Talk:Joschka Fischer

Picture
I just removed the link to the picture Joschka_Fischer.jpg, because despite several attempts to resize it, it was filling the full screen, and made reading the page quite difficult. If there's someone who can figure out what happened, please help with this one.--217.230.129.24 (talk) 21:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Honorary degree

 * He has an Dr h.c. from the University of Haifa.


 * What is a Dr h.c.? -- Viajero 22:51, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * A doctorate honoris causa, a PhD title given not for a scientific work, but as an act of honour. -- till we *) 23:06, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * I see. I guess you mean an honorary degree. Perhaps we could change it to that? I don't believe that Latin abbreviation is common in English. Perhaps it is in German?... -- Viajero 13:21, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is. -- 217.225.208.51 18:40, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
 * And "h.c." is reasonably common in some English-speaking environmens, I believe--e.g., Scotland 66.215.215.246 (talk) 16:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)garychartier

Wives
Do we have his wives' last names? RickK 04:03, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * At the moment I have only Claudia Bohn and Nicola Leske. --Wik 04:08, Sep 21, 2003 (UTC)


 * Edeltraut Fischer, Inge, last name unknown, Claudia Bohn and Nicola Leske are correct. Madayar, --80.171.188.153 21:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * "Claudia Bohn" is not the correct spelling of her name. Her name is Claudia Bohm. I just corrected the article. --213.61.190.207 11:10, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Inge Vogel see: http://www.google.de/imgres?hl=de&client=firefox-a&hs=gtH&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1920&bih=913&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnso&tbnid=cfsLtz4yFfRQiM:&imgrefurl=http://www.abendzeitung-muenchen.de/gallery.promi-hochzeiten-aretha-franklin-traut-sich-zum-dritten-mal-param~19~18~0~35~false.b86eb331-8ed0-4423-b5be-1c947eb4fb94.html&imgurl=http://www.abendzeitung-muenchen.de/media.media.ce3bdd1b-e3d0-40e8-a862-dccaaa401bc2.normalized.jpeg&w=481&h=510&ei=kZhIUNyQEM7DtAan64HYCg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=251&sig=113485057196694770483&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=141&start=0&ndsp=55&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:73&tx=102&ty=100 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.81.154.130 (talk) 12:40, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Marathon
would it be interesting enought for inclusion that he finished the New York Marathon 1999 in 3h55min using his second name for security reasons (1999 MARTIN FISCHER  M50  9990  	 8916  	3:56:13  3:55:07)

Page title
Why is this page suddenly named "Joseph Martin Fischer"? Nobody knows Joschka Fischer by this name, it would be as gruesome as a William Clinton article (which in fact is a redirect to Bill Clinton). Could it be changed back, please? -- till we *) 17:45, 6 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Nephelin, I think the vast majority of English speakers refer to him as Joschka Fischer. Please read Naming conventions (common names), and unless "Joschka" is BPOV, revert your changes. - Jeandré, 2004-05-06t23:10z


 * An anonymous user is trying to undo the move, but does it by copy-and-paste. Despite several attempts to make him discuss the topic before repeating the move he continues with it. I have protected the page to finally force him to go here, hopefully noone will count this as sysop abuse as I reverted his wrong moves several time before already. I hope the protection can be short time. andy 11:58, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Note that this user now knows how to move pages, since he moved around my user page several times. Dear anonymous, I don't care where this article should be, but you don't gain anything by vandalism attacks. andy 12:32, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Can we unprotect this page, and leave the redirect page protected, to foil the anon? john 06:19, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Joschka really is a nickname. It's so common that even the media or members of other parties never call him Joseph. But it's his official name. So I guess you can use it. Joschka Fischer redirects to this site, so I guess it's a-ok. Madayar, --80.171.188.153 21:29, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

NPOV
Many comments sound suspiscious, such as the book-stealing one (Copyied from article by me. -83.129.6.207 02:37, 19 September 2005 (UTC)))
 * Honestly, it's going to take more than that to lodge a real NPOV Compalaint. User:Torbjorn 22 September, 2005

POV tag
This article is in horrible shape! It is formulated in an incredible suggestive manner, and in some cases I doubt whether the facts are accurate. This needs some serious attention. The Minist  e   r of War   (Peace) 00:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article could use cleanups and definetly more information. However I don't quite follow how is it POV? Which parts in specific are so suggestive? Gryffindor  14:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Translation?
From the "Green politician" bit:

"With respect, sir, you are an asshole" (german: "Mit Verlaub, Herr Präsident, Sie sind ein Arschloch.").

I don't know German that well, but shouldn't "sir" be something like "Mr. President"? 68.39.174.238 06:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right. --Abe Lincoln 07:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that "Mr. President" is an adequate translation, for it disregards the situational context. As far as I know "Mr. President", used in the U.S. Congress, would always refer to the "President of the United States"; Mr. Stücklen, whom Fischer addressed, was "Bundestagspräsident", which is equivalent to the "Speaker of the House", who is never addressed as "Mr./Mrs. President". Our Anglo-American friends should know better than me how that person is addressed formally. "Mr./Madam Speaker"?


 * It shouldn't be "with respect" (where is "Respekt"?). It is "with your permission" and this is a then heavily-publicized rhetoric trick. He supposes the the permission of the president to be insulted ;). --Ben T/C 12:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * With respect: though 'Verlaub' is directly related to 'Erlaubnis = permission' the phrase itself ought to be translated: with respect. - Please reconsider your change! --Oldnag85 (talk) 20:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "With all due respect, Mr Speaker, but you are" etc.--217.251.95.130 (talk) 12:20, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

POV Weblinks
The external links following the sentence "The following sources reflect the views of U.S. adversaries of Fischer and his policies, especially Germany's decision not to participate in the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq." are extremly POV, they do not show opinions of the other side and the Paul Berman one is not even fact-based (quote: "Saddam and the terrible weapons he has") yeah, Saddam and his WMDs... -- Imladros 22:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Mit Verlaub - is an oldfashioned German phrase when a subaltern adresses a superior. It is the request to be allowed to SPEAK not to insult somebody. Maris Haag.

You find this pre fix to a speech in old transcripts of conversations of Friedrich der Grosse with peasants in the countryside, when adressed by the King before answering without exception the peasants use " mit Verlaub " starting the answer.

Maris Haag —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.240.252.5 (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Foreign Minister
I find it interesting that as a high school drop-out and former unskilled worker he made it to the presidency of the United Nations Security Council and chaired the session on 5th Feb 2003 on Irak where Colin Powell gave his now infamous presentation about the Irak's WMDs. http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/PRO/N03/236/00/PDF/N0323600.pdf?OpenElement

High school drop-out
Fischer shouldn't really be called a high school drop-out. I am, however, at a loss to find an Anglo-American term that would be adequate. The problem is that - at least in the 1960ies - the German school system was so vastly different from the American. The fundamental difference was that there were four different types of schools, of which only the first four classes of one were attended by all students of the age group. That was the so-called "Volksschule" (i. e. "people's school"). Every pupil had to go there. Those who failed there would be transferred to the "Hilfsschule" or "Sonderschule", a type of school for pupils with learning deficits. An exam at the end of the fourth grade would decide about the future school career. The majority of pupils with average exam results would go on to the 5 higher classes of the "Volksschule". The Volksschul-diploma would enable you to start being trained as labourer, vendor, craftsman etc. Those who were more successful in the exams would be directed to the "Mittelschule" (or "Realschule"), which they would attend 5 or 6 years. The diploma would enable them to become clerks in banks, insurance companies, the civil service, or skilled workers. In the late 1960ies a number of special schools were created that could be attended after "Mittelschule" in order to provide a qualification similar to that of the "Gymnasium". Just about 10 per cent of the 4th-graders would be sent to the "Gymnasium" (or: "Oberschule", therefore usually wrongly equated with the American "high school"). This they would have to attend 9 years. So, normally, you would be at least 19 when you graduated from "Gymnasium". 50-70 per cent of the graduates from "Gymnasium" would enter a university (mind you, there were no colleges in Germany; only universities were considered to provide a truly academic education). - You could also leave "Gymnasium" after 6 years (at the age of 16 or 17); you would then have a qualification that equalled that of graduation from "Mittelschule" (Realschule) but was usually respected more, especially since at "Gymnasium" learning at least two foreign languages was obligatory (English/French or English/Latin in the so-called "mathematical branch", English, French and Latin in the so-called "linguistic" branch), while in "Mittelschule" you learned only English and possibly very little French. So, when Fischer left "Gymnasium" at 17, he had the second highest qualification the German school system offered, and I think it is fair to assume that his education was at least as good as that of the top third of the graduates from average American high schools (I believe I know what I'm taling about since I graduated from a well-respected American high school in Dearborn as well as from the German "Gymnasium"). Assuming that he had chosen the linguistic branch of "Gymnasium" he would have studied English for 6 years(which certainly partly accounts for his fluency in English), French and Latin for at least 4 years. In mathematics he would have advanced to trigonometry, calculus and that sort of stuff, he would have had to attend classes for several years in chemistry, physics, geography, biology, politics, history, world religions or philosophy, art and music (all obligatory courses). If am not completely mistaken, I believe that this educational profile is not exactly what you associate with the concept of a "high school drop-out". Fischer's school career is, by the way, typical of a large number of students of his generation: at the age of 16/17, at the height of puberty, many decided that they were sick and tired of "Gymnasium", the constant studying (while their peers who had finished "Volksschule" or "Mittelschule" were already making money and driving motorcycles), pressure and usually quite authoritarian teachers, and especially if there was no academic tradition in the family the parents, too, felt that there was no need to have their child graduate from "Gymnasium" and go to university. If you left "Gymnasium" at that stage you were in possession of the so-called "Mittlere Reife", something like an intermediate certificate of higher education, and you were be no means stigmatized as as "drop-out". In order to understand better in what educational stratum you would have to localize Fischer you must also be aware that in the 1960ies only about 9-10 per cent of his age group would go to a university; to go to a "Gymnasium" was elitarian, and to study at a university even more so. All of what I've tried to explain is not meant to diminish Fischer's intellectual achievement; he is obviously very gifted, his brain and energy have enabled him to absorb and admirable amount of knowledge and acquire all sorts of skills in the autodidactic way. It seems obvious to me that, if puberty and perhaps a lack of parental support had not kept him from graduating and studying at a university, he would have been a successful, probably even brilliant university student - which would not necessarily have started him on an even more brilliant political career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.91.129.2 (talk) 12:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

new photo
a new photograph of Fischer was just added to Wikimedia Commons as part of the German Federation's archives (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F065084-0014,_Bonn,_Pressekonferenz_der_Grünen,_Bundestagswahl.jpg). This photo was taken in 1983, so it is much more relevant to the Green Politician section than the photo with Colin Powell, and should replace that one. Any objections?--Pokeronskis (talk) 06:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

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