Talk:Joseph Lister

The section on Lister's early years is a little confusing at times. Could it be made clearer? It speaks of his father, but at times it is hard to tell if his father or Lister himself is being spoken of. It mentions his mother and then the next sentence is "the couple" had their last child in 1855. I assume this is in regard to Lister Jr. and his wife, but it follows right after talking about his mother and just previous to that about his father and the microscope and all. Could this be edited and cleared up? Thanks! 172.58.123.28 (talk) 13:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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Listerine
I removed reference to the Listerine mouthwash in the first paragraph, not because it's incorrect or shouldn't be mentioned, but because it appeared like it was an achievement for which he should be remember for. It's like leading an article on Einstein with a mention that the dog in "Back To The Future" was named after him, factually correct, but out of place trivia.


 * I think that the information about Listerine should be re-included into the article, if only to clear up misconceptions that Lister invented it himself. Leeuwenhoek 02:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

birth
What date was he born in?

joseph lister was born in 1827

Cultural depictions of Joseph Lister, 1st Baron Lister
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  18:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy of Lister getting Goodyear to make rubber gloves
There is a near identical claim made on the wikipedia page for William Stewart Halstad.

Possible link to Joseph Lister's items on “Himetop – The History of medicine topographical database”
I suggest that somebody, interested in this page, could insert an external link to the following page describing, with pictures, some Joseph Lister’s memories: http://himetop.wikidot.com/joseph-lister

I don’t do it myself because I’m also an Administrator of this site (Himetop) and it could be a violation of the Wikipedia Conflict of Interest policy. Thanks for your attention.

Luca Borghi (talk) 10:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Adding reference material at WikiSource
I have started to add information for s:Author:Joseph Lister. Something of specific interest is the seminal paper On the Antiseptic Principle of the Practice of Surgery. More to be added. -- billinghurst (talk) 12:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

DEAR ADMINISTRATOR
excuse me but you keep deleting useful information that the people want to. for example: kids doing assignments. i have added useful information and you have deleted it. 124.183.199.186 (talk) 02:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC) Thank you 124.183.199.186 (talk) 03:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.199.186 (talk) 02:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Abandonment of phenol
May be worth adding something here: One of the first reports of adverse effects of chemicals on healthcare workers was the use of carbolic acid (phenol) sprays by Lister (Newsom, 2003), who stated “…as regards the spray, I feel ashamed that I should have even recommended it…”. He abandoned its use in 1889 after recognising the hazard.

Newsom SWB. Pioneers in infection control--Joseph Lister. Journal of Hospital Infection 2003;55(4):246-53. 21:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deeuubee (talk • contribs)

Lister -- and the birthday of modern medicine (doing less harm than before) in 1865
"Lister disappears into germ theory's prehistory, and is merely 'the English disciple' of Pasteur, a role in which, it must be said, he cast himself. As a result, the nature of the first crucial meeting between science and medicine is scarcely explored and its character is systematically misunderstood. ... Lister's work is hopelessly underestimated if one takes at face value his own unduly modest suggestion that it followed straightforwardly from reading Pasteur. To make the leap that Lister made [and it may have been the biggest leap in medicine so far] you needed to be a microscopist (to have seen all the invisible creatures in the air), a bacteriologist (to understand that every operation was a bacteriological experiment), and a surgeon, accustomed to struggling with sepsis." (David Wootton, 2006: Bad Medicine -- Doctors doing harm since Hippocrates, pp. 229, 239) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.2.161.4 (talk) 19:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

The article seems to say that Lister heard about new research, applied the techniques, which were successful -- scientific method. That quote seems to say Lister figured it all out. This isn't to diminish Lister's work, but like Fleming's discovery of penicillin, he stood on shoulders of giants. In that article, Lister is said to have cured a patient's infection with a mold-derived "Penicillium". I'd think that book would focus on toxic dangers of phenols. 68.149.10.39 (talk) 04:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

King Edward VII
The King had his operation to drain an appendix abscess on 24 June 1902, not August as here described. The King's appendix was not removed.

See Wikipedia articles for Sir Frederick Treeves who performed the operation.

The King's coronation, due to take place on 26 June, was postponed until 9 August.

86.135.112.185 (talk) 19:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Wine auction
Not worthy of comment in the main article, but perhaps of interest to a passing researcher, might be an auction, by Messrs. Christie, Manson & Woods, on 21 May 1912, “The Cellar of Wines of The Right Hon. Lord Lister, deceased, late of 12 Park Crescent, Portland Place, W.” Some of the Ports were bottled by Lister and Beck, seemingly unrelated. (My pictures 21339/40.) JDAWiseman (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified (January 2018)
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Plan for update
I plan to update this article. It only has 6k covering Lister's life, which is drastically too short. I plan to take it up 40k-60k and submit it for GA.  scope_creep Talk  17:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Use later TODO

 * 1)  between 1883 and 1897 as Sir Joseph Lister, Bt.

Quotebox
for use later.  scope_creep Talk  22:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

The big four
The guardian review of The Butchering Art: Joseph Lister's Quest to Transform the Grisly World of Victorian Medicine, mentions the big four. What were they??  scope_creep Talk  18:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Unprovable
In 1889 he was elected as Foreign member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.  scope_creep Talk  21:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Main Todo List
 scope_creep Talk  11:46, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Info on Carbolic acid.
 * 2) Question of KCVO still to be settled.
 * 3) Wakley gave up on 20 December 1879
 * 4) 1852 was when he did first caustic liquid on open wound.
 * 5) page  Gross, Lister, two paintings. DONE. In diffusion section.

A ref on his surviving papers
More than 30 of his early school papers are still preserved.

Honours
I note he has KCVO among his postnominals but no reference in the detailed Awards section as to when he was awarded the Royal Victorian Order (founded 1896 so one is unsure if it was awarded by Queen Victoria or Edward VII). Did he become Sir thereby?Cloptonson (talk) 07:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I couldn't tell you at the moment. I went through the section to copyedit it, but never checked yet whether it was applicable. A reader came in and sorted the list in the lede and that was already there, I think. The man was awarded quite an enormous number of awards and honours, more than probably anybody else in history. You could have one huge article on these awards alone. I read a bit about the fund that was created after his death, doctors sending money from outer Mongolia, Southern Africa, Australia, so it takes a bit of time to take it in. I'll check Godlee and come back to you in a couple of days.    scope_creep Talk  13:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Understand. I only called this out because it is a high British honour in the gift of the sovereign, so would be sourceable in the London Gazette and contemporary biographical reference books like Who's Who. It just looked a major inconsistency to me.Cloptonson (talk) 13:26, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yip. I can't find in the 20odd documents have on him with an Adobe document search on Royal Victorian Order ore on KCVO. I'll do a better search later. I notice from other surgeons who were Serjeant-Surgeons to the queen, e.g.  that one of them was KCVO. Were they awarded it, for being Surgeon to Queen I wonder?     scope_creep Talk  14:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi The KCVO has been taken out. I think it is accurate to say that he wasn't awarded it. User:Mandsford found a newspaper.com entry, from The Guardian an article, dated 12 February 1912, which doesn't mention the KCVO. I think being that close, in time, it would be entirely accurate. At the time it would be universal news, and the man was so famous, ultra-famous really. I suspect the other editor assumed the fact, as everybody else in that position, would have been awarded it. Certainly, it is possibly something to do with OM being prepared. I don't know if at the same time frame, it could be that. Thanks for posting that.    scope_creep Talk  17:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi I have several biographies on Lister now. I checked everyone of them and none of them mention the KCVO, so it looks like you were right.   scope_creep Talk  08:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Size
I am planning for about 270k for this article. I seems to be the rough size for these level 4 GA, FA articles.  scope_creep Talk  11:16, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Dates of moving
1812 Joseph Jackson Lister transferred the wine business to 5 Tokenhouse Yard 1818 Married Isabella Harris; they had 3 daughters and 4 sons, of whom one, Joseph Lister, became Baron Lister of Lyme Regis, the famous surgeon, and another, Arthur Lister, became a botanist. c.1822 They moved to Stoke Newington 1824 Proposed an improved design of microscope lens to overcome spherical abberation, which became the state of the art. 1826 Lister bought Upton House, West Ham, where he lived for the rest of his life.   scope_creep Talk  20:35, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Books articles to get
 scope_creep Talk  15:02, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Medical Innovations in Historical Perspective - Science, Technology and Medicine in Modern History (Hardback) John V. Pickstone (editor). Lindsay Granshaw article is interesting.
 * Joseph Lister: The man who made surgery safe (Pathfinder biographies;no.15) Hardcover – Import, January 1, 1963 by Frederick F. Cartwright
 * Crowther MA, Dupree M. medical lives in the Age of Surgical Revolution. Cambridge: Cambridge University press; 2007.
 * Descriptive catalogue of the surgical instruments formerly the property of the late Lord Lister, in the Museum of the Royal College of Surgeons of England by Alban H. G Doran 1915

Todo

 * 1873-74 is missing from Godlee.
 * Removed FFPS from post-noms in lede. Doesn't seem to mean anything but for some reason its there. Replaced with FRCPGlas.
 * Need to find more information on Listers Microscope and who made it.✅

 scope_creep Talk  14:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Peerage title
The issue of The London Gazette announcing Lister's peerage reads in part: "Baron Lister, of Lyme Regis, in the county of Dorset". This indicates that "Baron Lister" alone is the official title of his peerage – everything after the first comma is the territorial designation – so we should have "The Lord Lister" in the infobox; this is not just colloquial or daily usage. Additionally, since Lister was granted a hereditary peerage (despite not having any heirs to inherit it), we should have "1st Baron Lister" in the lead. This parallels exactly what the Wikipedia article on Lord Kelvin uses. —  RAVEN PVFF   · talk · 17:14, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems accurate. I just needed to explain it to me to provide some clarity. Thanks for that. Sorry I reverted.   scope_creep Talk  18:39, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you update the section where is describes getting his peerage, stating he was Baron of Lyme Regis and make sure the wording is correct. It was written ages ago by somebody else I don't know if its accurate.  scope_creep Talk  07:04, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It does have small section but I don't know if its accurate. I does look ok though.   scope_creep Talk  07:06, 8 April 2022 (UTC)


 * No worries! The section appears already to have the correct phrasing describing Lister's peerage. I have taken the liberty to add some links and tweak some extraneous capitalisation, though. —  RAVEN PVFF   · talk · 07:29, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Coolio. Thanks for updating and doing the infobox. Its been need done for ages, who knows how long.   scope_creep Talk  07:38, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Todo
Papers added to the physiology section in edinburgh may not be physiology papers.  scope_creep Talk  01:07, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Thats not the case.  scope_creep Talk  08:16, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

List of Publications of Lister in the British Medical Journal
William Hentry Dobies obit at contains a list for reason.  scope_creep Talk 

Being Lister: ethos and Victorian medical discourse
Article that describes the difficulties that Lister had in writing and why he never produced a biography. A section is perhaps needed, a small section.  scope_creep Talk  08:21, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Letter on imflammation
Letter, brmedj06853-0047a Letter listers views on imflammation. Describes his views on imflammation when he stayed. Contrary to Hunter.  scope_creep Talk  22:33, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

 scope_creep Talk  20:51, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Inflammation, suppuration, putrefaction, fermentation: Joseph Lister's microbiology Ruth Richardson. On his inaugural lecture in London.

Testimonials Glasgow
https://archive.org/details/b2493074x/mode/2up?view=theater  scope_creep Talk  08:37, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Todo

 * 1873-74 is missing from Godlee.
 * Removed FFPS from post-noms in lede. Doesn't seem to mean anything but for some reason its there. Replaced with FRCPGlas.
 * Still missing sections in pysiology to complete.   scope_creep Talk  23:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Erichsen section, house surgeon might now be out of order.   scope_creep Talk  10:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Document is good for 1847 lancet article definitions
Statistics and the British controversy about the effects of Joseph Lister’s system of antisepsis for surgery, 1867–1890.  scope_creep Talk  02:28, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Why he never wrote any books
http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jmh.2008.000270

Dud sentence
For three days in November 1859, Lister examined Pus corpuscle from the eye of rabbit as well as blood taken from the heart and arteries.

Articles on specific events
Article on Lister rolls: Keep for later use possibly?  scope_creep {{sup|Talk}}  06:36, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * {{cite journal |last1=King |first1=Louise |title=The Lecture Rolls of Sir Joseph Lister |journal=The Bulletin of the Royal College of Surgeons of England |date=1 November 2011 |volume=93 |issue=10 |pages=369

Current status
The article is on its way. Its take a lot of reading to understand what had been going on between 1865-1867, both to try and understand the papers, which are apparently quite difficult to understand on their own and in order to get the references sorted and read with papers that cover that period. Reading through a lot of very specific references had taken time.  scope_creep Talk  09:11, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Sterility experiment
"In 1871 Lister prepared an experiment to demonstrate to his students that the air carried organisms that could be killed by heating, he modified four flasks, by extending and drawing their necks into a narrow tube that was bent in at an acute angle. Using three of the flasks in an experiment with the fourth used as the control, he filled each with his own fresh urine. In the control flask the urine quickly became infected with a mould, while the other flasks remained clear and unclouded as the dust and organisms could pass the angular bend."

This is, at best, an unclear description of the experiment. One flask should have easy access (no neck) for air-borne organisms to access the flask, the long recurved neck is supposed to prevent them from contaminating the other flasks by gravity preventing access. Both types are, however, open to the air. 157.231.151.76 (talk) 08:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, its very raw text. I started looking at it, and started writing it, and then stopped, as I will still working in the 1860's. Can you suggest a better description of the experiment and it could go in. I think you have spurred me to get back to the article. Thanks for posting this. I shows me that folk are really reading the article.  scope_creep Talk  08:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Urine Sterility experiment
An address on the Antiseptic System of Treatment in Surgery. (Medico-Chirurgical Society of Glasgow, 2 May 1868.) British medical Journal, 1868, 2, 53-6 (18 July): 101-2 (1 August); 461-3 (31 October); 515-7 (14 November). Manuscript with related notes, mainly autograph: R.C.S. 33 Observations on Ligature of Arteries on the Antiseptic System. The Lancet, 3.

So urine experiment described in the paper above was started on October 1867. p55 vol II of collected papers. One of several experiments in that paper.  scope_creep Talk  22:06, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Winter lecture course
to finish.  scope_creep Talk  23:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Unexplained revert
Not sure why errors were restored to the article. The work is by Cheyne W. Watson not W. Watson Watson, and the ref needs to use |last= not |first=. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi It was gallery change you did. You said it was overly wide on mobile. I'll split it today into two parts.    scope_creep Talk  10:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * So why did you mass revert, rather than just undoing that one edit? Even if you couldn't do it automatically, you could just have restored that part of the wikitext manually. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Breaking links
You broke a wiki link while manually reverting your bold experiment with unusual spelling (preventitive? really?). I fixed the link, and you reverted that. Could you explain what is this you are doing? Also you removed a wiki link allegedly "for moment until article is fixed". Could you explain how this is supposed to help fixing anything? Thanks. Retimuko (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * How are you? What makes you think its unusual spelling. I did notice the Lister insitute is actually the Lister Institute of preventive medicine, but I think that is modern take. I suspect but I'm not sure, since I last left a message that it was preventative medicine up to some date in the 20th century, not "preventive", hence the reason for reverting.   scope_creep Talk  18:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the watch phrase is that I'm not sure.  scope_creep Talk  18:11, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * You managed to avoid answering both questions. Question 1: You broke a link while manually reverting yourself, and then reverted my fix. Could you explain why? Question 2: You removed another wiki link "for moment until article is fixed". Could you explain how removing a link should help fixing anything? Thanks. Retimuko (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Originally I thought the name of the term was "Preventative medicine". That is the term that was used, I think its used, in the 19th century according to Godlee. When I originally created the link in the lede, I put in sentence that said for something like "Preventative medicine" in the lede, from Godlee. That was linked to Preventitive medicine, which was removed back to Preventive healthcare which is modern thing, which no longer fits the 19th context. The lede is junk anyway. So when I saw you changing it back to Preventive healthcare and linking it on its own, I thought that was wrong and I still do and reverted it. It doesn't fit the narrative. I changed the Lister Istitute links before realising its called preventive medicine. I never actually looked at the title. Removing the link, because the link is not suitable.    scope_creep Talk  18:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Does that make sense?   scope_creep Talk  18:40, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Not quite. You tried to rename Lister Institute to "preventitive" (and you don't seem to see the mistake), then reverted yourself manually, breaking the link in the process by removing the last "e" in "medicine" (and you still don't seem to see the problem). I fixed that, and you reverted the fix. All this makes an impression of some sort of disruption on your part. Retimuko (talk) 19:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * When are you going to put the link back that you removed "for moment until article is fixed"? It seems wrong not to link to an important concept for the context of the article. Retimuko (talk) 17:22, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I want to work on Lister but I'm working at WP:NPP at the moment. Probably next week. Is it bothering. I will need to look at Godlee to see if it is the correct term. There is something there I don't know about and need to look at it, but not at the moment. If you want to change it, crack on but its likely going to change but it doesn't quite fit the period, but could be a grammer. I don't know. The lister instute bit is a spelling mistake.   scope_creep Talk  17:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Todo on Inflammation research at Edinburgh
This time, stimulation of the section had no effect except when the section would spontaneously contract. The experiment enabled Lister to conclude: " Still to finish this and marker removed.   scope_creep Talk  07:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Todo

 * Intramural part is missing from Edinburgh lecturing.
 * Showed the first bacterial culture at his inaugural lecture in London. Need to add context. Why?
 * He managed to get a b.lactis culture isolated. When and where. What is b.lactis, Bifidobacterium animalis?
 * He subsequently published his results in The Lancet in a series of six articles, running from March through July 1867. Where are those six articles? These are antispectics?
 * Lister's first operation. When and where was his first public operation. Need to dates to finish the sentence.
 * Page 97 of Wrench. 29 June 1863 for Pasteur paper was most important.
 * William Henry Dobie who was Listers dresser in Edinburgh and London. He made case notes on Listers operations, lectures. p.105 of Medicine and science in the 1860s : proceedings of the sixth British Congress on the History of Medicine, University of Sussex, 6-9 September 1967 / edited by F.N.L. Poynter. 1860 Paper. Where are they? Unable to locate them?    scope_creep Talk  18:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Archives of the Royal college of Surgeons possibly.

 scope_creep Talk  19:42, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Hand-painted poster used at Lister’s inaugural lecture at King’s College London. Contact Kings College London and see if there is images that are in public domain available. Do the same for Listers rolls.
 * Robert Koch and Lister had independently discovered that airborne pathogens are rarely as pathogenic as those found on surgeons or instrument. After that point, Lister no longer used the spray.
 * Richardson & Rhodes 2013. Try and put in individual page numbers for this ref.