Talk:Josef Tal

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- KenWalker | Talk 07:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 21:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

COI
The artice has been heavily edited & expanded by Tal's son, Etan Tal, which is obviously a major WP:COI violation. The full list of compositions seem rather excessive and over power the article..perhaps they should be a standalone article - created by someone rather less close to the subject.78.86.25.78 (talk) 11:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The article's format is similar to other articles on similar topics (see Arnold Schoenberg for example, or John Cage - which is split). If you think that "the list of compositions is rather excessive", you may discuss this issue with those in charge of WikiProject Biography, or with Composers WikiProject or with WikiProject Israel whose editors did not share your opinion (so far). Regretfully (or not), I have no right to delete any of the composer’s works only to comply with your opinion.
 * To the best of my knowledge the article is thorough and accurate and it was scrutinized by many Wikipedians. It has been rated as B-Class on the (three) projects' quality scale, and translated to different languages by Wikipedians with whom I have no personal acquaintance - none of those felt that there had been any bias in the text.
 * I always sign my contributions (either texts, editing or photographs) with my full real name. I do not disguise under a pseudonym or an IP number. The mere fact that I "heavily edited" the article, or that I am Tal’s son, does not necessarily entail any bias but rather a thorough acquaintance with the material.
 * If you have a specific claim, or if you can offer any confirmation for your allegation, please specify it and allow other competent and objective contributors to address it. Otherwise I would ask you to remove the template since it fallaciously insinuates biased editing (and intentional violation of Wikipedia's rules) on my part.
 * Etan Tal - Josef Tal's son. Etan Tal (talk) 19:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:COI I believe that you are editing this article to promote your father. regards 78.86.25.78 (talk) 03:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I did some more reading on the guidelines and it seems that that the relevant place to discuss conflict of interest issues is not the Biography, Israel or Composers wikiprojects but a specific noticeboard WP:COIN. I know very little about the inner workings of wikipedia, it just struck me as wrong that somebodys son gets to write him up on wikipedia. If you open a topic there about this I'll happily defer to whatever the experts say. The compositions matter is really that it looks cluttered and contains too much detail in that table format, the Schoenberg or Cage articles contain nothing similar. Perhaps there are style guidelines about thse matters as per WP:MOS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.25.78 (talk) 04:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear 78.86.25.78,
 * Thanks for making your claim a bit clearer. I will try to answer your specific points:
 * 1.	"I believe that you are editing this article to promote your father" – In editing this article I strive to promote KNOWLEDGE. Evidently "promoting" any person mentioned in the article is an unavoidable by-product.
 * 2.	" it just struck me as wrong that somebodys son gets to write him up on Wikipedia" – Unless you prove specific bias on my part, there is no reason not to let me edit ANYTHING which contributes to knowledge. There is no justification whatsoever for such discrimination. Indeed, being a relative of an article's subject necessitates particular self discipline and cautious editing to avoid subjective bias. I trust that I have indeed accomplished this goal.
 * 3.	" The compositions matter is really that it looks cluttered and contains too much detail in that table format, the Schoenberg or Cage articles contain nothing similar" – this claim refers to two topics:
 * a.	The contents: I cited the Schoenberg and Cage articles to show examples of lists of two "modern" composers. The length of ANY list should not be a factor for assessing its content quality (provided it does not interfere with readability of article)
 * b.	The format: As far as I know there are no guidelines which prevent any list to be edited as a table. I agree that it is a matter of subjective taste, but I found that it is a fine solution to deliver the information in an orderly readable way. Moreover, the updated information is not readily available and accessible anywhere else. I advise you to have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Schubert#How_Schubert.27s_compositions_are_listed (see Works for the stage table). The table there, though title-rolling and even more detailed than mine, is a good example.


 * My father passed away about a year ago. I am the only relative still capable of writing a Wikipedia article about him – not because I have special talents, but because I happen to be the only one who has most of the relevant information. To prove this statement I would ask you to compare the present article, with the 10:45, 25 May 2008 version (the last version before my first editing) - I trust you’ll agree there is a significant difference…


 * It is a natural and understandable reaction to suspect COI in articles submitted to the Wikipedia, and I trust your attitude originates from true caring. I appreciate your alertness and welcome such wherever applicable. It is though our duty as editors to balance this sort of criticism carefully and apply COI templates only when COI claim has a factual basis. Otherwise we might discourage creative contributors instead of encouraging them. As I have said before, I welcome any constructive correction, addition or deletion in the article as long as it is based on true facts. Your COI template does not reflect a true fact. Etan Tal (talk) 11:31, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I was brought to this from the notice left at the conflict of interest noticeboard. While the conflict of interest is clear in this case, Etan has acknowledged the COI at his user page as the guidelines suggest. While there was a tag left on the page saying that cleanup may be needed because an editor has a conflict of interest, no specific complaints regarding neutral point of view violations have been raised, or any other significant cleanup. The only complaint I see is a minor one regarding formatting, which wouldn't be influenced by the COI in any way. I've personally looked over the article and it doesn't seem to be promotional, so I've removed the COI tag. --  At am a  頭 17:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * While there is no obvious indication (to me) of conflict of interest, the first sentence of "Biography" is very clearly a peacock phrase, and should be cited to neutral reliable sources that clearly document the scope of acceptance of the claim. (This makes me wonder what other editors thought when they read it.) I'll also note that some of the endnotes are not in fact citations, and some that are refer to materials with clearly limited availability.  This makes the article appear to be better-cited than it actually is. (This article was flagged for review at the Composers project -- I will be reviewing it in more detail.)  Magic ♪piano 13:54, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

composer project review
I've reviewed this article on behalf of the Composers project. While the article is B class, I find it has issues, especially in the musical commentary, with balance and sourcing (and the above-mentioned peacock term). My detailed review is on the comments page.  Magic ♪piano 14:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Josef Tal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131023000346/http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/06990f45-2eb8-49d7-a881-d78696f689f6.pdf to http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/06990f45-2eb8-49d7-a881-d78696f689f6.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090731141823/http://www.imi.org.il/site/ to http://www.imi.org.il/site/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110721134532/http://www.jewish-music.huji.ac.il/thesaurus761f.html?cat=9&in=9&id=687&act=view to http://www.jewish-music.huji.ac.il/thesaurus761f.html?cat=9&in=9&id=687&act=view
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131022034528/http://www.jerusalem.muni.il/jer_main/TopSiteJeru.asp?newstr=3&src=%2Fjer_sys%2Fpublish%2FHtmlFiles%2F1030%2Fresults_pub_id%3D12594.html&cont=895 to http://www.jerusalem.muni.il/jer_main/TopSiteJeru.asp?newstr=3&src=%2Fjer_sys%2Fpublish%2FHtmlFiles%2F1030%2Fresults_pub_id%3D12594.html&cont=895
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131023000457/http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/84b87cba-186a-4d96-b246-702ff11c6c47.pdf to http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/84b87cba-186a-4d96-b246-702ff11c6c47.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716135533/http://www.imi.org.il/Instrumentations.aspx?ComposerID=600f2e7f-ba9e-44da-82f7-d14635bb41e6 to http://www.imi.org.il/Instrumentations.aspx?ComposerID=600f2e7f-ba9e-44da-82f7-d14635bb41e6

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

1. *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131023000346/http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/06990f45-2eb8-49d7-a881-d78696f689f6.pdf to http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/06990f45-2eb8-49d7-a881-d78696f689f6.pdf - original link is OK
 * needhelp=<your help request

2. *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090731141823/http://www.imi.org.il/site/ to http://www.imi.org.il/site/ - please update link to http://imi.org.il/cat1.php

3.*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110721134532/http://www.jewish-music.huji.ac.il/thesaurus761f.html?cat=9&in=9&id=687&act=view to http://www.jewish-music.huji.ac.il/thesaurus761f.html?cat=9&in=9&id=687&act=view - original link is OK

4. Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131022034528/http://www.jerusalem.muni.il/jer_main/TopSiteJeru.asp?newstr=3&src=%2Fjer_sys%2Fpublish%2FHtmlFiles%2F1030%2Fresults_pub_id%3D12594.html&cont=895 to http://www.jerusalem.muni.il/jer_main/TopSiteJeru.asp?newstr=3&src=%2Fjer_sys%2Fpublish%2FHtmlFiles%2F1030%2Fresults_pub_id%3D12594.html&cont=895 - original link is OK

5. Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131023000457/http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/84b87cba-186a-4d96-b246-702ff11c6c47.pdf to http://www.imi.org.il/UploadedFiles/84b87cba-186a-4d96-b246-702ff11c6c47.pdf  - original link is OK

6. Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716135533/http://www.imi.org.il/Instrumentations.aspx?ComposerID=600f2e7f-ba9e-44da-82f7-d14635bb41e6 to http://www.imi.org.il/Instrumentations.aspx?ComposerID=600f2e7f-ba9e-44da-82f7-d14635bb41e6 - please update link to http://imi.org.il/composer_page_table.php?case=search&cid=97

>

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Josef Tal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928210855/http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/413.html to http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/413.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928023842/http://www.imi.org.il/Composer.aspx?id=600f2e7f-ba9e-44da-82f7-d14635bb41e6 to http://www.imi.org.il/Composer.aspx?id=600f2e7f-ba9e-44da-82f7-d14635bb41e6
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090104025216/http://claudet.club.fr/ExilVarsovie/Tal/TalDiscographie.html to http://claudet.club.fr/ExilVarsovie/Tal/TalDiscographie.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928210855/http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/413.html to http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/413.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:47, 30 November 2017 (UTC)