Talk:Joseph Galloway

Founding Father?
I dispute the statement in the lede that Joseph Galloway was a Founding Father. Galloway opposed separation of the colonies from Great Britain, resigned the Continental Congress in 1775, joined General Sir William Howe’s British army after the start of the war, became the civil administrator of Philadelphia during its occupation in 1777, fled to England after the Continental Army regained control of the city in 1778, and was convicted of high treason by Pennsylvania's General Assembly. Based on the description in the Wikipedia article Founding Fathers of the United States, I plan to replace this claim with the term Loyalist (American Revolution) and will provide additional wording in support of the term reflecting Galloway's opposition to the American Revolution. Meanwhile, I would appreciate feedback from other editors. Allreet (talk) 05:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, having signed the Continental Association forever qualifies him. See Founding Fathers of the United States. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:21, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The source you're basing that on, Richard J. Werther, is simply analyzing some of the characteristics associated with signers of key documents, but at no point does Werther say that signing the Continental Association necessarily qualifies someone as a founder. Meanwhile, most if not all other sources (as well as logic) suggest a Founding Father is someone who actively supported the nation's founding, which Galloway never did, not in any respect. For sure, nothing in the Continental Association accord even hinted at separation. Then there's the fact that Galloway was the highest official in the colonial government to be found guilty of treason. Again, a Founder?
 * Galloway isn't the only issue, however. The reliance on (or rather, mis-reading of) Werther's article calls into question the list in the Founding Fathers article. This past year, an editor changed the section's title from Signatories of founding documents to List of Founding Fathers, thereby giving the impression that this is a generally accepted compendium of founders. It's not, plus the list itself is unsourced. IMO, the title should be reverted, and the section, if it's to remain here, should more clearly state why these four documents and then the list are relevant. Allreet (talk) 05:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your detailed thoughts about this. The place for this discussion should be the talk page of the Founding Fathers article, would you mind transferring your concerns there (cut and paste?) so more editors can address the issue. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Randy, done. Allreet (talk) 15:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I am reopening this dispute. Neither of the citations that have been added to the lead contain any information that would qualify Joseph Galloway as a Founding Father. This dispute parallels one currently in progress in the Founding Fathers article. If you read the works referenced in the citations supporting the title of founder in Galloway's article, you will find nothing to confirm his status as a Founding Father, only inferences made by the articles' titles. Werther's article, as I said above, analyzes signers of four documents related to the nation's founding but says nothing to confirm Galloway as a founder, though he did sign the first of these documents. In the second work referenced, nothing in the article refers to founding fathers other than the last paragraph, which states that Galloway's opponents are commemorated as founders, but indicates he is not. I will wait to remove the Founding Father wikilink and the two citations (though they may have other uses in this article) until after the dispute in the main article is resolved. I will be alerting the editor in question here via his talk page within the next day or two - well before I take any of the actions indicated. I am posting this current notice hoping some other editors might provide feedback. Allreet (talk) 22:31, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This editor seems to have a good faith case of WP:ICANTHEARYOU. The first reference, as they have been told numerous times, directly names the signers of the Continental Association as Founding Fathers. You seem to think that the Journal of the American Revolution is like a neighborhood shopper, and Werther just dropped an article off for someone to write an unrelated headline. No, he named his paper, the Journal made a conscious decision to print it, and to name the signers of the Association as Founding Fathers. No removal should be taken except as an edit war, which is not recommended. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Randy, I hear perfectly well. You keep saying your source is the last word. You need to get out more, and I'm not being cute. You seem to think this one article is the Constitution - it's not even the Preamble - but with that, you've locked yourself into one view. For example, the so-called "founding documents" you revere aren't as sacrosanct as you think. The National Archives, for example, doesn't regard the Continental Association and Articles of Confederation as being among them. Neither does the U.S. Congress website.
 * As for who's a Founding Father and who isn't, most respected sites and historians pretty much avoid conferring fatherhood. We should step back on that, too. I'm not suggesting exclusionism, but I'm just as opposed to inclusionism, especially on a subject that has no tangible bounds. You have your own, by the way, and they stretch much further than conventional wisdom, meaning what most reliable source tell us. BTW, all of what I've just said is why I posted the list of sources below. Allreet (talk) 19:28, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Removed citations for "Founding Father"
I have removed the two existing citations as erroneous. Neither supports Galloway as a Founding Father. The source referenced by the first citation is by the same writer who authored the following articles (none of the three specifically names Galloway or other signers of the Continental Association as "founders"), while the author of the second clearly states Galloway is not regarded a Founder. I suggest the lead needs to be written, and information from the above sources as well as the following (among others) is needed to provide a better understanding of the subject. Based on the four sources, the title Founding Father should be removed from the lead and the following needs to be summarized to provide a more accurate understanding of the subject: Galloway wasn't just a Loyalist - he was among the leading traitors to the American cause. He refused to run for the Second Continental Congress in 1775, opposed the Declaration, and within a few months of its signing, he joined the British army as one of Gen. Howe's closest aides. After providing military intelligence to Howe, helping him with logistics, and recruiting spies (up to 80), he was appointed to govern Philadelphia during its occupation. When the British evacuated, he fled to England and later was convicted of high treason by the Pennsylvania Assembly. This is not to say some of the current details don't belong in the lead, just that this other side deserves equal if not greater time. Allreet (talk) 07:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Patriots Turned Loyalist - The Experiences of Joseph Galloway and Isaac Low, Richard J. Werther, Journal of the American Revolution, February 21, 2018
 * Reconciliation Between the Colonies and Great Britain - A Close Call, Richard J. Werther, Journal of the American Revolution, May 16, 2019
 * Galloway, Joseph 1731–1803, U.S. House of Representatives
 * Joseph Galloway and the British Occupation of Philadelphia, John L. Coleman, Pennsylvania History: A Journal of Mid-Atlantic Studies, 1963
 * Sorry, signers of the other three founding documents are accepted per sources and various talk page discussions as Founding Fathers, and since there is no dispute that the Continental Association is a founding document, site consistency applies. Besides the defining 2017 Werther article "Analyzing the Founders: A Closer Look at the Signers of Four Founding Documents" in the Journal of the American Revolution here are two other sources which, for consistency and per WP:COMMONSENSE, acknowledge that the Founders include the signers of the fourth: The Founder of the Day article "Signers of the Continental Association" clearly states "Below is a list of the Founders who signed the Continental Association" [emphasis mine], followed by the names of the 53 signers (Founder of the Day also names the Association as one of the four founding documents). The worldhistory.edu "Top 10 Founding Fathers of the United States of America" - section "List of Founding Fathers of the United States" asserts "Also, two broader groups of Founding Fathers capture the signers of Articles of Confederation (the initial version of the American Constitution which was adopted in 1777 and ratified in 1781) and the signers of the Continental Association (created on October 20, 1774)" [emphasis mine]. Please add these sources to the pages of the other Association signers you are intent of removing from Founding Father status, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

If you have any problems or suggestions with changes I made to the lead in Galloway's bio, please let me know. Regarding sources that need to be added elsewhere, you should apply your own. Here's a list of others that should also be considered (I have more): I'm not certain as to where each of these applies in Founding Fathers pages, though I do know many either contradict sources currently being used or should be applied to give readers a more complete view. In any case, I hope you find these helpful. Allreet (talk) 17:43, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * National Archives, Founding Fathers
 * National Archives, Founding Documents
 * U.S. Congress, Founding Documents
 * Harvard's Avalon Project, Declaration of Independence
 * Constitution Facts, Declaration of Independence
 * Constitution Facts, Signers of the Constitution
 * Richard D. Brown, "The Founding Fathers of 1776 and 1787"
 * Saul K. Padover, "The World of the Founding Fathers"
 * Journal of the American Revolution, "How Do You Define Founding Fathers?"
 * New York Times, "Signers of the Declaration"
 * History.com, "The Founding Fathers"