Talk:Joseph Crews

Scalawag
The term has a long history as pejorative. It's stange to me that Radical Republican was removed. Like carpetbagger, it is in no way a neutral term. I am not opposed to it being used but it should be in the context of Southerners labelinf him that way in a derogatory fashion. FloridaArmy (talk) 01:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Radical Republican" isn't in any of the sources. "One of the most radical members of the state legislature" doesn't mean the same thing. Again, you cannot tag "scalawag" in that way unless it's as an editorial note. Or you can just remove the whole word; but it's attributed now. Hey, FloridaArmy, I spend hours turning that one sentence of yours into an acceptable article; your nitpicking, when all I'm doing is representing the sources, is not helping. Find more sources if you have more questions. Drmies (talk) 02:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you'd like I cam unwatch the article. I don't think trying to get it right is nitpicking. It's tricky and super partisan history. As is a lot of American history. Was he corrupt? A valiant civil rights leader? This seems to me pretty basic stuff. Lets3 reflect what the sources then and now say in proper context. Believe it or not I had him as a short stub for a reason. Things get complicated. Sourcing these entries is tricky. Who's accounts are accurate? Was this guy a slave trader and profiteer? Corrupt? A heroic Civil Rights leader? A lot we don't know. How long was he in South Carolina? What was he up to during the war? Religion amd religious motivation? Anyway, like I said, if you want me to unwatch just let me know. FloridaArmy (talk) 02:19, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't get it, FloridaArmy. You are asking for context and facts that are not provided in the sources that you and I found. No, "sourcing these entries" is not all that tricky, and we should not sit here and decide whose account is accurate. Ginsberg is a historian and his book is published by a good press; doubting that accuracy should not be done based on some blog post you found somewhere that may mention something said by his brother or whatever. If you want to "try and get it right" with the questions you are asking, Wikipedia is not the right venue. Drmies (talk) 02:53, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * We exercise editorial discretion all the time. Should do anyway. I'm unwatching. You can do what you like with this entry. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Weighing in... I think "scalawag" in the article as it is now is fine, (not in the lead and attributed with a quote) but it should not be used loosely as it is a perjorative. Earlier placement and use of the word had the article read as biased. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 17:53, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Military leader
Another issue is the use of the term military. Traditionally this would associate him with the U.S. Military. Did he serve in the American Civil War? Was his role as a militia leader in a military context? What military? Freedmen's Bureau? The distribution of Arms is pretty radical for its time and I haven't seen that elsewhere in an official capacity. Some clarification of who he was and where these guns came from would be great. FloridaArmy (talk) 01:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is what the sources have--this is it. Find more sources and you can write more things. As for the guns, read the source: it lists how many muskets, how many Winchester rifles, how many bullets. He's not the only one who was listed there as handing out guns. Drmies (talk) 02:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Some of the sources you use do have more. Frank Moses appointed him to lead the militia? Who was Frank Moses? Source says he was radical. Defeated a moderate Black candidate. 1st Speaker. Which I guess means 1st post Civil War? Was there not a House before the war? Anyway. I wouldn't loosely call anyome Scalawag or Carpetbagger without context for the same reason wouldn't call Post Reconstruction Southern Politicians Redeemers. Northerner means the same thing as Carpetbagger without the negative connotation. Scalawag in parenthesis after Union symphathizer or some such is better to me than just using loaded language. FloridaArmy (talk) 02:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Franklin J. Moses Jr., that is. The guy that Ginsberg's book is about--wasn't that clear? Who cares what there was before the Civil War? You do, maybe, but since none of the sources I looked at say anything about that, there's no point in speculating. It's like speculating about his date of birth, and what that might mean. It's vain. Again, as for scalawag, that's a term used by a reliable source, so no one here is calling him anything "loosely". If you want to do something more useful for the project, you can incorporate some of this content in Moses's article. Drmies (talk) 02:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No it wasn't clear. This entry didn't mention Moses (I still don't think it does?). Didn't say who appointed Crews to head the militia. Didn't say what offfices Crews held or when. Was just larded up with irrelevant and highly charged content from a lousy source. Just putting more stuff in it because it's in some book isn't helpful.  FloridaArmy (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, that "lousy source" was the one you provided when you submitted the draft--no wonder people fell all over you at ANI and wanted to ban you from article creation. Well, if it's too "larded", we can always go back to the two-sentence thing you claimed was an article ready for publication--"Joseph Crews was a state legislator in South Carolina during the Reconstruction Era. A Radical Republican, he was put in charge of the state militia before being murdered." Also doesn't say what office he held. Or who appointed him. And he wasn't a "Radical Republican", according to the source. And it doesn't say who murdered him, or why, or how, or when. You know what, I spent enough time here with you--cleaning up this article, and this unverified thing full of errors was enough. Drmies (talk) 18:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

State legislator
Was he a state legislator or a county election commissioner and a militia leader? If I added the legislator part mea culpa. But let's get it right one way or the other. FloridaArmy (talk) 02:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. State legislator: Ginsberg, p. 102. He was all the things. Drmies (talk) 02:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay. According to this apparently unreliable source his brother Thomas B. was the editor of the Laurensville Herald? Claims he was in fact a slave trader and corruot profiteer.Otis Singletary has a bit about Crews lainting him in a negative light as well. FloridaArmy (talk) 02:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Drmies in which party of the South Carolina General Assembly? Houseor Senate? What years? FloridaArmy (talk) 02:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, I've put in all that I could find. Search for more sources and find more information. Or get the book (the Ginsberg book) and look through the bibliography. Go through more Congressional or state records. Drmies (talk) 02:18, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I found a website that listed the legislators in the 48th South Carolina General Assembly-1868-1870; Joseph Crews served in South Carolina House of Representatives from 1868 to 1870. I added a sentence and the citation to the article. Thank you-RFD (talk) 11:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Frank Moses
Speaker of the State House and then governor. He appointed him state militia as House leader apparently according to his Wikipedia article:

"While speaker of the House, Moses organized a statewide militia. This 14,000-man body was composed mostly of freedmen and headed by white officers. He used them to protect black voters during a period of intimidation and violence by the Ku Klux Klan and other white insurgents leading up to the 1870 elections, and was not above trying to disrupt Democratic Party meetings and voters. In this period, as noted by historian Benjamin Ginsberg, 'election outcomes depended as much upon the balance of armed force as upon the distribution of political popularity."

Moses also apparently tried to integrate University of South Carolina. FloridaArmy (talk) 03:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Here's an article on Jstor about the "Scalawag governor" from 1933. Ginsburg seems to err on the side of troublemaking Northerners as well. Those evil Yankees setting up schools and helping African Americans establish their own farms. The audacity!!! Imagine wanting to give them access to the University of South Carolina in the 1870s. Radical indeed. Didn't happen until when? 1960s? FloridaArmy (talk) 03:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Article has taint of racist apologetics
As written, this article has a taint of racist apologetics on it. This is due to it not providing enough context, and by following original racist sources too closely. To be fixed, it will have to be lengthened to provide the readers with more information regarding the situation at the time. I will try to provide some edits along these lines. Abductive (reasoning) 05:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)