected Fictions. New York: Penguin, 1998.

Wuapinmon 21:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Some of this has now been removed; we still have his 90-year-old mother "forcing" him to marry, with a citation so vague as to defy verifiability. - Jmabel | Talk 04:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Ancestry redux
Recent edit that I reverted (bold is what was added and reverted): "…who, around 1870, married the criollo probably mestizo (see the "dark blooded" description of the Borges in B's biography) Francisco Borges…": No idea what biography is being cited here, "dark blooded" is an odd phrase so I'd want to see it cited and "criollo probably mestizo" is pretty much a contradiction in terms, in the Argentine use of criollo. - Jmabel | Talk 03:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

International recognition
The section is largely concerned with recognition by English-speakers. Could someone add something more about others? Didn't French translation play a large part in spreading knowledge of his poetry in Europe? 165.165.219.242 21:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely. If someone knows more about this, it would be a great addition. Unsurprisingly, we don't have a lot of people working in the English-language Wikipedia who are familiar with the body of work translated from Spanish into French. - Jmabel | Talk 19:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The French Wikipedia article is minimal. It seems like a partial translation of the English. - Jmabel | Talk 19:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

O.B.E.
Borges cannot have been awarded the OBE since he was not a British subject. It's possible he was granted an honorary OBE. Citation needed. Richard Pinch 21:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Jorge Luis Borges
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  16:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Themes section
While the themes section is pretty accurate and good to have, I see two problems with it as it is structured now:

1) Why only national/religious themes? Especially the national ones seem totally unimportant in a Borges article, as they seem to have been unimportant to him: "As I think of the many myths, there is one that is very harmful, and that is the myth of countries." -JLB (on the other hand he might have placed his stories in diverse settings in order to show his belief that countries are countries are harmful myths, although I don't think so). Idealism, dreams, immortality, etc. are themes that seem much more important..

2) An overwhelming number of his texts have (many) more than one themes and it feels wrong to only list them under one of them..of course it's not really possible to list the same book three or four times, so my proposal is to keep the themes here, remove the titles under them, and create a new page listing the themes and texts that relate to them, with the texts appearing under every theme under which they belong.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alexhard (talk • contribs) 18:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC).

Why are so many trying to slander Borges?
All of the speculation on Borges sexuality should be completely absent from the article unless someone has some sort of proof that he was involved in homosexual flings or something of this nature. All "metatextual" analysis of "sexuality" in Borges writings has no place on this page. Borge himself has said that a poem stands on its own, without the author. There should be no entire section on sexuality consisting of perverse speculation by people with no reference or evidence of any homosexual acts or relationships by Borges. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnwgoes (talk • contribs) 15 November 2006.


 * I half agree and half not. I think that on a writer who wrote so little even touching on sexuality, writing about his sexuality is rather beside the point. But if one is going to write about it: orientation and behavior are two different matters. Especially in his generation, it would be very possible for someone of strong homosexual inclinations not to have acted on them. It would precisely be evidence of such orientation in his texts that would be of interest. But (back to the first hand), there is awfully little such evidence, and everything I've read on this seems quite a stretch. - Jmabel | Talk 07:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This belief in sexual orientation, as if it was some sort of physical property of a human being, is absurd. You cannot understand Borges the man by studying his literature, looking for clues about his sexual fantasies by reading his stories, any more than you can understand a father or mother by studying the child. The literature is seperate from the man, as Borges has made clear in his lectures. All of this deconstructionism belongs elsewhere, it has no place in an article on the man, if the goal is objectivity. By all means discuss his life, the events of his life, but these convuluted discussions about his "sexual nature" belong in silly journals and in depraved musings. This garrulous section about Borges sexuality is slanderous and reflects poorly on the objective quality of the article. The section should be removed. --Johnwgoes 01:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not for a moment saying that sexual orientation is "some sort of physical property of a human being": it is precisely a matter of perception and presentation, above all self-perception and self-presentation. From everything I can see, Borges's self-presentation was, in gender terms, absolutely conventionally male, and, in erotic terms, that of a person with no great interest in sex or sexuality. I agree that it is almost a non-topic in his case. It's like trying to write about what he thought about baseball.


 * Conversely, I don't see any slander here, any more than I would if someone were to conjecture that he preferred left-handed pitchers. - Jmabel | Talk 17:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Please. Johnwgoes 12:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what can you see about Borges? If this section is to remain, it must at least be rid of speculation and be filled with facts. I would like to state my intent to edit this section and remove the speculation about the meaning of the Sect of the Phoenix (and it's supposed reflection of a fear of homosexuality) and other speculation that has no basis in citation or in direct observation of Borges' life. Johnwgoes 12:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the section some and have removed some of the more speculatory comments and traces of original research. I also removed a quote attributed to Borges that I have been unable to confirm anywhere else. Knowing Borges' work it seems unlikely he would give an easy answer to such a question. I don't think this section is really ideal at the moment, but I think it's somewhat better than it was before. I also added a bit of polish and rephrased a couple of sentences. Johnwgoes 08:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all, a heterosexual context prevails in Hombre de la Esquina Rosada; cf Delia Elena San Marco. Moreover, the theme of heteroromantic obsession arises in The Draped Mirrors and of course in The Aleph. Of Beatriz, Borges says she "really existed and I was very much and hopelessly in love with her." (in the Commentary on The Aleph, in The Aleph and Other Stories 1933-1969, edited and translated by Norman Thomas Di Giovanni in collaboration with Jorge Luis Borges, Dutton, 1978, p264). Perhaps I am easily fooled. Many say that Beatriz did not exist and that Borges modeled the story after (or wrote it for) Estele Canto; e.g. see http://www.uiowa.edu/borges/vb1/balder1.htm. Moving right along, the locus of evidence for his homophobia arises in a tirade against the glorification of bullying, found in Nuestras imposibilidades:


 * Añadiré otro ejemplo curioso: el de la sodomía. En todos los países de la tierra, una indivisible reprobación recae sobre los dos ejecutores del inimaginable contacto. Abominación hicieron los dos; su sangre sobre ellos, dice el Levítico. No así entre el malevaje de Buenos Aires, que reclama una especie de veneración para el agente activo--porque lo embromó al compañero. Entrego esa dialéctica fecal a los apologistas de la viveza, del alacraneo y de la cachada, que tanto infierno encubren. (Discusión 17-18, quoted at http://www.uiowa.edu/borges/bsol/bgay.shtml)

I am accustomed to this translation:


 * I will add another curious subject of insult: sodomy. In all countries, an indivisible reprobation falls upon the two practitioners of this unimaginable contact. "...both of them have committed an abomination...their blood shall be upon them,", says Leviticus (20:13, Kimg James version). Not so with Buenos Aires' tough guys, who virtually venerate the active partner, because he took advantage of his companion. I hand over this fecal dialectic to the apologists for the wise guy, to those staunch supporters of backbiting and leg-pulling, all of which conceal so much hell. –"Our Inadequacies", Borges, translated by Suzanne Jill Levine (prepared especially for) Borges: A Reader (subtitle) A Selection from the Writings of Jorge Luis Borges, edited by Emir Rodriguez Monegal & Alistair Reid, Dutton, p29.

Finally, as for La Intrusa...


 * Without my suspecting it, the hint for this story—perhaps the best I have ever written—came out of a chance conversation with my friend don Nicolás Paredes sometime back in the late twenties. Commenting on the decadence of tango lyrics, which even then went in for the "loud self-pity" among sentimental compadritos betrayed by their wenches, Paredes remarked dryly, "Any man who thinks five minutes stright about a woman is no man—he's a queer." –Borges, in the commentary on "The Intruder", ed/tr Di Giovanni, op. cit., p278

--munge 08:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Forgery
Why was this sentence removed: "On several occasions, especially early in his career, these mixtures sometimes crossed the line into the realm of hoax or literary forgery"? Pieces such as his imitations of Swedenborg were originally passed off as translations in his literary column in Crítica. For example, "El Teólogo" was originally published with the note "Lo anterior ... es obra de Manuel Swedenborg, eminente ingeniero y hombre de ciencia, que durante 27 años estuvo en comercio lúcido y familiar con el otro mundo." ("The preceding ... is the work of Emanuel Swedenborg, eminent engineer and man of science, who during 27 years was in lucid and familiar commerce with the other world.") - Jmabel | Talk 06:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Lacking response, I will restore (with the above as a citation). -Jmabel | Talk

Articles for deletion/Isidoro Acevedo
In the above AfD, this version of was decided to be merged into this article. The merging, of course, is left as an exercise to the reader. Sandstein 12:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. - Jmabel | Talk 07:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Political Bias
I think this article is skewed with regard to Borges' political conservatism. It only comes up when talking about why he got snubbed for the Nobel prize!? Come on...he did dedicate one of his works to Richard Nixon, I think maybe that deserves some mention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kangaru99 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Citation problems
The sentence "Kodama was denounced by the prestigious French publisher Gallimard, and by intellectuals such as Beatriz Sarlo, as an obstacle to the serious reading of Borges works," was followed by "(see articles in Le Nouvel Observateur, diario El País and diario La Nación among other international media)." (I've taken the liberty of fixing wikisyntax.)

The first of these links simply redirects to a page that does not mention Borges. The second leads to a subscription site, but at least provides an abstract, so I can turn this into a proper citation, and will. The third is also a subscription-only site (La Nación of Buenos Aires), so I cannot even turn this into a generally useful citation. Under the circumstances, I also suspect that the first link leads to a relevant article, but only for subscribers.

If someone who can access these can clarify what is being cited, then these citations can be restored to the article, but blind URLs to subscription-only sites are not useful citations. - Jmabel | Talk 05:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Changing "Other Works" to "Works"
The section title "Other Works" makes no sense, because the prior sections concentrate on biography rather than his works. The section should be retitled "Works". I also propose to rearrange it with only small revisions (at least for the present), bringing the description of the stories closer to the top. --munge 04:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Deletion
This paragraph:

"The importance of investigations into Borges's sexuality has traditionally been rejected by critics who favour a hermeneutic approach. A quote from Borges's "Pierre Menard, Author of The Quixote" seems to instruct against textual reference on such issues.  "There is no intellectual exercise," states the narrator, "which is not ultimately useless."  The key to understanding Borges's sexuality then, according to his own writings, would be to not look for it in his writings."

does not make sense to me. The quote has nothing to do with finding a writer's sexual identity hidden in their writings. The fact that every intellectual exercise is ultimately useless implies nothing like the conclusion of whoever put in this paragraph, I would contend.MrCheshire 19:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. One might as well say that Borges's defense of solipsism means that those of us writing about him don't really exist. Or we do, and he didn't. - Jmabel | Talk 18:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Influence
What (if anything) is the basis for the list (in the Infobox) of who influenced Borges, and whom he influenced? I'll stay largely out of arguing over the "influenced", but of the "influences":


 * It seems to me that the list is almost entirely focused on his prose. (Ditto for the "influenced".)
 * One of the few poets mentioned—Valéry—does not seem to me to have obviously influenced Borges's poetry, although (1) I am not anything like expert on Valéry and (2) Valéry is, of course, mentioned by Borges in "Pierre Menard".
 * Why bother to include Cervantes and Dante? It's hard to imagine a Spanish-language writer who is not influenced by Cervantes; it is also not obvious to me how Dante was a stronger influence on Borges than he is on Spanish-language literature in general. Conversely: if we are mentioning Cervantes and Dante, why not Shakespeare?
 * For that matter, no Argentines among the listed influences (or "influenced")? Bizarre. Not even José Hernández? or Leopoldo Lugones?
 * Also, what about Luis de Góngora? He would seem to me to be quite an influence on both Borges's poetry and prose.

- Jmabel | Talk 00:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have any experience with Borges' poetry to comment on whether Valéry has influenced him there, but having read a number of his non-fiction writings, I think his influence on Borges is indisputable. See "On Poe's Eureka", "Extraneous Remarks", "Eupalinos, or the Architect" for examples.


 * I agree, though that the list needs a clean up and expansion. Alexhard 23:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Rather minor wizard
In the section on international settings of his work, is there really any reason to mention the rather minor "The Wizard that Was Made to Wait" (little more than a shaggy dog story) for its setting in Spain? There are no details of place (just placenames, and not all of those in Spain); the story could as easily be set anywhere else. - Jmabel | Talk 00:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Writing style
I think a section on his writing style would be important, since well, he his an unusual writer. This article seem to be all about his life with little about what makes his writing unique. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobKohr (talk • contribs) 14:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

I agree, it seems strange how little mention there is about the style of his writting--Jsbauer (talk) 05:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Eyesight
Someone has put that Borges's eyesight failed due to "glaucoma". I always thought, and after re-reading Williamson's biography have confirmed, that Borges poor eyesight was from congenital myopia and made worse by cataracts and a detached retina suffered at the beach in La Plata in the 1950s. Am I wrong? Wuapinmon 20:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I found that he suffered from a hereditary predisposition to retinal detachment. The cataracts agravated the problem according to my source (Woodal, J: "The Man in Mirror of the Book, A Life of Luis Borges", pg xxx. Hodder and Stroughton 1996). I edited the page accordingly. Is it possible for retinal detachment to cause myopia? --Jsbauer (talk) 06:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Minor aclaration about the short story "Pierre Menard, autor del quijote"
"The most famous example of this is "Pierre Menard, author of the Quixote", which imagines a twentieth-century Frenchman who so immerses himself in the world of sixteenth-century Spain that he can sit down and create a large portion of Miguel de Cervantes' Don Quixote verbatim—-not by having memorized Cervantes' work, but as an "original" narrative of his own invention"

That's partially inaccurate: Pierre Menard originally tries that method but dismisses it as "too easy". He writes the Quixote not from the perspective of a sixteen century Spaniard but from his own perspective. That (according to the story) adds richness to Menard's Quixote. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.165.60.185 (talk) 23:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Fixed. Another inaccuracy comes from the fact that "This work, perhaps the most significant of our time, consists of the ninth and thirty-eighth chapters of the first part of Don Quixote and a fragment of chapter twenty-two." is hardly a "large portion". (fixed that too). While on the topic, it can be argued that Pierre Menard "predicts" reader response theories, maybe there should be something on that in the article. Alexhard 19:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Quite, though "anticipates" is more on the mark than "predicts". - Jmabel | Talk 05:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Infobox influences
Is there a way to cut down on the lists of those who influenced Borges and those influenced by him? Right now each list is the size of a house, and infoboxes are meant to provide a pithy summary of the article. I don't know much about Borges, but if he has certain chief influences who affected his work more than others, those might be the ones to list. Hobbesy3 06:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. First, find sources for the information. Then, create a well-written prose section (not sure where you'll put it, this article needs a lot of work on its formatting). Then list only the biggest influences and influencees in the infobox. Atropos 06:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Borges was a writer who was particularly interested in the role influence played in imaginative literature. He himself declared (ironically, no doubt) that he wasn't sure whether he was a great writer or not; the most he granted for himself is that he was a great reader. Borges was in fact an outstanding reader of texts: his works may be seen as a coming to terms with everything that came before him. That said, it is somewhat arbitrary to list a select few writers as his 'influences'; Borges was influenced by the whole of world literature, literally. Either one makes a comprehensive list of influences (by which I mean in the several dozens) or one limits the list to a handful. In my opinion the list should go altogether.--Rubbersoul20 20:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say. I don't see where you're disagreeing with anything I said. Could you explain yourself more clearly? I think I said pretty clearly that it should be limited to a handful, in your words. Atropos 07:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think five, ten at the extreme maximum should be listed as influenced by or influences upon an author. Clearly Borges has been a force in literature, with many who followed being influenced by him - and he was a prolific reader.  The same I am sure can be said by Shakespeare, as arguably he influenced every writer that came after him for example.  But the info box area should be more concise than it is.  Ryo 18:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

He "frequented" famous authors?
The article has a phrase that states that Borges "frequented" famous authors. I think of "frequenting" as visiting a location. Is it normal to speak of "frequenting" a person?

It would be interesting to have a link to an explanation of how the Argentinians form a child's name from the names of the parents and whether the shortened name in day-to-day use is usually selected by the parents or by the owner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.148.36.138 (talk) 16:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

List of who he influenced (and vice versa)
Obviously, these lists could be any length, but is Mark Z. Danielewski really notable enough to be listed? Also, Carlos Fuentes and Borges's close colleague Adolfo Bioy Casares appear to be the only Spanish-language authors on the list. This seems a bit odd. Surely there were many Spanish-language writers he influenced more than Fuentes.

Similarly, the list of his influences contains almost no Spanish-language writers. Cervantes, Alfonso Reyes, Bioy Casares again, and Macedonio Fernández. The last two were, respectively a collaborator and a mentor; of the four, only Macedonio Fernández was a poet (Cervantes wrote some poetry, but I doubt anyone is claiming that Cervantes poetry influenced Borges.) Are we really saying that Borges was that uninfluenced by Spanish-language poetry? What about José Hernández? What about Luis de Góngora?

For that matter, what (if anything) is the citable basis for these lists? - Jmabel | Talk 05:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

This continues to be a mess. The Bible as influence? Any more so than it influences most writers in the Spanish-speaking world? Similar remarks could be made about listing Homer as an influence: who didn't he influence?

Marcel Schwob? What's the basis for claiming him more than other symbolists (Paul Valéry is already in the list, what is the influence from Schwob distinct from Valéry)?

We still don't list José Hernández, Leopoldo Lugones, or Luis de Góngora. Why not?

As it stands, this list seems to be little more than an exercise in namedropping. There seems to be no basis for who is included or excluded, and without any statement on how someone influenced him, it seems pretty useless in any case.

(The list of who he influenced seems rather better, but is also utterly uncited.) - Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

No Nobel
There is a tag on "Though a contender since at least the late 1960s, Borges was never awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature" (and on several statements that follow). Surely we do not need overt citation for his lack of a Nobel Prize, so I assume that the request is to cite for his having been a contender, and for other related statements.

Most writings on the topic simply take it for granted that he was a contender. Two possibly useful (and certainly citable) online sources are:


 * Max Seitz, Borges: 20 años de eternidad, BBC Mundo, 14 June 2006.
 * James M. Markham Briton Wins the Nobel Literature Prize, The New York Times, October 7, 1983.

I would hope that whoever is currently actively working on this article can make use of these to cite for much of what is there. Other than that, it would be very helpful if someone would be more precise about exactly what they feel needs and lacks explicit citation. - Jmabel | Talk 06:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Other Works
Is it just me or is this section all over the place? What can we do to fix it? I feel like parts of it are redundant from other sections, that it has no clear goal, and that it's out of place in the article. I'll try and do a little. Wuapinmon (talk) 21:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

El Sur
Although "El sur" is now located in Ficciones, its inclusion didn't happen until 1956, according to the Borges Center's Bibliography. It was first published in 1953 in Sur.

La Nación. 2a secc. Bs.As., 08/02/1953.

BORGES, JORGE LUIS: "El sur". pág. 1. Ficc 1956, 1958, 1961, 1963, 1965, 1966, 1967, etc. - AntPer 1961 Wuapinmon (talk) 21:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * What's the context of why this is mentioned here? In any case, Sur was a periodical, Ficciones a book, so Ficciones would be its first publication in book form. - Jmabel | Talk 05:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The article previously said that the story "el sur" appeared in Ficciones in the 1940's. As it wasn't written until 1953, this would be impossible. I was justifying my reason for removing that information.Wuapinmon (talk) 21:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

New Stuff
I added some new sections and rejiggered a few others. Anyone who wants to toy with what I've added, please feel free.Wuapinmon (talk) 01:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Limits to Universalism
I think we should consider cutting this whole section, which has no citations. It looks as though someone added a comment about Borges not being completely universalist, and then people came along to mitigate the comment, and now the whole thing is a sort of self-negating distraction. Unless we can cite a source as saying "Borges' writing references every culture in the world in significant ways,' then I think it is completely OR to sit around arguing about how many refernces to Hindus he 'ought' to have included. Ethan Mitchell (talk) 15:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Arduino
I just found an exceedingly delightful easter egg inside a programming tool for the open source Arduino microprocessor. I tried to save a folder and was greated with the message


 * "How Very Borges of You.
 * you cannot save a sketch into a folder inside itself. That would go on forever"

thought it may be mentionable here, but probably not i guess... Thoughts? --Dylan2106 (talk) 20:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Original research?
the block about Borges and participation "like wikipedia" etc seems to be original research. Michaelrayw2 (talk) 05:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to delete this block. Not only is it original research, it is also a poor misreading of the text. The Library of Babel is nothing like the internet whatsoever. To say Borges foretold the internet is to take his ideas way out of context and draw conclusions out of coincidence. (Pez Dispens3r (talk) 02:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC))

Borges in Melbourne
I'm curious to see reference to Borges' visit to Melbourne. Borges has been a popular figure here, and the city aspires to status as a bookish capital. One of its most talented writers, Guy Rundle, wrote a piece for The Age newspaper about the influence of Melbourne on his fiction. As far as I saw, there was no qualification on this piece, nor afterwards. The story itself is like a mirror within a mirror of Borges. I'm in favour of it staying, even though it never happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dedepol (talk • contribs) 07:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm cutting the Limits to Universalism section.
Here it is/was:


 * To exaggerate Borges' universalism might be as much a mistake as the nationalists' questioning the validity of his Argentine identity. His writing was evidently more influenced by some literatures than others, reflecting in part the particular contents of his library his father had amassed, and the particular population composition of Argentina during his lifetime. A review of his work reveals far more influences from European and New World sources than Asian-Pacific or African ones.


 * Few references to Africans or African-Americans appear in his work; rare mentions include an idiosyncratic inventory of the latter-day effects of the slave trade in "The Dread Redeemer Lazarus Morrell" and a number of sympathetic references to a person of African descent killed by the fictional outlaw Martin Fierro. Indigenous Amerind sources are poorly represented, owing to the near-destruction of that population and culture in the Southern Cone region of South America; rare mentions include a captive Aztec priest, Tzinacán, in "The God's Script" and Amerinds who capture Argentines in "Story of the Warrior and the Captive" and "The Captive". "Lo Gauchesco" (Gaucho culture, translates as "that which is Gauchesque"), has, however, a big presence throughout his work. Gauchos are the cowboys of Argentina, the men who herded the cattle and were generally of mixed blood (Spanish and indigenous) and have always been associated with the wild, indigenous and unruly

elements of Argentine culture.


 * In contrast to his scholarship in Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist sources, Borges' view of Hinduism and Hindus seems to have been formed by peering through the sympathetic lens of the works of Rudyard Kipling, as in Borges' "The Approach to Al Mutasim".

Thank you. Ethan Mitchell (talk) 19:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Good job. Tomixdf (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Nobel Prize omission
The first paragraph is well written, and well-cited. However, the second paragraph is original research which the provided citation does not validate. It simply leads to a list of all Nobel Prize in Literature winners, the author has extrapolated the provided information to create this "distinguished company of Nobel Prize in Literature non-winners".

From WP:OR "Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source. It is important that references be cited in context and on topic."

The use of the phrase "distinguished company" when no adequate citation is provided also violates WP:AWW.

S. Luke 04:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's been a week and no sources have been provided, as such I'm removing the portion in question.


 * S. Luke 10:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I just noticed your comment, after I had reverted your change. You did not add a comment in the subject line, and more importantly you removed the photo, so your change was reverted. Please be more careful and explain text removal in the subject line in the future. Thank you. -- Alexf42 10:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Will do.
 * S. Luke 11:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. Please note that we have to keep an eye for this article as it is currently the selected article of the month (July 2008) at Portal:Argentina. -- Alexf42 12:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

But the sentiment removed is consensus opinion: that Borges is one of the great writers who never received the Prize. See, for example, Burton Feldman, The Nobel Prize; a History, p. 57, which lists Borges as one of a couple dozen "great ghosts" who never received one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Lovecraft
I added back Lovecraft under influences. Borges dedicated a story to Lovecraft, and his influence seems pretty clear in a number of works. Why would he be removed from the list?

Ericrosenfield (talk) 01:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

He wrote a Lovecraft PARODY. That does not mean that Lovecraft was an influence. If you can provide a clear reference for the statement that Lovecraft's influence is "pretty clear in a number of works" it can go back in. Otherwise it's just a personal opinion. Tomixdf (talk) 07:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Lots of people have commented on the connection between the two writers. And Borges' story wasn't a parody it was a pastiche. You know, because he liked the guy. http://www.templeofdagon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=946&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= http://books.google.com/books?id=jsxTenuOQKgC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&dq=borges+lovecraft&source=web&ots=T6mdUqtr25&sig=CbJre5I3WkO6sI-NvmekcNR1vfI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result http://explanadadeavente.blogspot.com/2007/02/borges-and-lovecraft.html

Besides which, I don't see the other influences having to be so rigorously defended, and the fact that only Lovecraft is singled out like this smacks of genre snobbery. I'm putting it back.

Eric Rosenfield (talk) 18:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Two of the above "references" you provide are internet forums and do not qualify *at all* as valid WP references. The book reference does not mention at all that Lovecraft is an "influence" in the work of Borges. It mentions that Borges used Lovecraft in one story to reflect on the influence of Poe on his (Borges) own work. I'm willing to be fair here and give you some time to find at least *one* decent reference, before I take it out again. About the other influences: easy enough to find references. The point is that we *need* a reference for Lovecraft as he is clearly an outlyer. Tomixdf (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Isn't it funny that Dante, Bierce, Wells and Schopenhauer don't need references to prove they influenced Borges, but when you introduce Lovecraft, suddenly that needs "decent references". How about this: you find references for all the authors listed as influences on the page, or delete all of them? Of course, that won't do, since Dante is a "proper author", and Lovecraft isn't. Pure bullshit. Elrith (talk) 11:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Fine, how about this: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/11/a_brief_survey_of_the_short_st_1.html

"Lovecraft's world, now known as the "Cthulhu Mythos" has gone on to be a common source for Jorge Luis Borges and a host of other, lesser authors." or this: http://www.contrasoma.com/writing/borgeslovecraft.htm "I had read many of Jorge Luis Borges’ short stories several years before discovering Lovecraft, let alone studying the latter seriously, and so the idea of Borges owing any debt to or admitting any influence from HPL was new and somewhat shocking to me when I first encountered it." http://www.answers.com/topic/jorge-luis-borges "He has borrowed a good number of stylistic traits from Edgar Allen Poe and Franz Kafka, and, according to some critics, he is likewise indebted to E. T. A. Hoffmann and Lovecraft." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erosenfield (talk • contribs) 15:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, these are not proper references in the Wikipedia sense: all internet blogs and forums, mostly of lovecraft fans. Borges himself calls Lovecraft in the afterword to "The book of sand": "an unwitting parodist of Poe". He was certainly aware of Lovecraft, but I've never seen any serious analysis of Borges' work in which Lovecraft was called a considerable "influence" on his work. Tomixdf (talk) 06:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Where are the proper references in the Wikipedia sense for the other authors cited as influences? You can't have two standards of sources for them. I see no references for Schopenhauer or Stevenson, or anybody else. Elrith (talk) 10:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * He doesn't just say "unwitting parodist of Poe," he says, "Life, which everyone knows is inscrutable, left me no peace until I perpetrated a posthumous story by H.P. Lovecraft, a writer whom I have always considered an unconscious parodist of Poe." That alone should make it clear that Lovecraft had an effect on his writing. Secondly, one of the links above is from the Guardian, which is a legitimate publication if ever there was one. Yes, it's a Guardian "blog", but so what? It's still written by a legitimate journalist, whatever you call it, and further, a legitimate journalist who was writing a brief survey of the short story. Eric Rosenfield (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, a blog is not a bona fide WP reference. If Lovecraft is such a big influence on Borges, then why can't you come up with a single article in a book or a literary journal? Also, Lovecraft is not even in the index of Penguin's "Selected non-fictions" by Borges. Poe, Whitman, Dante, Schopenhauer, etc. are there many, many times. Why don't we mention Lovecraft in a different context? He certainly deserves to be mentioned, but not as a major influence at the start of the article! Tomixdf (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Dante, at least, should be beyond question. Borges gave a lecture series on Dante that became the book Nueve Ensayos Dantescos. Borges's selection "A Personal Library" (multiply reproduced online, here's one place) included Wells' Time Machine and Invisible Man, one of rather few authors for whom multiple works are included. But, yes, on the whole, I'd be more comfortable if we could find solid academic secondary sources for a list of influences. I don't think Lovecraft was a major influence, but I would say that our personal opinions don't count for much. - Jmabel | Talk 16:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If I may be of help, in Borges, the diary of Adolfo Bioy Casares about his longtime friend, I think I can find proof that Lovecraft wasn't a major influence in Borges' work. Look at the name index of that work, freely available here. Borges, by Bioy Casares, is a major work of more than 1500 pages, full of anecdotes and conversations he had with his friend (a little bit like Life of Samuel Johnson, by James Boswell). You can see in that index that Dante, Leopoldo Lugones and R. L. Stevenson are mentioned a lot of times in their conversations. But Lovecraft was mentioned only twice in the 1500 pages, and I quote:

1). "Piñera says that Lovecraft is superior to Bradbury; that he's the Poe if these times. Borges will say to me later: "Lovecraft isn't superior to any of these two; he's very cheap (in English in the original)." (p. 172)

2). "We read, not without interest, a fantastic story, Lovecraft school, but still worse." (p. 1413)

So I'm pretty sure Lovecraft wasn't a major influence in his work. --PeterCantropus (talk) 00:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem is having a list of influences in the lead at all. It tells the reader nothing if they haven't read Borges, and little if they have. (And really, what's the source for Bierce? In one sense he influenced anybody who's written a short story since, but he resembles Borges only in concision.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:11, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Widely regarded as one of the most important writers of the 20th century, Borges was influenced by Dante Alighieri, Miguel de Cervantes, Franz Kafka, H. G. Wells, Rudyard Kipling, Ambrose Bierce, Arthur Schopenhauer, G. K. Chesterton, Leopoldo Lugones, and R. L. Stevenson.

Much of this is doubtful - many of these are authors Borges discussed, which is not the same thing; some of these don't, AFAIK, come up to that standard; and none of this is sourced. A section on Influences would be perfectly reasonable; whether any of it is important enough to mention in the lead is another question. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:15, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Forking Paths
In the list of works:


 * El jardín de senderos que se bifurcan (The Garden of Forking Paths) (1941; published in Ficciones, 1944)

Several problems:
 * 1) That's a silly link. Who is ever going to create an article with a title like that?
 * 2) Article The Garden of Forking Paths already exists; El jardín de senderos que se bifurcan is a redirect to it. Both refer to the short story of that name, not the collection.
 * 3) "published in Ficciones, 1944" is unclear and possibly misleading. I would think this should say something like "republished as part of Ficciones, 1944)

- Jmabel | Talk 06:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"Works"
Is this section of the article really useful in its current form? It appears to be a more or less complete listing of book-length Spanish-language publications (excluding republications as "collected works"), but almost half of the listed books are reasonably arbitrary collections of stories or essays that happened to be written in a given period: that is, they are not particularly "works" in their own right. Most of his most notable works, in my view, would be individual short stories, essays, or poems. For book-length publications, we have quite a comprehensive (and better organized) bibliography of Jorge Luis Borges (which links to the extremely comprehensive bibliographies maintained by the Borges Center).

Also: is there really much point to linking the Spanish-language titles? Even if we were to create articles on each of these books - most of which are too heterogeneous to be natural article subjects - the bulk of these would presumably get English-language titles (those of their English-language re-issues). - Jmabel | Talk 07:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)