Talk:Joshua Key (soldier)

Untitled
Someone deleted this page while I was editing it. I'll give my reason for it not being very good. I'm in the process of reading his book The Deserter's Tale (Which I also cite as my reference many times). So please, I am in the process of editing this page gradually. If, next week, it doesn't meet your standards, then delete it. However, I'm extremely tired right now, and I'll continue to edit this for the next week or so.

Don't delete this page, at least not at the moment.

Cam 04:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Climie.ca

I think the page might be improved by referring to his claims as claims instead of proven facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.216.166.243 (talk) 14:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

...
This page would be greatly improved if his claims were referred to as claims instead of facts...that is true. And yet, it would be improved far more, if we just call it what it is: Mr. Key is a poser, and a phony. Anyone who has ever served in combat arms knows he is making this stuff up. First off, who has ever fired an M16 Grenade Launcher? I've never even heard of one. Second, a simple check of publicly available records will show that the unit he claims to have been a part of wasn't in or near Fallujah at the time of the invasion. How then can he claim to have been in Fallujah witnessing executions during the battle? This isn't MASH...you don't just borrow a jeep and ride up the road to the next town to watch the battle...C'mon people...Do you really believe everything you read? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.110.76.20 (talk) 18:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is this nonsense included
Form the Controversy section

"Then, on March 27, 2007, Key's claims in that book were disputed by anonymous blog writer "GI Korea" (pseudonym) who claimed incorrectly that Key "became the first US soldier to flee to Canada and seek refugee status there since the Vietnam War." [18] The more established and not anonymous source, the Toronto Star, stated that Jeremy Hinzman, not Joshua Key, was "the first American Iraq war resister to seek refugee status in Canada...in January, 2004."[19] Information about Jeremy Hinzman and Brandon Hughey coming to Canada was already publicly available to "GI Korea," and already known worldwide (including Britain) on July 6, 2004, three years before "GI Korea" published his erroneous information;[20] and much press coverage of Hinzman being in Canada occurred within those years.[21][22][23] The anonymous "GI Korea" blog posting is used as the source of information that Key's claims have been widely disputed by other members of his unit, as well as many other Soldiers who served in units near Key's in Iraq.[18]"

Please explain why someone devoted an entire paragraph to the discrediting of a single blog source, in a way that is very non-encyclopedic and reminiscent of the kind of thing children do to other children? The section is awful, poorly written, and overly defensive. Edit it or I will, and by "I will" I mean I'll take the whole section out as it's currently pretty worthless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.204.29.215 (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Greetings 68.204.29.215 (talk)


 * If you look at the history of this article, you will find that many editors have repeatedly used the blog posting by "GI Korea" as a source of information. This has happened so many times that it eventually became evident that the widespread reliance on this source was a story in itself.  Hence, there was a credibility match between "GI Korea" and Joshua Key.  That credibility match is important because the anonymous "GI Korea" blog posting is used by some as a source of information that Key's claims have been widely disputed by other members of his unit, as well as many other Soldiers who served in units near Key's in Iraq.


 * In response to your request, I have rewritten the section to reflect and explain the above reality.


 * I have also responded to your request to write in a way that is more "encyclopedic."


 * Above, you used the words, "overly defensive." The word "overly" is a value judgement, and therefore is subjective. Helpful in this discussion is the article on Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia. I would encourage you to read that article. Thank you.


 * Boyd Reimer (talk) 16:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Today, after a more careful reading of Wikipedia policy, I changed my mind. I agree that this section does not provide the required references.:

Key to this discussion are these links and their content: Verifiability, Notability

First point

No references were given that this controversy is noteworthy (See Notability). Therefore, despite the fact that the controversy may exist, it is nevertheless not noteworthy for an encyclopedia entry for Joshua Key, and not sourced from a "reliable source."

This Wikipedia policy - Verifiability - contains this quote (bold printing was added by me):

"'The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.'"

In that sense (described in the above quote), the particular "controversy" (described in the content that I removed) is not "verifiable" / "noteworthy."

Also, in that sense (described above), the "GI Korea blog" source is not "verifiable" / "noteworthy." (in that sense of the word)

Second point

Also, "GI Korea blog" source is not "reliable" because of the below:

Together with author Lawrence Hill, Joshua Key co-authored the book, The Deserter's Tale: The Story of an Ordinary Soldier Who Walked Away from the War in Iraq. Then, on March 27, 2007, Key's claims in that book were challenged by anonymous blog writer "GI Korea" (pseudonym). That challenge set up a credibility match between "GI Korea" and Joshua Key. That credibility match is important because the anonymous "GI Korea" blog posting is used by many as a source of information that Key's claims have been widely disputed by other members of his unit, as well as many other soldiers who served in units near Key's in Iraq.

In the anonymous blog posting, "GI Korea" claimed that Key "became the first US soldier to flee to Canada and seek refugee status there since the Vietnam War." However, the Toronto Star, stated that Jeremy Hinzman, not Joshua Key, was "the first American Iraq war resister to seek refugee status in Canada...in January, 2004." Information about Jeremy Hinzman and Brandon Hughey coming to Canada was already publicly available to "GI Korea," and already known worldwide (including Britain) on July 6, 2004, almost three years before "GI Korea" published his erroneous information; and much press coverage of Hinzman being in Canada occurred within those years. This casts doubt on the quality of research done by "GI Korea".

On the other hand, Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board "deemed [Key] credible."

About Jan 1, 2010 Edit
Greetings Bobstuart:

The reason I deleted your Jan 1, 2010 contribution is based on the following Wikipedia policies. Please read them to learn more about the policies of Wikipedia, thank you:

1. Click here to see the following quote in # 3, which says that Wikipedia is not a soapbox for the following: "Scandal mongering or gossip. Articles about living people are required to meet an especially high standard, as they may otherwise be libellous or infringe the subjects' right to privacy. Articles should not be written purely to attack the reputation of another person."

2. Click here to see the following quote: "Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts"

3. Click here to find the following quote: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth&mdash;that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."

It may or may not be true that you have a legitimate conflict with Joshua, but Wikipedia is not the place for it. Please find another place to sort out that conflict. Thank you.

Peace, Boyd

Boyd Reimer (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Joshua Key. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090215031150/http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=16d90480-ccf6-4e3d-9848-ae35143e7685&p=1 to http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=16d90480-ccf6-4e3d-9848-ae35143e7685&p=1

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 00:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Joshua Key. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://newsfix.ca/2009/06/03/hazing-persecution-cited-in-us-army-deserters-bid-to-stay-in-canada/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120224103941/http://newsfix.ca/2009/06/03/protesters-want-war-resisters-to-stay-in-canada/ to http://newsfix.ca/2009/06/03/protesters-want-war-resisters-to-stay-in-canada/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:45, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Joshua Key. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080424022149/http://www.lawrencehill.com/the_deserters_tale.html to http://www.lawrencehill.com/the_deserters_tale.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)