Talk:Josh White

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 00:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources, please
What is the source of your statement that White "fraternized with a number of radical left-wing activists."? JJ 01:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is exactly an NPOV issue, either the people he was with were radical left-wing activists or they were not. The article isn't referenced at all (so of course that quote isn't referenced), but if you feel the statement to be in error, remove it. Of course it would be best if opinionated statements like "radical" be referenced. The rest of it seems failry NPOV to me. But what do I know about this guy? Not much, so I can't bee of too much help really. BrokenSegue
 * "Radical left-wing" to one group (i.e. conservatives or "right-wing" folks, J. Edgar Hoover, or whoever) is "pro-human rights," "pro-racial equality," "pro-labor rights," etc. to another. Maybe some individuals working for these causes identified themselves with socialist or communist organizations who shared these goals, and maybe they didn't; but for many people against these things, they were all "communists," "radicals," or "rabble-rousers."  It's an understatement to say that 50-60 years ago in the U.S. things weren't as egalitarian as they are now.  Whatever the facts, the terminology should be NPOV.  Badagnani 22:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have had no response to my question, and I have, therefore, deleted the NPOV language. 66.82.9.89 01:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)Last comment was me, 66.82.9.89 13:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)This comment was by me, JJ 14:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC).

Editing and attributions
"!--Note: White's birth certificate, in the courthouse in Greenville, South Carolina, gives February 11, 1914 as his birth date. 1908 and 1915, which are given in some other sources, are, thus, incorrect.--" This and othe notes belong on the discussion page, not hidden in the article. --Yamara 02:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This might work as a footnote, as people will wonder which birth date is correct with incorrect ones floating out there in various sources. Badagnani 05:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Not an ad venue
Also, while I'm sure Wikipedia appreciates contributions from White's estate, this is not a venue for advertising. I doubt al the artist testimonials will survive suitability scrutiny. --Yamara 02:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's true that quotes usually aren't encyclopedic when presented in this fashion (though they're interesting). Some of them could be worked into the text to create a more contexualized article. I could see this being a featured article in the future, as we now have an expert on the subject working on the page. Badagnani 05:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice jam tonight
Other than that, nice jam tonight, guys. --Yamara 02:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a trio. Who's playing what instrument, though? Badagnani 05:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Origin of his songs
It seems to me that a good many of the songs White performed were not written by him, and/or were made famous also by others, such as Paul Robeson, Billie Holiday, et al. This should be noted in the article. Badagnani 05:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Dave Van Ronk
Should Dave Van Ronk be added among musicians who have been influenced by White? He apparently covered "One Meat Ball." Badagnani 18:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Manhasset, New York
Was he a resident of Manhasset, New York when he died? Or was he living somewhere else and he was just in a hospital in Manhasset? Badagnani 01:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Parents
Can we get something about his parents in the article? Badagnani 04:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. Badagnani 01:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Length
The article is full of information, but I believe it should read like an encyclopedia article, remaining within the length guidelines (formerly 30k but now accepted to be 30-50k). As of now, when one edits it, it gives the number of bytes as 85k. If people want further information, they can go to the published full-length biographies that are available in book form. Badagnani 04:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Artist Ad
Adding the Kingston Trio to the list of artists influenced. Shortly before the group's formation in 1957, founding member Bob Shane opened for White in Shane's home state, Hawaii. Shane attributes in print (Washburn and Johnston, Martin Guitars. Emmaus, PA: Rodale Press, 1997) both learning mastery of the guitar and the choice of Martin guitars as his preferred instrument to White on p. 171.

Great subject, awful quality
This very lengthy article about a fascinating man has exactly 2 footnotes, and reads as though it were written by one of Leon Trotsky's more excitable disciples. If the same standards of documentation were applied to this article as it stands today (11/12/07) which are routinely applied in many other parts of Wikipedia, this article would be virtually wiped out - and that would be a shame. It needs to be radically reworked, with a great deal more sourcing and less rhetoric and fairy tale, in order to rise to minimal Wikipedia standards. Douglas Barber 02:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Totally agree, but someone needs to take a lead on this. As it is, the article is almost completely useless as an encyclopedia article - it is far too long, the introduction (and much of the text) is very POV, and it lacks references.  How do we collectively make it into a worthwhile article ?  Can it be done without getting the agreement of whoever contributed all this material in the first place ?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Likewise totally agree. Completely POV and needs total rewrite.  96.232.212.61 (talk) 00:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of text
Why was so much text removed, all without comment, in these edits? Badagnani (talk) 00:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Article violates virtually every Wikipedia policy
Somebody is a frustrated music writer or biographer, because this is one of the most blatantly, shamefully POV and OR articles I've seen. The paragraph below is written in a florid style better suited to a book or magazine article, and is totally unsuitable for an encyclopedia:

The dusty dirt roads and towns of America's South in the 1920s were not always a safe place for an old blind black man with a young boy. Most days the boy was only fed one meal, and most nights he and his street singer would sleep in the cotton fields so as to safely hide from the Ku Klux Klan. However, on more than one occasion while sleeping in those fields, Joshua and his blind man were awakened with sounds of screams, shouts, and laughter in the near distance, as the boy would witness with horror and whisper his visions to the old man of the Klan tar and feathering black men, lynching them, and in one instance, burning a man at the stake. Amidst experiencing these terrifying life horrors as a child, his tough task masters cruelly demanded that he learn his trade quickly. Within a year he would soon learn all the street singers' repertoires, and soon thereafter begin mastering the various styles of all the guitarists he worked with until he would become the pioneer blues guitarist of the late 1920s and 1930s.

This is shamefully non-encyclopedic. This article needs a top-to-bottom rewrite to make it conform to encyclopedia writing, and not some purple-prose biography. --207.237.223.118 (talk) 03:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It can be fixed. The author of most of that seems to have been Douglas Yeager, the Archival biographer for the Josh White Estate, who I assume knows his stuff about White. Badagnani (talk) 08:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem has been finding an editor willing and able to take the drastic steps necessary to make the article more WP-worthy. Anyone who wants to do that has my full support.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Can we have more WikiBadges please?
Jeez guys, get your act together! Four little Wiki-editor-look-at-me-badges before even getting to the article? Get off your high horses and just fix the damn article if you think it's that bad. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.181.239.60 (talk • contribs)

Attempt to redirect to disambiguation page
I've reverted attempts by User:Geo Swan to redirect this page (on Josh White the singer) to a disambiguation page, which also refers to a journalist Josh White of uncertain notability. I've done this because it is evident to me that Josh White the singer - who, independently of the size of this article, has undoubtedly been recognised as a major figure in American popular music for many decades - is overwhelmingly more likely to be the subject of searches for a person of that name. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: I did not redirect this page to a disambiguation page.
 * I did redirect Josh White to his full name. I regarded that as a trivial change.  People looking for Josh White, the blues guy, still would have found his article.  I don't care whether "Josh White" redirects to "Joshua Daniel White", or vice versa.  I don't really see how it matters.  I think it was a serious mistake that there was no entry for White under his real name.
 * I also added a disambiguation hat -- which Ghmyrtle removed without explanation. I regard that as a serious mistake, and I have restored the hat.


 * If you check the "what links here" button a significant number of the articles that currently link to "Josh White" are intended to link to the journalist, not the Blues guy. Geo Swan (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A redirect of the "blues guy"'s article to his full name, by which he is not known, is not a trivial or good change. Badagnani (talk) 04:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I second Badagnani's comment strongly !!! Or else we'll soon have to find Muddy Waters under his real name McKinley Morganfield StefanWirz (talk) 08:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Apologies for my mistakes in the process - I was both tired and annoyed at the time! But the points remain valid, that the singer is the primary "Josh White", and if there is to be any disambiguation it should use, say, "Josh White (singer)" rather than his full name.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Legendary
Ok, so this article says that Josh White was "legendary"; like a unicorn I presume? --IRONY-POLICE (talk) 16:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Better than a unicorn, Josh White was for real. Considering all the trials and tribulations he went through during his life one understands that it took enormous amounts of determination, initiative and a clear mind to achieve what he achieved. He was as close to a musical and political super hero of the 20th century as you can get, and a decent, well educated and a nice person too. Because of the blacklisting from McCarthyism which ended only a few years before his death he was more famous outside USA, like here in Sweden, for example. Roger4927 (talk) 10:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Beyond brave
I found this very telling quote in a very valuable source, which shows how brave Josh White was. Libby Holman was a very beautiful white (jewish) woman who often spoke in very drastic and outspoken ways. As this quote shows she said things which were very controversial, but it was Josh White who took the big risk. He could have been beaten to death because of her way of confronting the racial views in that era.


 * "Libby and Josh were beyond brave, although perhaps she did not quite realize what she was taking on in 1940s America. When they started rehearsals for their first show in a New York club, she arrived at the front door and was welcomed. Josh was directed to the staff entrance round the back. Libby waited till the day they were due to open, after the owners had spent a vast amount on publicity, and told them she was not going to sing in their club until they changed their racial door policy. She won.


 * In Philadelphia, Josh was refused a room at the hotel in whose bar they sang nightly. Libby ranted and told them: ‘Take down the American flag outside and fly the fucking swastika, why don’t you!’


 * When they were told by officials that the US Army did not tolerate mixed shows, Libby replied: ‘Mixed? You mean boys and girls?’"

This quote should have been included in this article too, to show how Josh White was a very brave man, and risked a lot to confront the racial views in the 1940's, but I put it in the article about Libby Holman instead. The reasons, the Josh White article is already very long, the article about Libby Holman is very short and does not give the reader much insight into what kind of woman she was, how she talked and how she confronted racial views. So this quote is very valuable in the short article about Libby Holman, but the one who was really brave in that relation was Josh White. The people who got very upset over the constellation of a very beautiful white woman and a black man who travelled together, lived together and performed together would hardly have hurt her physically but they could have killed Josh White for daring to be in this relationship with her.

I hope people who are really interested in Josh White will also read the article about Libby Holman and I added the http://www.jewishquarterly.org/issuearchive/article5c9e.html?articleid=253 Jewish Quarterly source to the External links in the Josh White article.Roger491127 (talk) 10:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I added the piece about People's_Songs to the sentence "He also recorded songs of social and political protest with Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Burl Ives, and Lee Hays in their folk cooperative group the Almanac Singers and in the later group People's_Songs which consisted of the core of musicians and activists who formed Almanac Singers."

I have no reference for it right now but read the articles about Almanac Singers and People's_Songs and you will see that Josh White was a (part time) member of both groups.

I have been able to add a lot of references to this article already, using the internet. I have now bought the book "Josh White, Society Blues" by Elijah Wald and I have read the beginning. As I read further in this biography I will be able to add more references to the parts of this article which are about the 1940s and the rest of his life.

I have also influenced the editors of the article Greenwich Village to include a paragraph about Café Society and its importance. Roger491127 (talk) 03:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Material for future editing
http://www.menare.org/calendar.html

"Josh White, Sr., was a noted civil rights activist and folk musician who was considered the closest African American confidant to President Franklin D. Roosevelt—so much so, in fact, that Eleanor Roosevelt became godmother to young Josh White, Jr."

I plan to add a section about The Josh White family and the Roosevelts. I just need more referenced material about how the two families spent several Christmases and Thanksgiving holidays together at the White House, and Josh White's brother William took care of Eleanor Roosevelt all the years after FDR's death. It was a remarkable and unique relation between a presidential family and a black family from the south.Roger491127 (talk) 13:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Ooops, I just found out: "After the affair any remaining intimacy left their relationship. Eleanor soon thereafter established a separate house in Hyde Park at Valkill, and increasingly devoted herself to various social and political causes. For the rest of their lives, the Roosevelts' marriage was more of a political partnership than an intimate relationship.[30] The emotional break in their marriage was so severe that when FDR asked Eleanor in 1942—in light of his failing health—to come back home and live with him again, she refused.[27]"

So the question is when (before 1942?) and where (White house or Hyde Park) did these Christmases and Thanksgiving holidays take place?Roger491127 (talk) 14:15, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I just noted that there is already a section about the Josh White family and the Roosevelts, and that they spent holidays together at the Hyde Park residence. I hope I can add more references when I have read the biography by Elijah Wald, which Pete Seeger said is the most accurate biography about Josh White he had read.Roger491127 (talk) 19:23, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101230214040/http://www.woodsongs.com/showdetailspage.asp?SN=561 to http://www.woodsongs.com/showdetailspage.asp?SN=561

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Artists influenced
A long -- some might say absurdly long -- list of musicians is included without a shred of proof that they were influenced. I will contend that merely having recorded an artist's song doesn't rise to the level of influence. References are needed or this list needs to be dropped. Nicmart (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

On capitalization
Words or phrases on album covers may be printed in all uppercase letters, but this is a matter of graphic design, not editorial style. The titles of albums should be capitalized in the same style as any other works. Jwicklatz (talk) 19:11, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120306134934/http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=354 to http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=354
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131218120806/http://www.worldmusicsupply.com/ovation-guitars-history.html to http://www.worldmusicsupply.com/ovation-guitars-history.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121018224733/http://thephoenix.com/boston/movies/106560-hugh-hefner-playboy-activist-and-rebel/ to http://thephoenix.com/boston/movies/106560-hugh-hefner-playboy-activist-and-rebel/#ixzz1Mp7zLJQe

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External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on Josh White. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070608213942/http://www.authentichistory.com/ww2/music/19410000_Uncle_Sam_Says-Josh_White.html to http://www.authentichistory.com/ww2/music/19410000_Uncle_Sam_Says-Josh_White.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070608182007/http://www.authentichistory.com/ww2/music/19410000_Defense_Factory_Blues-Josh_White.html to http://www.authentichistory.com/ww2/music/19410000_Defense_Factory_Blues-Josh_White.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120114095137/http://toto.lib.unca.edu/sounds/piedmontblues/white.html to http://toto.lib.unca.edu/sounds/piedmontblues/white.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070610102156/http://guitarvideos.com/dvd/13090dvd.htm to http://guitarvideos.com/dvd/13090dvd.htm

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White and the Roosevelts
I know for a fact that there is no supporting evidence to this section. There are no documents whatsoever at the Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum (the official archives of the Franklin Roosevelt family and many of FDR's cabinet members) that support any of these claims. Either provide correct, verifiable sources, or delete all of the information regarding White and the Roosevelts entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by USArchivesTech (talk • contribs) 19:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)