Talk:Joseph-Louis Lagrange/Archive 2

Translation
This is the Googletranslation of the two last comments, in Italian.

The baptismal name as written in the act [edit] The mathematician Joseph-Louis Lagrange was baptized five days after his birth in the Church dedicated to St. Eusebius and Philip Blacks in Turin.

In the act of baptism transcribed in the records of the Church of St. Philip and currently deposited at the Parish of St. Thomas in Via Pietro Micca, you can see:

Lagrangia Joseph Lodovico, son of Mr. Giuseppe Francesco Lodovico and Teresa Grosso giugali Lagrangia, born on January the twenty-five millesettecentotrentasei, was baptized on 30 gennajo below. Godfather was Mr. Carlo Lagrangia and Godmother ill.ma the Countess Anna Catherine Rebuffi di Traves Firm. Father Carlo Boscallis of the Congregation of the Oratory of St. Eusebip. Lagrange was called "Luigi" as his great-grandfather in the previous century (1651) had left the France of Louis XIV (while he was regent Anna Maria Maurizia Habsburg) and settled in Turin, in the service of Charles Emmanuel II of Savoy. - Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgvongoeden (talk • contribs) 23:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Origins of the family of the mathematician Joseph-Louis Lagrange [edit] The De La Grange Tournier came from Touraine in France, and according to research carried out by French historians were bound by ties of kinship with the family Descartes.

The family of Joseph Lagrangia Ludovico (Louis) boasted noble origin. Among the ancestors are mentioned:

Louise Marie de la Grange d'Arquien (June 28, 1638 - November 11, 1728) married Francois Gaston Count of Chabris and second son of Hyppolithe de Bethune, and lady of the Court of the Queen of France Ana María Mauricia d'Absbugo Anne Marie Habsbourg (wife of Louis XIII and mother of Louis XIV) and Marie Casimire Louise de la Grange d'Arquien Louise's younger sister,, crowned Queen of Poland in Krakow in 1676. (He was married to King John III of Poland).

The Luigi's great-grandfather was, Louis de La Grange (1634-1675), captain of cavalry of the Army of Louis XIV, left France to go to the service of Charles Emmanuel II of Savoy.

As a sign of gratitude for having accomplished brilliantly delicate tasks that were entrusted to Charles Emmanuel II, Louis de La Grange was granted by the Sovereign of Savoy, to marry the maid Conti, a young noble Roman family (Counts Signs and Valmontone) which belonged to Michelangelo Conti (Pope Innocent XIII 1721-1724).

The grandfather of the mathematician Louis Lagrange, Charles de La Grange (n.Torino 1663 - m. In Turin 1733), like his father, he enjoyed the esteem and favor of the Sovereign Savoy which allowed him to join in marriage with the daughter of Cristina Bormiolo Giambattista Bormiolo Count of Pino Torinese and Vercelli. In 1697, Victor Amadeus II, the future king of Sicily, named him "Treasurer of the Superintendency and the Factories and Fortifications

Origini della famiglia del matematico Joseph-Louis Lagrange
I De La Grange Tournier provenivano dalla Turenna in Francia e, secondo ricerche effettuate dagli storici francesi, erano legati da vincoli di parentela con la famiglia Descartes.

La famiglia di Giuseppe Ludovico Lagrangia (Luigi) vantava un’origine nobile. Tra gli avi si ricordano:

Luise Marie De La Grange d’Arquien (28 giugno 1638 – 11 novembre 1728) sposa di Francois Gaston Conte di Chabris e secondogenito di Hyppolithe de Béthune, e dama di Corte della Regina di Francia Anna Maria Maurizia d’Asburgo ( moglie di Luigi XIII e madre di Luigi XIV) e Marie Casimire Louise De La Grange d’Arquien, sorella minore di Luise, incoronata a Cracovia Regina di Polonia nel 1676. (Aveva sposato Re Giovanni III di Polonia).

Il bisavolo di Luigi Lagrange, Louis De La Grange (1634-1675), capitano di cavalleria delle Armate di S.M. Luigi XIV, lasciò la Francia per passare al servizio di Carlo Emanuele II di Savoia.

Come segno di riconoscenza per aver portato a termine brillantemente delicati incarichi che gli erano stati affidati da Carlo Emanuele II, a Louis De La Grange venne concesso, da parte del Sovrano Sabaudo, di sposare la damigella Conti, una giovane nobile della famiglia romana (Conti di Segni e Valmontone) alla quale appartenne anche Michelangelo Conti (Papa Innocenzo XIII dal 1721 al 1724 ).

Il nonno del matematico Luigi Lagrange, Charles De La Grange (n.Torino 1663 – m. a Torino 1733), come suo padre, godette della stima e dei favori del Sovrano Sabaudo che gli consentì di unirsi in matrimonio con Cristina Bormiolo figlia di Giambattista Bormiolo Conte di Pino Torinese e di Vercelli. Nel 1697, Vittorio Amedeo II, futuro Re di Sicilia, lo nominò “Tesoriere della Intendenza e delle Fabbriche e Fortificazioni”. Mgvongoeden (talk) 00:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Lagrange's nationality
Is it correct to say that Lagrange was italian-born? Italy did come into existence until half a century after Lagrange's death. At the time of Lagrange's birth, Turin was a part of the Kingdom of Sardinia ruled by the House of Savoy. The Kingdom of Sardinia had a life of over 500 years. The County/Duchy of Savoy had a life of over 700 years. Italy has been in existence less than 150 years. Imposing national identification of our time on historical persons seems rather parochial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Visoot (talk • contribs) 11:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * So there were no Germans before 1871? Someone has to fix the page of Martin Luther (along with hundreds of others)
 * I think that the guy above makes some confusion between the concepts of nationality and citizenship :-) As well pointed out above, the creation of the national states of Italy and Germany took place mainly because there were the Italian and German Nations. And the birth of these nations happened in both cases almost thousand years before the birth of the respective states. Alex2006 (talk) 14:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * A way to avoid partisan discussions, and favor neutral descriptions, would be to say that Lagrange was born in Torino, in the historic Duchy of Savoya, part of present day Italy. --Auró (talk) 21:46, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This solution would give us information about its birthplace (citizenship), but not about his nationality. And again, the Italian nation was born 1,000 years before the Italian state. Otherwise I suggest to go to the articles about Michelangelo, Dante, Titian and write under thier nationality Tuscan, Florentine, or Venetian: then let's see what happens... The best way to avoid partisan discussion is to remain factual in the discussion. I know that this is a difficult task, but is not impossible. Anyway, I think that Italian-born, French mathematician is the best possible description for Lagrange. Alex2006 (talk) 05:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Reading the article Italians indicates that indeed there is consensus about the existence of the nation prior to the unification. I will link to this article.--Auró (talk) 21:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for acknowledging the existence of our nation :-) Alex2006 (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is beside the point. A nationality is not an ethnicity, and the question of how an "ethnic Italian" should be defined is to be treated at Italians. In the 1730s, you were a subject, in this case to the House of Savoy. Only with the French Revolution did the notion of "nationality" even arise, and from that time, it is needless to say, Lagrange was a citizen of the French Republic.
 * The emergence of an Italian, yes and a German, "ethnic group", is a result of the 19th century. These divisions, now accepted matter-of-factly, are in fact a product of the Napoleonic Wars. For the population of the Occitania/Savoy/Piedmont area, it was a tossup whether they would end up "French", "Italian" or "Swiss", and tossup was performed in 1815, after Lagrange's death. Lagrange's dialect, if he had had any, would have been "Gallo-Italian". The name "Gallo-Italian" says it all. But he was a member of the upper classes, and an enlightenment scholar, so he didn't have any dialect, let alone any tribal affiliations etc.
 * If you have any references on what percentage of his genetic ancestors were native to Piemont, by all means feel free to break it for to us. --dab (𒁳) 13:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * In 19th century the Italian state was born, not the Italian nation, which is about 1000 years older: this was born in the middle ages, together with the language, "il volgare". Dante was Italian, Michelangelo Italian, etc. Of course Lagrange was a subject of the king of Sardinia, but an Italian one (since he was not a Savoyard, and Piedmont was - as is - fully part of the Italian nation), because his mother-tongue was Italian (or a piedmontese idiom). You can read the first volume of the "Storia d'Italia" of Einaudi ("i caratteri originali") about this, or also whatever primary school italian book. If you don't agree, please go first to the Dante or Michelangelo articles, and change their ethnicity according to your theory: then you will meet a lot of other people that will explain it this concept. About Lagrange - it is needles to say - he got the french citizenship when he signed the senatoconsulte of the annexation of his homeland - Piedmont - to the French Empire: it was September 11, 1802 (well after the French revolution). Moreover, in wikipedia there is a guideline, WP:OPENPARA, which specify the nationality to be mentioned in the lead. In this case it is clear, since Lagrange was notable when he left Turin for Berlin. Alex2006 (talk) 13:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * La Grange was French, he was born Italian, and later became French
 * Please, see this link (in French): http://images.math.cnrs.fr/Les-lieux-de-Joseph-Louis-Lagrange.html
 * The link is from cnrs, a prestigious scientific center. According to what I understood, he was born Piemontan, from a French descent family (the original name "La Grange" became "La Grangia"), but became French during French Revolution (and turned back his name to La Grange, and francized his name in Joseph-Louis instead of Giuseppe Luigi. He also became "Comte de l'Empire" and is French Italian according to this site, I think you need to be French or made French to be "comte de l'Empire": http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/327871/Joseph-Louis-Lagrange-comte-de-lEmpire


 * Comte de l'Empire, explanations here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility_of_the_First_French_Empire


 * Once again: a) Please read the article, all the article, not just the first rows, so you will avoid to repeat here things which are already reported there; b) Please read what I wrote above; c) Please read WP:OPENPARA. According to this guideline (which, as such, can be discussed at its own discussion page but, as long as it exists, can be enforced by administrators), in the opening paragraphs, there is no place for double nationality or citizenship: it must be used that owned by the subject when he became notable: it Lagrange`s case, the Italian one. Using the same criterion for other famous Italian born people, Enrico Fermi is cited in the opening paragraph as being Italian, Riccardo Giacconi as American, Richard Rogers as British. A last note : Using the bold style on a Wikipedia talk page is considered a sign of impertinence. Alex2006 (talk) 10:13, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

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Lagrange's error bound
Does anyone know what is lagrange's error bound?
 * See Taylor's theorem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.21.169 (talk) 11:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Band wagon
We are told that Lagrange was one of the Enlightenment Era. All his maths could have been produced at any time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.21.169 (talk) 12:03, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Lagranges's work on number theory started with Diophantus, who can't be credited to the Enlightenment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.21.169 (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2018 (UTC)