Talk:Josephine Baker

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Sexuality
It's pretty obvious that there's a lot of talk about Baker's sexuality. But this page mentions nothing. I mean, the gay and lesbian review, for one, think she was gay or bisexual (http://www.glreview.com/issues/13.5/13.5-strong.php). And apparently her son said she was in an interview with them. So why nothing here? Andral (talk) 00:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I flinch when a Wikipedia article makes blanket statements like "Person X was bisexual." Of the two sources listed, one is an article on the Gay and Lesbian Review website, with no page citations. The other is a bio of Frida Kahlo with no page citations. Of the several biographies of Baker listed in references, none of them are used to back up this claim. I don't know if Baker was bisexual or not. But neither do you. It is not enough to assume; it is not enough to say "everyone knows this is true." Prove it. Where are credible sources which state this, with page citations? To whom did her adopted son give this alleged interview (also without a source, by the way)? This section should be trimmed unless some better citations are added.Catherinejarvis (talk) 19:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Further reading on the subject raises another concern: can the biography written by her "son" be acceptable as a source? He was, in fact, not legally adopted by Josephine Baker, and met her when he was 14 and she was 52. He is apparently bisexual himself and an article listed on his own, separate, Wikipedia page refers to his biography as "an ax to grind" against Ms. Baker. Again, I'm not questioning whether Ms. Baker was bisexual, but whether it can be proven from any impartial, credible source. Catherinejarvis (talk) 20:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, for clarity, in his book Jean Claude Baker wrote "I've never even been her fan" and "I loved her, hated her." The book has no endnotes and has a listing of magazine articles by title, but not by article. There is no list of interview subjects. Can this really be acceptable as a source for the controversial claim that has no other corroboration?Catherinejarvis (talk) 20:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you made the right choice by deleting the section. I've removed all the LBGT and bisexual categories that resulted from that section. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Rather than simply deleting the information, could you instead post here to the talk page for more information?


 * I understand your concerns about labeling a person has passed on - we cannot ask them if they are/were bisexual, so we can only take what others say about them.


 * In this case, we have her adopted son - regardless of his "motives", he *does* offer documentation. We also have Encyclopedia of Women in Today's World and several other books. Admittedly, many of those books base their information on Jean Claude's, but some of them don't seem to be. Since we have sources that state Baker was bisexual, it seems a disservice to omit this information. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 07:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC


 * Consider the claim the Jean Claude Baker makes in the second sentence of his book: "She had thousands of lovers." (p. xvi) How could anyone accept such a claim when the author had not met the women until she was over fifty? Add that to the quotes above that he was not a fan and he hated her. Now consider that on the first page of this "biography" refers to Josephine Baker four times and the author writes the words I or me 18 times. There are no footnotes, no endnotes. No list of interview subjects. The book reads like the fantasy of an untalented never-was using a tenuous connection to a celebrity for his own gain. This is the reason why people still laugh at Wikipedia: anyone can post anything based on the claims of one person. As another editor said above, the paragraph should be completely omitted unless there is reliable evidence which comes from an impartial source.Catherinejarvis (talk) 22:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

As for the Encyclopedia of Women in Today's World, Josephine Baker is listed in one sentence along with 45 other people who "have been identified" as being bisexual. That is not evidence. It's just a claim made up without corroboration. Every article on Wikipedia must be vigorous in not allowing gossip and hearsay.Catherinejarvis (talk) 22:26, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I edited the sexuality section and allowed the unreliable source to remain while including information on the author.Catherinejarvis (talk) 19:07, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * And I reverted most of your changes. You can't fix the problems you've identified by bashing the subject's son, Jean-Claude Baker, who is subject to our WP:BLP policy. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Jean Claude Baker was NOT her son, as he admits at the beginning of his book. He was a fan who changed his name to cash in on her celebrity. He did, in fact, write that he "hated her" and did, in fact, refer to himself 18 times on the first page of his alleged biography of someone else. The source is not credible and the claim is pure gossip. I was not "bashing" Mr. Baker but simply stating facts from his highly questionable book, after more reasonable edits were removed. The section as it stands now is exactly as it was before this discussion began, as if no one is allowed to question it.Catherinejarvis (talk) 16:54, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:BLP. And WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * After checking a copy of the book through Google Books and seeing that the pages in question don't support the broad assertions made, I've removed the section. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I thank you and hope this will end the discussion for a while, at least. Apologies for going off on a rant Catherinejarvis (talk) 19:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm dismayed that the entire subject of her sexuality has been removed. I *almost* understand reluctance to rely on a given source, though I don't understand how including an emotional statement (saying he hates her) automatically makes the entire book un-acceptable?


 * Furthermore, a simple Google search returns a staggering number of other sites that state her bisexuality. One even calls her a "bisexual icon."


 * Can we at least agree to *some* sort of statement about her sexuality? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I reviewed the source and it didn't support the assertion that Baker was bisexual. "[O]nce in a while ... there would be a lady lover in Josephine's life"? Is that sufficient for the paragraph that was in the article?
 * Most of the Google hits you link to above aren't reliable sources. To include the assertion that Baker was bisexual—let alone a list of her alleged lovers—we'll need some quality sources. If you have any suggestions, I'm interested in hearing them. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * How about
 * The Gay & Lesbian Review
 * glbtq.com
 * Finding Out: An Introduction to LGBT Studies
 * Out Magazine
 * Queer Noises: Male and Female Homosexuality in Twentieth Century Music
 * Seriously - there are tons, and even if some sources are questionable (and I maintain that all of the above are WP:RS), the sheer number of reports of her bisexuality deserves mention. I'm not requesting a return to the version you site, which relies solely on JC Baker's book, but the current version whitewashes her sexuality completely. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:07, 10 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Most of those sources are good. Thank you. Why don't you draft a paragraph in the article that's supported by the sources. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:38, 10 January 2013 (UTC)


 * These sources are not good: they rely on Baker's book, or other sources which rely on Baker, as their source. Where are the "tons" of sources which do not rely on Baker's memoir? Did this claim exist anywhere before 1983, when Baker's book was published? The citation for Queer Noise (above) has only one sentence that says  a historian "claimed" that five women were gay - but does not say where he said it. What article? What page number?  I don't object to the claim itself; I suggest that every source making the claim is based solely on Jean Claude Baker.Catherinejarvis (talk) 19:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why Baker is categorized as bisexual based on a claim made by her son. A claim is just that, a claim. I can claim the moon is made of cheese. I can even write a book about the claim but it doesn't make it fact. I have no issue about the subject of the claim because one's sexuality is a rather insignificant aspect of one's personality but this rush to categorize every person as bisexual is becoming a bit much. I can think of very few celebrities who hasn't been subject to some author's claim. James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Joan Crawford (who supposedly bedded Monroe!), Barbara Stanwyck, Clark Gable, etc., etc. I can see mentioning such a claim but to categorize someone who never self identified (whether seriously or cheekily like Tallulah Bankhead) or never addressed such a claim during their lifetime is presumptuous and wrong. I believe readers should make up their own mind about such things (whether they want to bitch about Wikipedia "whitewashing" or being too conservative is irrelevant as most complainers are silly and more interested in the sensationalized aspects of subjects' careers) and we should only categorize people on factual merits. There's way too much of "let's try to appease complainers" instead of sticking to facts. There are a billion other places on the web that people can claim someone is gay or whatever else they fancy, those kinds of things shouldn't be in an encyclopedia that is attempting to be taken serious as a source of credible information.

Regardless of whether she was bisexual or not, the reference to Garber's book on bisexuality does not support the claim that she and Kahlo were lovers. That claim, at least should be excised from the page. Djfiander (talk) 17:50, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Garber's book is hardly more authoritative than Jean Claude Baker's. Apart from the quote from Maude Russell (unless the Russell quote comes from Baker's book? Having trouble finding the citations page in Garber's book, and I'm unsure if Garber interviewed Russell or if she sourced the interview from somewhere else). Still, it doesn't seem like enough to definitively state "she was bisexual." Is there a way the section could elaborate on who Jean Claude Baker and Maude Russell are, and then quote them?

Jean Claude Baker's assertion that "she had thousands of lovers," (some of whom were women), reads as an attempt to degrade Josephine Baker based on her number/choice of sexual partners, and as such shouldn't be taken as gospel truth. Maude Russell's claim is more believable, but it's still not appropriate to treat one or two people making a claim as a fact.

I think it would be valuable if the section could give a brief outline of the evidence (that she was bisexual) to allow the readers to decide for themselves. As users above me have pointed out, just because something is repeated often doesn't mean there's a sufficient source for it. Waitalie Nat (talk) 14:50, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The source book on which all later claims of bisexuality is based was published only in 1993, years after Josephine Baker's death. Perhaps the sentence on the main text here should simply be modified to read something like  'In 1993 Miss Baker was posthumously reported to have been bisexual'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.146.128 (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I’m glad to see the first paragraph “bisexual” has been removed in the last few days. French Wikipedia didn’t make a big thing of it. Similarly “Freemason” should be given much less prominence. Baker’s sexuality or membership of a Masonic lodge are minor aspects of her life and giving such prominence is intended to discredit her. It is the EMPHASIS that is offensive. It may be politically motivated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:E04:2000:FC31:1F60:BED6:EBE9 (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Jazz singer?...or not. Part of WikiProject Jazz?....or not.
Seems to me that she should be considered part of the subject of Jazz music, otherwise all the mentions of her singing French Jazz should be excised and all the Refs mentioning Jazz or on the subject of Jazz that included Baker - like the Oxford Companion to Jazz, and the articles like "Real First Lady of Jazz" & "Le Jazz-Hot" could be regarded as suspect... plus what about the Category of "French female jazz singers"? Shearonink (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I think you made the right move by putting the WikiProject Jazz banner back on this page. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 17:59, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Recent deletion of various "Jazz" categories
Jazz categories were removed in this edit. I think the Jazz cats should be retained - let's discuss. Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 14 February 2019 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 18:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 18:41, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Why do you think that?
 * Jazz is lowercased, by the way.
 * OK. I'm here to discuss why you think the Jazz Categories ought to be deleted from this article. You're the editor who removed them - how about let's discuss why you think those categories should be deleted. As for the beginning of why I think the Jazz categories should be retained, i'll refer you to a December 2017 post of mine on this page:
 * "Seems to me that she should be considered part of the subject of Jazz music, otherwise all the mentions of her singing French Jazz should be excised and all the Refs mentioning Jazz or on the subject of Jazz that included Baker - like the Oxford Companion to Jazz, and the articles like "Real First Lady of Jazz" & "Le Jazz-Hot" could be regarded as suspect..."
 * So let's talk about it. Ok? Shearonink (talk) 19:05, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I asked you a question. Go ahead.


 * The Oxford Companion to Jazz mentions Josephine Baker on two pages in the 2008 paperback edition, which I have next to me. On p. 700 she appears in one sentence: "The first all-black show on Broadway, Shuffle Along, showcased a spectrum of jazz dancing, from soft shoe and tap to acrobatic dancing, and introduced many jazz dancers (including an attention-getting chorus girl named Josephine Baker). On page 223 she is mentioned in the context of a song by Irving Berlin sung by Ethel Waters ("Harlem on my Mind, a witty send-up of Josephine Baker)".


 * The three volume hardcover set of the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz (2nd ed.), which I have next to me, has no entry for Baker. AllMusic online has an entry about her that begins "dancer and singer Josephine Baker progressed from vaudeville to New York theater to the Parisian cabaret scene and became the toast of Europe before the age of 21." Nowhere in the article is she called a jazz musician or a jazz singer. Vaudeville, cabaret, traditional pop, but not jazz.


 * The Biographical Encyclopedia of Jazz by Leonard Feather and Ira Gitler (1999 paperback), which I have next to me, has no entry for her.

Vmavanti (talk) 19:14, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * She is not mentioned in The History of Jazz by Ted Gioia. Also on my shelf.

Vmavanti (talk) 19:14, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * P.S. "Jazz" is lowercased.

Vmavanti (talk) 19:16, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "otherwise all the mentions of her singing French Jazz should be excised" So what? My keyboard has a delete key. It's easy.
 * I'm sure you're an expert in Jazz. But to box Miss Baker into not being a part of the jazz experience when she was well-known for her jazz dancing... doesn't quite make sense to me. But whatever. Shearonink (talk) 05:54, 15 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It's an easy mistake to make because the terms are so ambiguous, and the terms we use (jazz, jazz singing, jazz dancing) didn't really get defined until later. But if we didn't have words for things, we would never write to each other or talk to each other. We would sit in silence.

By the way, why do you keep capitalizing "jazz"? That's the third time I've mentioned it, but you neither change how you are writing it nor ask me. Debate and disagreement are part of the normal functioning of Wikipedia. Mistakes are OK. Everyone makes mistakes. It's when we don't learn from them that there is a problem. I didn't come out of the womb knowing about jazz. No one does. I've read about it during my life and have had experiences which contribute to my knowledge.

To your point: I'm not sure what you mean by "the jazz experience". Baker did perform briefly at the Cotton Club as a chorus girl, so she was around many jazz musicians (good ones) as it was being defined. But if you are in a room of surgeons, does that make you a surgeon? If you are in a room full of Japanese people, does that make you Japanese? "Jazz experience" is a vague, ambiguous term in a field (jazz) that has many vague, ambiguous terms. It doesn't need more. That's one reason why there has always been so much disagreement. There's a self-defeating desire to avoid defining and making distinctions. Josephine Baker appears to be more of a stripper than a jazz dancer. That's why she's in the Burlesque Hall of Fame. I have to make decisions about what gets included in the jazz project. There are 7.7 billion people in the world, 27,000 jazz articles, and two of us do most of the work. Two. I have to draw the line somewhere. I know it won't please everyone. I do think about what I'm doing, and I do make mistakes.

Jazz dance didn't really begin until years later, associated with Gene Kelly, Gus Giordano, Luigi, and Bob Fosse (all of them trained in classical ballet), and it doesn't have much to do with jazz music. The first use of the word "jazz" was in the baseball sports pages in San Francisco around 1906. I remember years ago there was something called "jazzercise". I don't even know if that term exists anymore, but to me it's meaningless. Vmavanti (talk) 17:05, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Vmavanti (talk) 17:36, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * To clarify, in this edit, Vmavanti removed the article from "jazz singer" categories. The edit cited at the very top of this discussion removed the article from WP:WikiProject Jazz. Those are two different things.
 * Baker was many things, but I would find it hard to defend a description of her as a jazz singer (even if an author titled her biography of Baker Jazz Cleopatra). The popular media throw around the word "jazz" with little regard for what it means. Their thinking seems to be that in the U.S. and Europe, the 1920s were the Jazz Age, so popular music or musicians of the 1920s must have been making jazz.
 * I'm less concerned about which WikiProjects look after an article than I am about the categorization of articles. Looking at the other articles in Category:American female jazz singers and Category:French female jazz singers, it's really hard to argue that Baker was part of the same vocal tradition that they are. And I think that's borne out by the fact that the jazz encyclopedias cited by Vmavanti don't mention Baker or briefly rush by her to focus on the mainstream of vocal jazz. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:00, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * So y'all agree that Josephine Baker's article doesn't belong in WikiProject Jazz?... I can see removing her from the jazz singer categories and yes it is up to the contributing members of WikiProject Jazz to delineate who belongs in the Project and who does not...Just the deletions caught me by surprise. What can I say - sometimes I am an inclusionist.
 * I do want to mention that there is a difference between the Fosse Broadway-style "jazz dancing" that started in the 1950s and the vernacular style originally known as jazz dancing (mainly tap) as seen in 1921's Shuffle Along - the Broadway show which was instrumental in the careers of Miss Baker, Paul Robeson, Eubie Blake, etc. And I don't know that I would exactly characterize Miss Baker's career as her being a stripper... But different strokes for different folks. Cheers, Shearonink (talk) 06:25, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Good editing has reasons. "Different strokes" isn't one of them. Neither is "inclusionist". Those are nonsense terms that substitute for thought. There's no such thing as inclusionist or deletionist. This isn't a football game where one chooses sides. Malik Shabazz is correct: Baker doesn't belong classified as a jazz singer when you compare her to others who are. I agree also about the inadequacy of the term Jazz Age. It's a literary term that doesn't mean much. Too vague, general, and abstract. Maybe English teachers and journalists are OK with it. I'm not.
 * When I signed-off with "different strokes for different folks" I was referring to your description of Miss Baker being a stripper. I disagree and that's ok.
 * By the way, I  agreed  with & with you - I said you were right about Miss Baker not being a jazz singer. People sometimes have different opinions about editing and content - coming to a consensus and editors changing their opinions is one of the great things about Wikipedia.  Cheers, Shearonink (talk) 15:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Inconsistency regarding Willie McGee
In this article, it states: "The honor she was paid spurred her to further her crusading efforts with the 'Save Willie McGee' rally after he was convicted of the 1948 beating death of a furniture shop owner in Trenton, New Jersey."

If you go over to the linked article on Willie McGee, there is no mention at all of anything to do with a beating death of a furniture shop owner. Are there (perhaps) two Willie McGees? The quoted sentence above does not have a reference, so it may not be entirely accurate. I'm not familiar with this topic, though, so I don't feel comfortable figuring out which is correct. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 01:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Based on My Grandfather's Execution, I think the link is correct but the content in the Baker article isn’t and should be changed and cited. Gleeanon409 (talk) 02:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've tagged the sentence as dubious. I will leave this discussion here for a bit to allow time for anyone to provide sources. If none are provided, then I will remove the sentence (or at least the link, since it's very possible there's another Willie McGee). ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 17:23, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I found a RS about Miss Baker and her involvement on behalf of Mr. McGee. It says nothing about a furniture store owner or New Jersey. I can't help, but think that this is somebody's idea of a joke. I'm going to change this article over to what the RS says. --A.S. Brown (talk) 05:16, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Adding my novel to the list of Josephine Baker "potrayals"
JOSEPHINE BAKER'S LAST DANCE by Sherry Jones, a novel published by Gallery Books/Simon and Schuster in December 2018, should be added to the list of works about Ms. Baker. (Full disclosure: I'm the author.) --Sherry Jones — Preceding unsigned comment added by CyberSmartWriting (talk • contribs) 00:20, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

American-French
Wouldn't it be more fitting to list her as American-French. She was a US citizen for almost half her life and while France was her adopted country for most of her life and that is where she made her career and Family, she did not abandon the US at all. She was very prominent in the US civil rights movement. She worked with the NAACP, spoke at the march on Washington. It even states that Coretta Scott King asked her to be the head of the movement after MLK's assassination.89.240.253.40 (talk) 14:07, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the current description "American-born French" is best. She was a French citizen. She renounced her U.S. citizenship. No one has claimed that she "abandoned" the U.S. It is custom, per Wiki, to list the subject's legal nationality in the lede. ExRat (talk) 01:07, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

"I have two loves"
The lead contains the sentence,
 * Baker once said: "I have two loves, my country and Paris."

which is sourced to an article on Al Jazeera, which contained the sentence
 * “I have two loves,” the artist once said, “my country and Paris.”

But isn't this formulation a bit inane? This is the literal translation of the first two lines of the chorus of her most famous song:
 * J'ai deux amours
 * Mon pays et Paris

Baker did not say this once, she sang it, many times. --Lambiam 09:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Offer by Coretta Scott King?
Is anyone aware of an independent source for the statement that "In 1968, [Baker] was offered unofficial leadership in the movement in the United States by Coretta Scott King, following Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination."? Seems that this claim may derive from statements in books by members of Baker's family, and has possibly been picked up either from there (or from Wikipedia?) by some other sources. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:35, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

The Coretta KIng Offer

 * Are there any published reports in French press that reflect Baker's reluctance to accept the leadership of the Civil Rights Movement primarily for safety reasons?--Radzsoleil (talk) 15:32, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Jean Claude
According to the page on Jean Claude Baker (Jean-Claude Julien Léon Tronville), there were 2 Jean-Claude Bakers. One was a member of the tribe and the other was an older person whom Baker met in 1943. It would be good to have some clarification on this. It was Jean-Claude Julien Léon Tronville who committed suicide in 2015. Francis Hannaway (talk) 17:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Sexuality Revisited
Since a previous discussion of Baker's sexuality is almost a decade old, and since it appears the article no longer reflects the consensus built in that discussion, I want to revive the topic with a fresh start.

My understanding of the previous consensus is that while many sources make a claim to her sexuality, as shown in that earlier talk, almost all, if not 100% of them when traced lead back to the biography of Jean-Claude Baker, whose biography is dubious.

However, some language affirming her bisexuality as fully accepted fact has made itself back into the article, all still with sources that uncritically quote the Jean-Claude Baker book. For example: "Baker was also involved in sexual liaisons, if not relationships, with Ada "Bricktop" Smith, French novelist Colette, and possibly Frida Kahlo.[68]" where source 68 is this article: http://www.glbtqarchive.com/arts/baker_josephine_A.pdf which, when you look at the citations, cites Jean-Claude's book, and a review of Jean-Claude's book, no additional sources.

I am going to make an attempt at an edit to be a bit more clear about her alleged bisexuality, basically trying to make it a 'meta' discussion within the article.

I presume there are biographies of her in French, since that's where she spent much of her life. I wonder if there is a way to collaborate with the Wikipedia French projects to try and get access to those sources? Maybe there's something in those sources that can add more clarity? In the meantime, discuss away. Sevey13 (talk) 01:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)


 * In the absence of any discussion, and in the absence of consensus from independent sources that don't trace back to Jean-Claude Baker, I'm going to remove the LGBT related tags from the article. If more information comes to light, let's add them back. Sevey13 (talk) 00:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Targee Street
This is a minor quibble, I know, but the paragraph on her childhood home refers to it as "212 Targee Street (known by some St. Louis residents as Johnson Street)" which sounds clumsy and makes little sense. From what I can discern, the street was renamed, but it's unclear when. It was definitely Targee Street in 1898 when Frankie Baker (no relation) shot her boyfriend in the same building, in the incident that inspired "Frankie and Johnny." I believe it became Johnson Street in the first few years of the century, probably before Josephine's family lived there, but I can't find a good source on that, or exactly when the rename occurred. The street, which ran North to South between 14th and 15th Streets, was bulldozed to create the Kiel Auditorium in 1934, and the site of that building is now in the heart of the Enterprise Center.

That sentence previously also put the street in the wrong neighborhood, Mill Creek Valley, which is several blocks west, but I corrected that. Google tells me that this very clumsy sentence, including the incorrect neighborhood, has been copied all over the internet. MD5353 (talk) 00:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

WW II
In September 1939, when France declared war on Germany ... She socialised with the Germans at embassies, ministries, night clubs, charming them while secretly gathering information.

After the declaration of war the German embassy in Paris was closed. How many Germans with knowledge of (secret or important) information worked at non-German embassies, ministries (in Paris of course ministries of the French Republic) or spent their time in night clubs in the enemy's capital? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.145.145 (talk) 07:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Rather than appearing at Carnegie Hall in 1973, I'm pretty sure Baker appeared at the PALACE THEATRE(47th&Broadway) in a vaudeville revue a-la Judy Garland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.23.5.10 (talk) 19:38, 2 February 2024 (UTC)