Talk:Joseph Fry (tea merchant)

Notability
Joseph Fry was not a great achiever. However, his notability arises from this. His marriage brought together two great Quaker clans, Fry and Gurney, both of whom significantly influenced their environments. His failure to run his parents' business brought together distinguished members of his wife's family, to sort out the mess and his name requires a footnote in each of their biographies. His relationship with his wife and his children is important to an understanding of her remarkable contribution to the improved attitude to offenders in Europe and in the English-speaking world. Vernon White '''. . . Talk''' 20:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Need for this article evidenced
Two previous editors of the Elizabeth Fry article have needed a Joseph Fry article for clarification: one asserted that he was NOT related to the Fry family (chocolate), another thought the bank that crashed must have been Gurney's bank, not Fry's Bank. Vernon White '''. . . Talk''' 20:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Further work needed

 * List of the Children with DoBs and DoDs, marriages etc.
 * Indication of the Fry's relationship as marriage partners and parents.
 * . . . Vernon White  . . . Talk 20:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Children
User:Rocksanddirt remarks of the passage "There were five son and six daughters (one of whom died in infancy)."

"Not sure this is important enough for the bio article. unless the children are either notable themselves or his work was somehow inspired by them?"


 * Is it not important that the family was large, especially in view of their mother's propensity for travel? As noted in the last section, more work is needed on Elizabeth and Joseph's children. Kitty Fry published a memoir of her mother and History of the Parishes of East and West Ham. Vernon White  . . . Talk 22:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * my comment was geared more towards the short section which didn't make any encyclopedic reason for the mention of children, and I'm all for exclusion of people if there's no encyclopedic reason to list them (such as the non-notable children of notable people). And my bar's pretty low on what would be an encylcopedic reason.  --Rocksanddirt (talk) 01:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed that this section is inadequate. Disagree that nothing is better than something, in this case. Vernon White  . . . Talk 07:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the Gentleman's Magazine (1852) p.527 (Googlebooks)., In 1835, the youngest daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth Fry, Louisa, married Raymond Pelly, son of Sir John Henry Pelly Bt., in whose obituary this information is given.

Katharine - eldest, born 1801. Betsy died aged 4 Source: Quaker Home Service page on Elizabeth Fry.

Fry's bank
It seems that, at the time of the closure in 1828, the brothers William and Joseph Fry were in partnership with John Chapman and the bank was called Fry and Chapman's Bank (see many reports in The Times e.g. The Times, Saturday, Feb 24, 1844; pg. 8; Issue 18541; col F: Fry And Chapman's Bankruptcy. Vernon White  . . . Talk 23:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * or perhaps Frys and Chapman, from 1815 Roger Outram Banknotes 4 u list
 * According to the the Banknotes list above (preserved at https://web.archive.org/web/20120216072324/http://www.banknotes4u.co.uk/LondonBanks.pdf) the Bank was Fry & Sons 1806 - 1815 and Frys & Chapman 1815 - 1828.  --NHSavage (talk) 19:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The Bankrupt Directory By George Elwick (1843) pg.153 (on Googlebooks) lists bankruptcy of William and Joseph Fry and Jonathan Chapman 25 November 1828. Vernon White  . . . Talk 19:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Some other useful references on this would be:
 * Banks and bankers, By Daniel Hardcastle, 1843, https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MmdjAAAAcAAJ&dq=fry+and+chapman+bank+london&source=gbs_navlinks_s p443 has more information on the final financial position and the main debt that brought the company down.
 * http://soc.genealogy.britain.narkive.com/4amrrdnD/news-extracts-nov-28-1828-failure-of-a-banking-house-in-london-messrs-fry-and-chapman 28 November 1828 edition of The Newry Commercial Telegraph which states "These gentlemen have accounts with twenty-five country firms" (I am interested in the history of one of those 25 which is how I ended up here).

--NHSavage (talk) 19:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

"(tea merchant)"
Can there be a link to a disambiguation page for the other Joseph Frys? Or else, drop the "(tea merchant)" as it adds nothing when you find this page. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:30, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * You realize that this Joseph Fry is one of the less important ones? Joseph Fry (type-founder) (1728–1787) has a DNB entry.  This Joseph Fry does not.  You might suggest a different way of differentiating --Erp (talk) 04:03, 13 October 2016 (UTC)